Who will finish higher - St Kilda, Melbourne or Hawthorn

[Bazza97]

Most confident with the Saints finishing higher than the Dees and the Hawks.

Think they'll start to score quite heavily by next year such is their marking power inside 50 (finished 3rd on average marks inside 50 per game).

Contested ball is a slight concern (I think they finished 15th for the average amount of contested ball won per game this year) but they should improve this area somewhat next year with Armitage I believe has had no interruptions to his pre season so far unlike last year and there's also the additions of Steele and Stevens which improves the depth in that area and then players like Acres and Gresham will get more midfield minutes as well but it remains to be seen how well they cement themselves in the midfield next year.

However, in saying that, I don't think the Saints need to be one of the best contested sides in the competition to reach it's potential as a side in premiership contention. I reckon this is because their strengths on the outside could outweigh their ability on the inside permitting they're not blown out of the water in the contested ball stat. It is their quick ball movement and transition which I think will suit their more than potent forward line immensely and possibly eliminate the shortcomings they may have on the inside.

Also the Saints have made improvements to their backline with the additions of Brown and Carlisle for next year. Both of these players will help more so to the structure of the team than their individual output as the Saints have been undersized for quite a few years now and this should allow Dempster to play a less accountable role on the best tall forwards and more so as a third tall with the ability to intercept.

Personally, I have the Saints in my top 4 next year (3rd to be precise) which is very high but I think they've got the ability to reach their potential sooner than some may think and I do believe the top 4 is a pretty open shop IMO and you can say the same about Melbourne but I do reckon the Saints may get in first and possibly have a more immediate impact than the Dees.

 

[Trav 20]

Most confident with the Saints finishing higher than the Dees and the Hawks.

Think they'll start to score quite heavily by next year such is their marking power inside 50 (finished 3rd on average marks inside 50 per game).

Contested ball is a slight concern (I think they finished 15th for the average amount of contested ball won per game this year) but they should improve this area somewhat next year with Armitage I believe has had no interruptions to his pre season so far unlike last year and there's also the additions of Steele and Stevens which improves the depth in that area and then players like Acres and Gresham will get more midfield minutes as well but it remains to be seen how well they cement themselves in the midfield next year.

However, in saying that, I don't think the Saints need to be one of the best contested sides in the competition to reach it's potential as a side in premiership contention. I reckon this is because their strengths on the outside could outweigh their ability on the inside permitting they're not blown out of the water in the contested ball stat. It is their quick ball movement and transition which I think will suit their more than potent forward line immensely and possibly eliminate the shortcomings they may have on the inside.

Also the Saints have made improvements to their backline with the additions of Brown and Carlisle for next year. Both of these players will help more so to the structure of the team than their individual output as the Saints have been undersized for quite a few years now and this should allow Dempster to play a less accountable role on the best tall forwards and more so as a third tall with the ability to intercept.

Personally, I have the Saints in my top 4 next year (3rd to be precise) which is very high but I think they've got the ability to reach their potential sooner than some may think and I do believe the top 4 is a pretty open shop IMO and you can say the same about Melbourne but I do reckon the Saints may get in first and possibly have a more immediate impact than the Dees.

Contested ball was king again in 2016.

Here is a list of the top 5 clubs for CP in 2016.

1. Sydney
2. Adelaide
3. GWS
4. Bulldogs
5. Geelong

No's 1 and 4 played off in the GF.

No's 1, 3, 4, and 5 played off in the Preliminary Finals for a right to play in the GF.

No.2 played off in a Semi Final against No. 1, who made it to the GF.

All 5 won finals.

So CP is a very sound metric when evaluating performance.

As you correctly point out St Kilda finished 15 for CP, behind Brisbane, Gold Coast, Freo, etc.

Melbourne finished 6, which augurs well for the midfield they're developing. They averaged 15 CP's per game more than the Saints.

The Saints have recruited two mids who couldn't make their respective teams. Why you think the Saint's midfield can catapult the team to a top 4 berth baffles me. The evidence that their midfield can suddenly start winning inside footy across the ground just isn't there.

There's far more evidence that the Dees' developing midfield, along with Lewis and Hibberd, can make that sort of leap.

Each to their own, of course.

 

[joop]

Contested ball was king again in 2016.

Here is a list of the top 5 clubs for CP in 2016.

1. Sydney
2. Adelaide
3. GWS
4. Bulldogs
5. Geelong

No's 1 and 4 played off in the GF.

No's 1, 3, 4, and 5 played off in the Preliminary Finals for a right to play in the GF.

No.2 played off in a Semi Final against No. 1, who made it to the GF.

All 5 won finals.

So CP is a very sound metric when evaluating performance.

As you correctly point out St Kilda finished 15 for CP, behind Brisbane, Gold Coast, Freo, etc.

Melbourne finished 6, which augurs well for the midfield they're developing. They averaged 15 CP's per game more than the Saints.

The Saints have recruited two mids who couldn't make their respective teams. Why you think the Saint's midfield can catapult the team to a top 4 berth baffles me. The evidence that their midfield can suddenly start winning inside footy across the ground just isn't there.

There's far more evidence that the Dees' developing midfield, along with Lewis and Hibberd, can make that sort of leap.

Each to their own, of course.

Lol. Off season, trav20s favourite part of the year. The hope, the optimism.

 

[Pessimistic]

I'm thinking they will start alphabetically

 

[Trav 20]

Lol. Off season, trav20s favourite part of the year. The hope, the optimism.

Lol. Joop having scoffed at suggestions 12 months ago that Gawn was on his way to being the premier ruck in the competition still can't refute sound analysis or add to the debate.

His default position - scoff, add nothing, run away.

 

[jackenny]

So many things wrong with this post.

Of course Fyfe and Clangerfield miss targets, but they have so many other attributes that elevate their game it's not funny.

I don't rate Jones "so low". I just rate him differerently to YOU, because we have different metrics. It's possible I rate him higher than you even with a lower rating. Our scales have different values. Needless to say, he's in both of our "core group".

To even suggest I rate Hogan as a bordeline player is stupid. Especially after I told you what I thought of him.

I rate an A-grader as AA. Not AA in one year, but consistent AA output. Max Gawn is not an A-grader. He's had one A-grade year, but for me a player needs at least two A- grade years in a row to be considered an A-grader.

You set the bar so low it's ridiculous. A core player isn't necessarily an A-grader.

Right now I consider that the MFC has one A-grader and that's Lewis. We have many B-graders and a heap who may become A-grade in time, but only one bona-fide A-grader.

Naturally enough, you can please yourself.

How many times by 'your metric' did you say a person needs to win All-Australian to be considered an A-grade player? Minimum of twice in a row.

Who did you say is an A-grader? Jordan Lewis.

How many times has Jordan Lewis won All-Australian? Once.

Your metric is clearly flawed, mate.

Merry Christmas.

 

[joop]

Lol. Joop having scoffed at suggestions 12 months ago that Gawn was on his way to being the premier ruck in the competition still can't refute sound analysis or add to the debate.

His default position - scoff, add nothing, run away.

If you want to talk about Gawn mate then take it to the relevant thread.
I'm actually amazed that despite our aging list, contested ball numbers amongst other things we managed to finish 2 games ahead of you. Although that was because of easy fixture right? Beating up on teams like Essendon and Carlton? The same teams you guys couldn't beat? It kills you that we bottomed out and have already gone past you.

 

[Trav 20]

How many times by 'your metric' did you say a person needs to win All-Australian to be considered an A-grade player? Minimum of twice in a row.

Who did you say is an A-grader? Jordan Lewis.

How many times has Jordan Lewis won All-Australian? Once.

Your metric is clearly flawed, mate.

Merry Christmas.

Good pickup.

Clearly, unless you're an idiot, an AA "type" season is required. But yes, my definitions are too rigid. I'd rather this be the case than stating Schoenmakers is a B-grader and look a complete fool.

Most footy pundits agree with who's in the conversation.

But yeah, you got me to expand, so well done you.

 

[Trav 20]

If you want to talk about Gawn mate then take it to the relevant thread.
I'm actually amazed that despite our aging list, contested ball numbers amongst other things we managed to finish 2 games ahead of you. Although that was because of easy fixture right? Beating up on teams like Essendon and Carlton? The same teams you guys couldn't beat? It kills you that we bottomed out and have already gone past you.

What really amuses me. And I mean seriously amuses me, is that you've beaten us when we've been utter crap, all the way back to 2006, and you have zero to show for it, other than this minor banter.

Like all things that don't last forever, we're about to move past you and hopefully we can make our moment in the sun count, unlike yours.

But yes, you beat the youngest and most inexperienced team for the year twice. Congrats.

Enjoy the memories.