What's up down the road (Gold Coast Suns discussion)?

[briztoon]

Disappointing news on AFL site that Scrimshaw and Brodie could be looking for new homes next year.
This would be a major disaster for the club for the near future.
We lose two players who we thought would take us forward and also highly unlikely to get any where
near the compensation the boys cost us picks 6 and 9.
Nothing positive in this scenario.
Simply another kick in the guts!

brodie's uncle is carlton's national recruiting manager. well ****.

 

[SizeMatters]

well known in AFL circles

 

[jackess]

Gold Coast have averaged 61 points per game and are gonna lose their only decent forward.

 

[POBT]

I’m a firm believer that culture is set by the group and, first and foremost, requires positive leadership. The Suns will need to ask themselves which of their coaches and older players will drive the sort of culture they want to see. It isn’t enough to simply get a bunch of young blokes in and hope it turns out ok. Do they have the sort of leaders who will create the environment they are seeking? Do they even know what sort of environment they want? There’s not a cookie cutter for this sort of thing - the Lions culture wouldn’t work at Sydney and vice versa. It has to be unique to the particular club environment.

We had years of good people at the club who either didn’t notice the culture eroding or didn’t have a strong vision for what they wanted it to be. It was a slow process - we probably didn’t notice it strongly until 2013. Leppa was a good man (and arguably a good coach) who either didn’t have the vision for our culture or didn’t know how to implement change. We then never really gave him the right people to help him out.

I think it took Fagan to come in and assess what he wanted the footy side of the club to look like culturally. Then he found and empowered the people in the club to join him in driving cultural change. Most notably, he didn’t necessarily just clear the club out and start again. But he had the advantage of Swanny having been in the chair for a period and being able to provide quick intel. And he had a fellow newbie in Noble which meant his footy manager was going to support engineering change.

I wonder if Dew has the life experience to assess the Suns and recognise what their unique culture needs to be. Maybe Evans does but I do think the footy dept culture is a bit different and isn’t necessarily a CEO thing. The little bits I’ve heard from the Suns is that Dew came in with a very fixed view on how things needed to be done. I don’t think that helps.

That’s why I worry about a “clear the decks” approach. To me, he needs to find and exploit his pockets of “cultural excellence”. They will be there - it might be a Swallow type but there will be guys who are in it for the right reasons. You can’t just impose your will culturally - the group has to own it.

But to do that, you have to sell them a vision of where you are going. And you can’t afford to disenfranchise your good people by making severe changes too quickly. If Fagan had come in, delisted half the team, sacked the assistant coaches and demanded “my way or the highway”, I’m not sure Beams, Zorko, Lester, Andrews, Bundy, Mitch Robbo etc would have been as quick to follow him. And if Fagan didn’t have them onside, then he would have failed to change the culture, despite all good intentions.

I know for a fact there were things at the Lions Fagan identified from day one that needed significant change but he picked his time and let those changes come naturally. I also know that there were things that he proposed to change two years ago that he’s now happy with because the person/situation has changed for the better. That’s the benefit of having a long term vision and working towards it rather than a scorched earth approach.

As easy it is for Dew to “cut and cut hard”, I’m not convinced it is the right way of going about things. I think he’s better putting in place incremental change. Moreover though, does he truly know what the right “Suns culture” is?

 

[irel]

I’m a firm believer that culture is set by the group and, first and foremost, requires positive leadership. The Suns will need to ask themselves which of their coaches and older players will drive the sort of culture they want to see. It isn’t enough to simply get a bunch of young blokes in and hope it turns out ok. Do they have the sort of leaders who will create the environment they are seeking? Do they even know what sort of environment they want? There’s not a cookie cutter for this sort of thing - the Lions culture wouldn’t work at Sydney and vice versa. It has to be unique to the particular club environment.

We had years of good people at the club who either didn’t notice the culture eroding or didn’t have a strong vision for what they wanted it to be. It was a slow process - we probably didn’t notice it strongly until 2013. Leppa was a good man (and arguably a good coach) who either didn’t have the vision for our culture or didn’t know how to implement change. We then never really gave him the right people to help him out.

I think it took Fagan to come in and assess what he wanted the footy side of the club to look like culturally. Then he found and empowered the people in the club to join him in driving cultural change. Most notably, he didn’t necessarily just clear the club out and start again. But he had the advantage of Swanny having been in the chair for a period and being able to provide quick intel. And he had a fellow newbie in Noble which meant his footy manager was going to support engineering change.

I wonder if Dew has the life experience to assess the Suns and recognise what their unique culture needs to be. Maybe Evans does but I do think the footy dept culture is a bit different and isn’t necessarily a CEO thing. The little bits I’ve heard from the Suns is that Dew came in with a very fixed view on how things needed to be done. I don’t think that helps.

That’s why I worry about a “clear the decks” approach. To me, he needs to find and exploit his pockets of “cultural excellence”. They will be there - it might be a Swallow type but there will be guys who are in it for the right reasons. You can’t just impose your will culturally - the group has to own it.

But to do that, you have to sell them a vision of where you are going. And you can’t afford to disenfranchise your good people by making severe changes too quickly. If Fagan had come in, delisted half the team, sacked the assistant coaches and demanded “my way or the highway”, I’m not sure Beams, Zorko, Lester, Andrews, Bundy, Mitch Robbo etc would have been as quick to follow him. And if Fagan didn’t have them onside, then he would have failed to change the culture, despite all good intentions.

I know for a fact there were things at the Lions Fagan identified from day one that needed significant change but he picked his time and let those changes come naturally. I also know that there were things that he proposed to change two years ago that he’s now happy with because the person/situation has changed for the better. That’s the benefit of having a long term vision and working towards it rather than a scorched earth approach.

As easy it is for Dew to “cut and cut hard”, I’m not convinced it is the right way of going about things. I think he’s better putting in place incremental change. Moreover though, does he truly know what the right “Suns culture” is?

I agree entirely with your summation and thus why I believe Lester is still our list. However you may not be giving Dew enough credit why he has gone implementing the "scorched earth" strategy. He may have assessed that the players at his disposal such as Scrimshaw, May, Hall etc... simply do not have the emotional or psychological resilience or intelligence and fortitude to provide the support for Dew's vision. However time will provide the answers. In 24 months we will assess and deem it a success or failure. I do appreciate another list development failure at the Suns could mean catastrophe.

 

[M Malice]

What is culture in a footy club? Is it complicated?

Pretty simple IMO, it's empathy, tolerance and togetherness. I noticed on one of the post GF footy shows the West Coast motto/culture trademark was the 3 Fs ie. Family, Friends, Flags. Simple and straight to the point.

 

[Nuggo]

Defining Culture has to go further. Creating Culture is determining what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. Once everybody is clear on this and why it is important for success of the goals set then leaders need to show the way and encourage everybody else to conform. When individuals do not conform the leaders need to stop their actions, refer them back to what is acceptable and what is not and why everybody needs to conform. Should it continue then decisions need to be made as whether that individual is the right fit. The grey area is talent versus non conformance.

 

[Gromma]

I agree entirely with your summation and thus why I believe Lester is still our list. However you may not be giving Dew enough credit why he has gone implementing the "scorched earth" strategy. He may have assessed that the players at his disposal such as Scrimshaw, May, Hall etc... simply do not have the emotional or psychological resilience or intelligence and fortitude to provide the support for Dew's vision. However time will provide the answers. In 24 months we will assess and deem it a success or failure. I do appreciate another list development failure at the Suns could mean catastrophe.

You seem to suggest the problems were created before Dews time. No. It's by the wholesale changes made this year. For years we accept this idea that players have to go to another club to get a better fit. That just highlights the inadequacies of the club IMO. The 3 players you mention are not a good example of players that lack "emotional or psychological resilience" either. May? Seriously? Hall? One of the hardest gut running players in the AFL and Scrim, a 20yo who has overcome frustrating set backs and stepped up to be a match winner in TAC cup final and important NEAFL games. Dew is no psychologist and the club has a part timer that flies up from Sydney so if they are making those decisions based on your theory they need to look in the mirror. Good clubs only exit players when their capabilities don't match AFL standard or for cap reasons.

 

[jackess]

You seem to suggest the problems were created before Dews time. No. It's by the wholesale changes made this year. For years we accept this idea that players have to go to another club to get a better fit. That just highlights the inadequacies of the club IMO. The 3 players you mention are not a good example of players that lack "emotional or psychological resilience" either. May? Seriously? Hall? One of the hardest gut running players in the AFL and Scrim, a 20yo who has overcome frustrating set backs and stepped up to be a match winner in TAC cup final and important NEAFL games. Dew is no psychologist and the club has a part timer that flies up from Sydney so if they are making those decisions based on your theory they need to look in the mirror. Good clubs only exit players when their capabilities don't match AFL standard or for cap reasons.

Gut running to lay a tackle and defend is a lot tougher than gut running to get easy touches and kick goals. Hall has to do both.

 

[briztoon]

You seem to suggest the problems were created before Dews time. No. It's by the wholesale changes made this year. For years we accept this idea that players have to go to another club to get a better fit. That just highlights the inadequacies of the club IMO. The 3 players you mention are not a good example of players that lack "emotional or psychological resilience" either. May? Seriously? Hall? One of the hardest gut running players in the AFL and Scrim, a 20yo who has overcome frustrating set backs and stepped up to be a match winner in TAC cup final and important NEAFL games. Dew is no psychologist and the club has a part timer that flies up from Sydney so if they are making those decisions based on your theory they need to look in the mirror. Good clubs only exit players when their capabilities don't match AFL standard or for cap reasons.

Gromma what exactly is your relationship with Scrimshaw? Family or Friend?

 

[Clarkythelion]

What is culture in a footy club? Is it complicated?

Pretty simple IMO, it's empathy, tolerance and togetherness. I noticed on one of the post GF footy shows the West Coast motto/culture trademark was the 3 Fs ie. Family, Friends, Flags. Simple and straight to the point.

and they copied from the All Blacks - senior players clean up the dressing room. I also like the idea that West coast have of not wearing sunglasses at member's events so as to appear more open. Sydney's is also easy, their leadership has a "No Dickheads" policy and they follow that.

 

[Clarkythelion]

You seem to suggest the problems were created before Dews time. No. It's by the wholesale changes made this year. For years we accept this idea that players have to go to another club to get a better fit. That just highlights the inadequacies of the club IMO. The 3 players you mention are not a good example of players that lack "emotional or psychological resilience" either. May? Seriously? Hall? One of the hardest gut running players in the AFL and Scrim, a 20yo who has overcome frustrating set backs and stepped up to be a match winner in TAC cup final and important NEAFL games. Dew is no psychologist and the club has a part timer that flies up from Sydney so if they are making those decisions based on your theory they need to look in the mirror. Good clubs only exit players when their capabilities don't match AFL standard or for cap reasons.

I don't think the Gold coast is cleaning decks at all, they are being raided.You read plenty of media about a Tasmanian team some day. the TV rights are for 18 clubs, for the average punter doing the math that means like the media often says the Suns become the Devils. Brisbane had the Go Home 5 and the poor Gold Coast have the, Captains Never Stay. I've watch a lot of suns matches pretty much all of them this year as I only get 3 matches a week on Free to Air up on my farm and Steven May is the last guy standing, he hates loosing and even when they are being flogged he is fighting to the end. If he is a cultural problem then there are other issues.

 

[WhiteLionFeva]

While the elements of a good "culture' in a sporting team would appear to be just the things all human beings might be expected to understand and employ in their daily lives (decency, respect, humility, tolerance, compassion, fairnes, honesty etc), a lot of people, including footballers, for whatever reason, don't understand or have not been taught the importance of those qualities and need educating in them, individually and collectively. The idea that a club has a bad culture or no culture is just another way of saying they haven't handled that process well, either at the time a player enters the club environment or later. I don't believe clubs themselves have good or bad culture, just good or bad processes. Having said that, a few players just never get the balance right, regardless of how well the club has managed them. Those players generally get moved on.

 

[Gromma]

Gromma what exactly is your relationship with Scrimshaw? Family or Friend?

Despite the changes this year, Suns I believe are focusing on all the right areas to build the club into a stong one but they have to own the reasons why players choose to leave as not a player or system problem. They are the ones who can best control the outcome. From all media Ive seen, I think that is what they are doing and they are putting the right resources in place so its all good. Thats my main point here. It doesnt matter who I am.

 

[Clarkythelion]

Culture - its everything you say and every little thing you do.

If you ever get a chance have a read of a book Peak Performance. This writers are from Saatchi and Saatchi and they set out to find why some companies has sustained success and couldn't really nail the answer so they went and looked at all the great sporting clubs of the world. New Zealand All Blacks, Chicago Bulls, Manchester united and so on that had been on top or near the top for long periods of time. Culture was the answer and they looked at the lessons of those teams to see if it could be adapted to business. The cleaning of the dressing rooms by the team was an All Black's thing and how they embraced young players and developed them within that culture. West cost clean their dressing room so does the Japanese world cup soccer team.

I believe Brisbane's culture changed because we finally had a united vision from management and the football department, the players saw one single unique vision and they brought into that. The players helped develop that, they became participants like putting the jerseys on together before the match just little action to demonstrate a unified team.

The Suns had their clean out off the field last season and unfortunately still had a crap season this one with all that travel while the turmoil was meant to be settling down. As a result players are jumping off what they see as sinking ship. The Sun's answers start with off the field over this trade/draft/pre-season and the messages sent out to the competition. It turned for Brisbane most in the second season and i think the suns can do it as a club. I hope they do Queensland needs to successful clubs to get the kids choose Aussie Rules.

 

[Gromma]

I don't think the Gold coast is cleaning decks at all, they are being raided.You read plenty of media about a Tasmanian team some day. the TV rights are for 18 clubs, for the average punter doing the math that means like the media often says the Suns become the Devils. Brisbane had the Go Home 5 and the poor Gold Coast have the, Captains Never Stay. I've watch a lot of suns matches pretty much all of them this year as I only get 3 matches a week on Free to Air up on my farm and Steven May is the last guy standing, he hates loosing and even when they are being flogged he is fighting to the end. If he is a cultural problem then there are other issues.

Yes but they are being raided because they have got good talent that arent being handled the right way. Bris has good talent but arent being raided right?

 

[Clarkythelion]

Yes but they are being raided because they have got good talent that arent being handled the right way. Bris has good talent but arent being raided right?

The Rugby League have had the Titans there now an they struggle for crowds and players. Before them they had other interactions of a national team that failed. Soccer had Gold Coast United and Aussie rules originally had the Bears there. The issues of players being handled and good support goes far beyond the Club and the AFL probably unfair to think its all about the Suns when no other sport has cracked success their either. Our Brisbane success is a 2 year thing just now so we will see and its no secret it came from you guys in a large part with ****.

 

[chopperduck]

Yes but they are being raided because they have got good talent that arent being handled the right way. Bris has good talent but arent being raided right?

Us not being raided is a very very recent change and one that has happened since we changed our culture and made the club a place the players want to be a part of. That isnt something that is easy to do and is a lot more than just looking after the players. Non traditional footy states also start with a handicap in getting on top of these types of problems. Whilst Gold Coast is a nice place to live, the pull of the spot light and big name clubs is something hard to counter.

 

[irel]

Yes but they are being raided because they have got good talent that arent being handled the right way. Bris has good talent but arent being raided right?

That's not quite correct. We are aware of clubs attempting raids on our young draftees. Essendon agitating even after Rayner signed an extension trying to tempt and perhaps destabilize, Geelong did their hardest sell to Witherden prior to him extending with Brisbane. Also prior to Starcevich extending both WA clubs attempted a smash and grab. Last attempt at raiding our pool by West Coast resulted in Elliot Yeo leaving and it was attributed Yeo's decision to leave centered on our toxic culture under a different leadership group at the time. Similar circumstances three years later Starcevich decides to reject the overtures, attributed in his decision the strong cultural dynamics that exist currently at our club. As already stated Queensland clubs are constant targets especially by the Vic clubs.
We are still being raided and will continue to be. Simply the numbers and the system is stacked against the Northern clubs, so the argument that clubs don't let good talent leave is flawed when it comes to The Suns and the Lions.

 

[Gromma]

The Rugby League have had the Titans there now an they struggle for crowds and players. Before them they had other interactions of a national team that failed. Soccer had Gold Coast United and Aussie rules originally had the Bears there. The issues of players being handled and good support goes far beyond the Club and the AFL probably unfair to think its all about the Suns when no other sport has cracked success their either. Our Brisbane success is a 2 year thing just now so we will see and its no secret it came from you guys in a large part with ****.

Yes agree the GC is not the ideal city to draw sports audiences but a couple of stats I think are interesting...Suns get bigger crowds than NRL teams ever got and the number of kids at Auskick are more than SA and Tas combined. Strangely as well Ive always thought good stadiums where cricket is played over the summer also provide a familiar surrounding that people are more likely to go back to so thats a positive for metricon as well now they will host internationals.

 

[Gromma]

Us not being raided is a very very recent change and one that has happened since we changed our culture and made the club a place the players want to be a part of. That isnt something that is easy to do and is a lot more than just looking after the players. Non traditional footy states also start with a handicap in getting on top of these types of problems. Whilst Gold Coast is a nice place to live, the pull of the spot light and big name clubs is something hard to counter.

Yes agree and whats also interesting now is because Lions have changed their culture they are not only keeping players but players want to go there.

 

[Dodongo]

This is a new start for the Gold Coast - a reset. Dodongo can see it working out for them this time as they have better personnel off the field in place.

 

[Dodongo]

That's not quite correct. We are aware of clubs attempting raids on our young draftees. Essendon agitating even after Rayner signed an extension trying to tempt and perhaps destabilize, Geelong did their hardest sell to Witherden prior to him extending with Brisbane. Also prior to Starcevich extending both WA clubs attempted a smash and grab. Last attempt at raiding our pool by West Coast resulted in Elliot Yeo leaving and it was attributed Yeo's decision to leave centered on our toxic culture under a different leadership group at the time. Similar circumstances three years later Starcevich decides to reject the overtures, attributed in his decision the strong cultural dynamics that exist currently at our club. As already stated Queensland clubs are constant targets especially by the Vic clubs.
We are still being raided and will continue to be. Simply the numbers and the system is stacked against the Northern clubs, so the argument that clubs don't let good talent leave is flawed when it comes to The Suns and the Lions.

This is why off the field that GC and Brisbane need to look after each other in the trade period and draft etc.

 

[Suns of Anarchy]

I'm actually quite buoyant with what is happening at the footy club despite all of the negativity in the media.
The list cuts have been deep but It's something that really needed to be done. It's not like we've been 9th-12th recently with a handy list and a new coach has gone overboard on arrival. The truth of the matter is that prior to this season we won 16 out of a possible 66 games and that was with Ablett, Prestia, Saad and others all playing good footy.

Dew has now had 12 months to look at the list in depth. He came with a defensive mindset and despite having a very weak midfield, we managed to have less kicked against us than the previous 4 years despite the ball coming in relentlessly into our D50.
One thing that would have stuck out like a sore thumb to Dew was the lack of leadership within the group. You only have to watch us in the past when things start to go pear shape during quarters, periods of the game. We had no one that stood up to steady the ship, take control & really our captains in Ablett, Lynch and May aren't/weren't great leaders. As for the skill level, Dew attempted to implement a kicking / marking game but abandoned that when we couldn't hit simple targets 20 metres away or keep possession.

The right people in Evans, Haines, Cameron have vast experience in building a footy club. They wanted Stewy Dew and even Paul Roos wanted him to take over at Melbourne. They all like what they see and many of the younger players rave about him and what he's attempting to bring in.
We also can't afford another year of the Lynch style circus that on a weekly basis sucked the life and energy out of the place. I believe the club wants May to remain but if he doesn't want to commit long term then we should move him on sooner rather than later to avoid another circus next year.

It's a tough gig being a Suns fan but there's finally light at the end of a long tunnel I believe. We will draft some top end talent that will remain if we get it right now. State league players that are mature and will improve our 16-22. Horlin Smith, Ellis and Miles who have big bodies and will at least provide some rotation assistance to Swallow, Lyons, Ainsworth, Bowes, Brodie, Miller etc.

I just hope that Dew and the club get some clear air to build a culture where the tail no longer wags the dog.

 

[AFLQLD]

Suns of Anarchy probably got a lot if the realities spot on here. The Suns are quite simply going back to the beginning and starting again, this time with a higher certainty of getting it right because the off field management is going to be far more hard line I think. The last half decade they got plenty wrong, not that we can talk if you look at our experiences before Fagan and Noble arrived.

Dew can coach and will be looking at developing a core group to build around over four or five years. May leaving would probably be a good thing culturally, a complete fresh start might be better than keeping talent that can’t quite commit fully.

What they will need most are a few calm older heads to allow the young talent to flourish. I hope they use their state league pick wisely and get the right fit for the club.

Unlike some here, I don’t really hold any grudges or dislike for Gold Coast. If they gel grow football in Qld it is a good benefit.