List Mgmt. Who's in the gun in 2020?

[Boyd oh Boyd]

With 319 Disposals and 15 Shots on goal, we needed more than just Daniel.

Disposal Ladder (2019) Season:

301-320: 1 x Time for 1 x Loss.
321-340: None.
341-360: 3 x Times for 1 x Loss, 2 x Wins.
361-380: 7 x Times for 4 x Loss, 3 x Wins.
381-400: 4 x Times for 3 x Loss, 1 x Wins.
401-420: 3 x Times for 3 x Wins.
421-440: 3 x Times for 1 x Loss, 2 x Wins.
441-460: 2 x Times for 1 x Loss, 1 x Wins.

As usual I will leave off who the opponent was which is pretty useful information needless to say we are a better
team when we top 400 Disposals. No link we stink.

We lost it because Bont and Hunter were tagged and Dunkley had a s**t day. What should have happened, and what separates us from better sides, is we should have had another avenue towards winning. Or as you might like to look at it, another avenue towards maintaining possession. Our defence held up well all things considered (76 i50s for 33 scoring shots) but we had no drive forward ourselves (34 i50s).

I think Daniel would've made a difference in maintaining possession and getting the ball closer to goal. I forget the name of the stat but it's when a players disposal leads to a chain of possessions that eventuates in a goal. You'd probably know the name of it. At some point in the year the leaders of that stat were Daniel and rucks. He's absolutely elite in creating scoring plays.

As for Daniel's best games mostly being losses, I'm willing to bet the majority of those were in games where our forwards couldn't kick straight. Collingwood x2, West Coast, Freo (R6), North, Carlton (R5) would all be up there. Out of all of those I'd probably only blame the North game on any of our defenders.

 

[maddog37]

Caleb Daniel (Top Five Statistical Games):

9 Times for 2 x Wins and 7 x Losses.

Why do we lose when he plays well ?

because he plays in defence and has more opportunity for possession when we are getting beaten in the midfield. Chicken and egg.

 

[Dogforever]

I think the review by Dogwatch was very good. However in the follow ups i was disappointed to see some of the responses. If the club were to trade Wallis and/or McLean it would be reminiscent of the bad old days at Whitten Oval where Thorpe, Quinlan, Dempsey and Templeton and many others were dispensed with for poor reasons and even worse outcomes.Our club has a poor history in its use of trades out and i would hate to see us return to a formula where a premiership player and a great club man are thrown overboard for an unknown outcome. I think the club now respects these traits and sense will prevail.

 

[Yojimbo]

We lost it because Bont and Hunter were tagged and Dunkley had a s**t day. What should have happened, and what separates us from better sides, is we should have had another avenue towards winning. Or as you might like to look at it, another avenue towards maintaining possession. Our defence held up well all things considered (76 i50s for 33 scoring shots) but we had no drive forward ourselves (34 i50s).

I think Daniel would've made a difference in maintaining possession and getting the ball closer to goal. I forget the name of the stat but it's when a players disposal leads to a chain of possessions that eventuates in a goal. You'd probably know the name of it. At some point in the year the leaders of that stat were Daniel and rucks. He's absolutely elite in creating scoring plays.

As for Daniel's best games mostly being losses, I'm willing to bet the majority of those were in games where our forwards couldn't kick straight. Collingwood x2, West Coast, Freo (R6), North, Carlton (R5) would all be up there. Out of all of those I'd probably only blame the North game on any of our defenders.

Losses:
Round 3: Versus Gold Coast 9-14
Round 5: Versus Carlton 7-15
Round 6: Versus Fremantle 9-15
Round 10: Versus North Melbourne 13-12
Round 11: Versus West Coast 10-12
Round 14: Versus Collingwood 10-13
Round 20: Versus Brisbane 11-14

Wins:
Round 7: Versus Richmond 15-9
Round 13: Versus Carlton 15-13

Goal kicking you say, seems to be supported by the stats. As a Dogs supporter you do get sick of dominating games in the
part of the ground that does not have our goals. Thanks for not getting personal, I did the impact stats for every player
rated in the top five not just Caleb Daniel.

 

[gordo2016]

Caleb Daniel (Top Five Statistical Games):

9 Times for 2 x Wins and 7 x Losses.

Why do we lose when he plays well ?

They have also lost quite a few times over the last 3 seasons when players such as Bontempelli and Macrae have had many possessions. All they can do is play well and do their jobs. If their teammates aren't up the same standard, it is not their fault.

 

[Boyd oh Boyd]

Losses:
Round 3: Versus Gold Coast 9-14
Round 5: Versus Carlton 7-15
Round 6: Versus Fremantle 9-15
Round 10: Versus North Melbourne 13-12
Round 11: Versus West Coast 10-12
Round 14: Versus Collingwood 10-13
Round 20: Versus Brisbane 11-14

Wins:
Round 7: Versus Richmond 15-9
Round 13: Versus Carlton 15-13

Goal kicking you say, seems to be supported by the stats. As a Dogs supporter you do get sick of dominating games in the
part of the ground that does not have our goals. Thanks for not getting personal, I did the impact stats for every player
rated in the top five not just Caleb Daniel.

It'll be interesting if the trend of Daniel's best games being losses continues Hard to get a good read with such a small sample and 21 other variables in the side.

 

[Yojimbo]

It'll be interesting if the trend of Daniel's best games being losses continues Hard to get a good read with such a small sample and 21 other variables in the side.

Very true, I think the interesting factor is how the introduction of Bruce and Keath affects the blend of the 22
players. The blend of players behind the ball and the resulting speed and volume of ball is hard to quantify,
but it is there. Hunter has similar issues in that he plays well under certain conditions, but so do all players.
Most teams in the modern game play from the back and employ a press or grid of sorts, the transition is
based on the teams personnel. It can create conversion issues when the link is taken away or the wrong
kick types put it inside 50.

 

[ivan rassmussen]

I think the review by Dogwatch was very good. However in the follow ups i was disappointed to see some of the responses. If the club were to trade Wallis and/or McLean it would be reminiscent of the bad old days at Whitten Oval where Thorpe, Quinlan, Dempsey and Templeton and many others were dispensed with for poor reasons and even worse outcomes.Our club has a poor history in its use of trades out and i would hate to see us return to a formula where a premiership player and a great club man are thrown overboard for an unknown outcome. I think the club now respects these traits and sense will prevail.

Dempsey and Templeton were not dispensed with, they both chose to leave. Demps was chasing a flag after 12 seasons where he played in 2 losing finals, and Templeton was lured by the aura of Barassi. The Templeton departure probably worked in our favour given the bone spurs issue. Thorpe was setup by a committeeman with his own political agenda, he didn’t want to leave, but believed a lie that was fed to him and ended up painted into a corner. Quinlan also wasn’t ‘dispensed’ with, he was frustrated at the incompetent administration and asked to leave, so the club put a price on his head.

 

[Pugz89]

Surprised Lloyd wasn't on the list. Given his age and the possibility of blokes like Cavarra, Dale, Greene and Weightman all capable of playing similar roles, if you're gonna put Cavarra, Greene, Trengove etc on the list, I reckon Sammy Lloydddddd should also be mentioned.

 

[Fossie 32]

With 319 Disposals and 15 Shots on goal, we needed more than just Daniel.

Disposal Ladder (2019) Season:

301-320: 1 x Time for 1 x Loss.
321-340: None.
341-360: 3 x Times for 1 x Loss, 2 x Wins.
361-380: 7 x Times for 4 x Loss, 3 x Wins.
381-400: 4 x Times for 3 x Loss, 1 x Wins.
401-420: 3 x Times for 3 x Wins.
421-440: 3 x Times for 1 x Loss, 2 x Wins.
441-460: 2 x Times for 1 x Loss, 1 x Wins.

As usual I will leave off who the opponent was which is pretty useful information needless to say we are a better
team when we top 400 Disposals. No link we stink.

So if we score
341- 360 win rate is 2/3 = 67%
361 - 400 .......4/11 = 36%
401-420 ........ 3/3 = 100%
421-460 .........3/5 = 60% which would only give us 13 wins for the year

So if we can manage to get between 401 and 420 each week that would be ideal, but if it looks like we will struggle to crack 401 maybe ease off and aim for 341-360 to avoid the 361 - 341 bracket

 

[Fossie 32]

Dempsey and Templeton were not dispensed with, they both chose to leave. Demps was chasing a flag after 12 seasons where he played in 2 losing finals, and Templeton was lured by the aura of Barassi. The Templeton departure probably worked in our favour given the bone spurs issue. Thorpe was setup by a committeeman with his own political agenda, he didn’t want to leave, but believed a lie that was fed to him and ended up painted into a corner. Quinlan also wasn’t ‘dispensed’ with, he was frustrated at the incompetent administration and asked to leave, so the club put a price on his head.

Interesting info on these guys. What happened with Thorpe?

 

[Dogforever]

Happy to be corrected Ivan, but the outcomes still did us no good.
[/QUOTE]

 

[Yojimbo]

So if we score
341- 360 win rate is 2/3 = 67%
361 - 400 .......4/11 = 36%
401-420 ........ 3/3 = 100%
421-460 .........3/5 = 60% which would only give us 13 wins for the year

So if we can manage to get between 401 and 420 each week that would be ideal, but if it looks like we will struggle to crack 401 maybe ease off and aim for 341-360 to avoid the 361 - 341 bracket

As usual Fossie 32 I left out crucial information, in this case the opposition disposal information as it takes two
to tango and more importantly you only play as well as your opponent lets you or allows you. We are at our
most expansive against teams that focus on what they do because they rarely employ a tag or target our
players, but after the last game of the season against the Giants who exposed us I think we can expect more
in 2020. One of the other posters said we need to do more with less, Richmond won their first two finals with
315 and 311 dsposals, but their disposal per goal ratio was 17.50 and 25.92 . Their opponents had 354 and
366 disposals, but their disposal per goal ratio was 44.25 and 40.67 . Richmond crested 400 disposals six
times for the season for six wins and always handballed more against the slower sides.

 

[ivan rassmussen]

Happy to be corrected Ivan, but the outcomes still did us no good.

[/QUOTE]

Other than Templeton, I agree - the other 3 still had plenty of good footy in them, and a half competent admin would have helped retain them. The club in the 70s was riven by factions, cricket club v footy club, it was a mess.

 

[ivan rassmussen]

Interesting info on these guys. What happened with Thorpe?

The story goes that after a fair first year of coaching in 72 where we finished 11-11 for W/L, Bob Rose was under the pump at the end of 73 as we only won 7.5 games with a reasonably talented list. Thorpe was a first year captain in 73, and despite average kicking skills and that he has admitted in recent years he mainly played for himself, he busted his arse in 73 trying to be everywhere to get his team up. By the end of the year, a few players were restless regarding the coach. One bright spark official (allegedly) whispered in Thorpie’s ear that the coach was in trouble, and he had a shot at being the new captain-coach. Thorpe (allegedly) ran with it, but broached his potential promotion with the wrong people. In short, they weren’t going to sack Bob Rose, Thorpe’s position was untenable, so he asked/was asked to be traded (depending on who you to talk to), and off to Richmond he went. Along with Dempsey, Templeton, Edmond and Griffen, all were the current captain when they exited the club. Not a great record in my lifetime!

 

[dogwatch]

Surprised Lloyd wasn't on the list. Given his age and the possibility of blokes like Cavarra, Dale, Greene and Weightman all capable of playing similar roles, if you're gonna put Cavarra, Greene, Trengove etc on the list, I reckon Sammy Lloydddddd should also be mentioned.

It’s a legit question as he’ll be 30 when the season starts and his contract expires in 2020.

I left him off the endangered players list because he has just had the best season of his career and he was the club’s leading goal kicker. Also we tend to give plenty of opportunity to players recently traded to the Dogs. Understandably.

So I don’t think his senior spot is in jeopardy in early 2020 as he has a lot of credits in the bank. Maybe if his form tails off badly that could change.

I think we’ll give him a one year contract after 2020. By 2022 he may well have retired, making way for the new blood.

It’ll be a bit like Dickson. As long as his form is better than the younger blokes he’ll stay on the list but it’ll be a year by year assessment. When you’re not getting a regular senior game in your thirties you’re on thin ice.

 

[Fossie 32]

The story goes that after a fair first year of coaching in 72 where we finished 11-11 for W/L, Bob Rose was under the pump at the end of 73 as we only won 7.5 games with a reasonably talented list. Thorpe was a first year captain in 73, and despite average kicking skills and that he has admitted in recent years he mainly played for himself, he busted his arse in 73 trying to be everywhere to get his team up. By the end of the year, a few players were restless regarding the coach. One bright spark official (allegedly) whispered in Thorpie’s ear that the coach was in trouble, and he had a shot at being the new captain-coach. Thorpe (allegedly) ran with it, but broached his potential promotion with the wrong people. In short, they weren’t going to sack Bob Rose, Thorpe’s position was untenable, so he asked/was asked to be traded (depending on who you to talk to), and off to Richmond he went. Along with Dempsey, Templeton, Edmond and Griffen, all were the current captain when they exited the club. Not a great record in my lifetime!

Well that's a new way to stuff things up! I remember him as a ball magnet and was hard to see him go, along with all the others.
Gary Dempsey was my fave player when I first started following football and I had his number on my first jumper, even got to play in it for the mighty Phillip Island Reserves. So him leaving particularly sucked.
Thanks Ivan.

 

[Yojimbo]

For Fossie 32, The Bulldogs Opponents Disposal Ladder:

301-320: 2 x Times for 2 x Wins.
321-340: 6 x Times for 4 x Wins, 2 x Losses.
341-360: 4 x Times for 3 x Wins, 1 x Loss.
361-380: 2 x Times for 2 x Wins.
381-400: 7 x Times for 7 x Losses.
401-420: 2 x Times for 1 x Win, 1 x Loss.

So when our opponent has 381+ Possessions which happened 9 x Times, we won once and lost eight times
hence why the game versus Adelaide at Ballarat was a warning sign. Apologies for posting that I will vanish
into the abyss that is Christmas. Merry Christmas all.

 

[dogwatch]

For Fossie 32, The Bulldogs Opponents Disposal Ladder:

301-320: 2 x Times for 2 x Wins.
321-340: 6 x Times for 4 x Wins, 2 x Losses.
341-360: 4 x Times for 3 x Wins, 1 x Loss.
361-380: 2 x Times for 2 x Wins.
381-400: 7 x Times for 7 x Losses.
401-420: 2 x Times for 1 x Win, 1 x Loss.

So when our opponent has 381+ Possessions which happened 9 x Times, we won once and lost eight times
hence why the game versus Adelaide at Ballarat was a warning sign. Apologies for posting that I will vanish
into the abyss that is Christmas. Merry Christmas all.

It would have been more instructive to see both sets of numbers side by side in the first instance.

Anyway thanks for all the stats teasers in 2019.

Merry Abyss and a Happy New Footy Season.

 

[Fossie 32]

For Fossie 32, The Bulldogs Opponents Disposal Ladder:

301-320: 2 x Times for 2 x Wins.
321-340: 6 x Times for 4 x Wins, 2 x Losses.
341-360: 4 x Times for 3 x Wins, 1 x Loss.
361-380: 2 x Times for 2 x Wins.
381-400: 7 x Times for 7 x Losses.
401-420: 2 x Times for 1 x Win, 1 x Loss.

So when our opponent has 381+ Possessions which happened 9 x Times, we won once and lost eight times
hence why the game versus Adelaide at Ballarat was a warning sign. Apologies for posting that I will vanish
into the abyss that is Christmas. Merry Christmas all.

No need for apology mate Best Bulldog Wishes to you

 

[ivan rassmussen]

Well that's a new way to stuff things up! I remember him as a ball magnet and was hard to see him go, along with all the others.
Gary Dempsey was my fave player when I first started following football and I had his number on my first jumper, even got to play in it for the mighty Phillip Island Reserves. So him leaving particularly sucked.
Thanks Ivan.

No worries Fossie. Big Demps, Thorpie, Dennis Collins, Stevie Power and Gags Gallagher were my early favourites when I started going to games. I was a Wee Georgie fan when we were (rarely) on the telly, but he had just left (and Gags arrived) when I got to go to games.

 

[Jeff 1975]

Other than Templeton, I agree - the other 3 still had plenty of good footy in them, and a half competent admin would have helped retain them. The club in the 70s was riven by factions, cricket club v footy club, it was a mess.
[/QUOTE]


Great post Ivan

Your posts are the way I remember the 70’s

I would throw in the question mark around the social club too; a lot of money went missing – twice from memory

 

[Dry Rot]

IMO Bont is in the gun. Spending too much time hanging around with Bob Murphy and not training.

 

[SPower]

No worries Fossie. Big Demps, Thorpie, Dennis Collins, Stevie Power and Gags Gallagher were my early favourites when I started going to games. I was a Wee Georgie fan when we were (rarely) on the telly, but he had just left (and Gags arrived) when I got to go to games.

My Faves also
Have a great day to all
regards
Stephen

 

[ivan rassmussen]

Other than Templeton, I agree - the other 3 still had plenty of good footy in them, and a half competent admin would have helped retain them. The club in the 70s was riven by factions, cricket club v footy club, it was a mess.

Great post Ivan

Your posts are the way I remember the 70’s

I would throw in the question mark around the social club too; a lot of money went missing – twice from memory
[/QUOTE]

You’re right Jeff, social club too.

Merry Christmas to all btw!