Opinion 2015 Starting 22 for Round 1

[theflea]

The return of Astbury should help with that, when Astbury went out Grimes had to revert to a 3rd tall role, only occasionally getting to play a rebounding role.



As I said last night, having that 7 as the back line, allows us to use the midfielders where they can do the most damage. As for getting the play making and rebounding from defence, that is where 2 way running from our midfielders becomes important. Having them push deep into the back line and giving them a chop out will provide that rebound and give us that play making we want, without sacrificing anyone. From the side I posted in the OP if Grimes comes in it releases Vlastuin to the midfield and probably means one of Knights, Petterd or Grigg misses and we don't really lose anything in doing so.

We will have to disagree then. I think having play makers at the HBL is crucial these days and run and carry from that line sets the play up big time. The better players in that area, the better the teams play. It seems to me 'mids' or non KPD's, do this better than any other player type.

 

[cairo tiger]

Yep your right, I have conca in already

My best 22

Backs Morris Astbury Chaplin
HB. Houli. Rance. Lids
Centre. Ellis. Cotchin. Gordon
HF. Edwards Griffs. Knights
Fwd. Lloyd. Vickery. Riewoldt

Foll. Maric Miles Martin

Int. Conca Foley Vlas Hunt

Sub. Lennon

no place for foley in the team sadly no vickery not sadly

 

[Stylo]

For mine:

FB: Morris Astbury Chaplin
HB: Houli Rance Vlastuin
C: Ellis Cotchin Conca
HF: Deledio Griffiths Martin
FF: Vickery Riewoldt McDonough
Fol: Maric Edwards Miles
Int: Grigg, Grimes, Lennon, Hunt

Emg: Batchelor, Knights, Newman, Petterd

 

[blunt_tiger]

B: Grimes Rance Morris

HB: Houli Astbury Vlastuin

C: Ellis Cotchin Conca

HF: Martin Vickery Petterd

F: Shedwards Reiwoldt Lennon

R: Maric Deledio Miles

INT: Griffiths Foley Hunt

Sub: Newman

EMG: Chaplin Knights Arnot

Actually found this hard to do this year and could change my mind every few minutes

 

[sante]

Arnot isn't even a RFC player at this point in time?

 

[TheAnt]

The return of Astbury should help with that, when Astbury went out Grimes had to revert to a 3rd tall role, only occasionally getting to play a rebounding role.

I'd say he plays that role much better then when rebounding, he's a stopper first.

 

[_RT_]

Here's a tip, if you have run and creativity from your HB line and a back pocket it makes your mids have to work less and enables them to link up in the midfield and run forward this puts pressure on the opposition as they need to leave their men to plug the loose overlap and opens up the fwd half.

If your mids are doing all the running from your back half then they need to be super fit to keep it up all day and it means your fwds have to provide the link in the middle of the ground often leaving loose defenders inside 50 waiting to intercept the delivery.

If you want to win finals you need at least 3 defenders that are capable of defending 1 on 1 and creating attack and run from defence, that's what cuts teams up

It's funnny, when we tried to go down that path heading into 2014 by moving Martin down there and practically everyone abused Hardwick for making the move saying it was stupid to use a midfielder like Martin in that role and yet here we are at the end of the season and people want to see a midfielder being played across HB.

Last year I was a fan of having Martin being played across HB as it provided us drive out of the back line, but the problem soon became that there wasn't enough class up the ground to capitalise on him winning the ball down there and sending it forward. So we reverted to having Martin forward and the same type of back line set up as I'm suggesting now, with the midfielders pushing deep into D50 to help out. That is how all the best sides defend as a team, they push back in numbers and make it hard for the opposition to find open space.

The way you seem to want us to play is to have the back line do all the work to stop the opposition and win the ball and then counter attack, all that is going to do is leave us open to being heavily scored against as we'll be outnumbered. By having our midfielders and HFF/FP push up the ground the players won't be working as hard and the second benefit is that we create space for the likes of Riewoldt Vickery and Griffiths to work in.

Take a look at Hawthorn Sydney Fremantle Geelong & Port and tell me which of their midfielders line up across HBF? None of them really use midfielders in that role. They all rely on defenders to play those roles with support from midfield types pushing back in support. Now I know you're probably going to throw up the likes of Hodge & Mitchell at Hawthorn and McVeigh at Sydney but those 3 are allowed to play back there at times because those sides have such depth in their midfields that they can get away with using these guys in that role when needed. The rest use their midfielders in midfield/forward roles and defenders through the back line. That is what makes those sides much more dangerous than us as all their attacking weapons are where they can do the most damage, not where they can't hurt the opposition sitting at HB.

I'd say he plays that role much better then when rebounding, he's a stopper first.

I agree he is a stopper first, but he has also shown that he can play the rebounding role at times. The key is as I said to find the balance between trying to shut an opponent down and providing that run and carry out of the back line. Rance had to do the same thing as early on he was all about attack, but found the balance where he defends first and then set up rebound once the ball has been won.

 

[The Rusty Trombone]

It's funnny, when we tried to go down that path heading into 2014 by moving Martin down there and practically everyone abused Hardwick for making the move saying it was stupid to use a midfielder like Martin in that role and yet here we are at the end of the season and people want to see a midfielder being played across HB.

Last year I was a fan of having Martin being played across HB as it provided us drive out of the back line, but the problem soon became that there wasn't enough class up the ground to capitalise on him winning the ball down there and sending it forward. So we reverted to having Martin forward and the same type of back line set up as I'm suggesting now, with the midfielders pushing deep into D50 to help out. That is how all the best sides defend as a team, they push back in numbers and make it hard for the opposition to find open space.

The way you seem to want us to play is to have the back line do all the work to stop the opposition and win the ball and then counter attack, all that is going to do is leave us open to being heavily scored against as we'll be outnumbered. By having our midfielders and HFF/FP push up the ground the players won't be working as hard and the second benefit is that we create space for the likes of Riewoldt Vickery and Griffiths to work in.

Take a look at Hawthorn Sydney Fremantle Geelong & Port and tell me which of their midfielders line up across HBF? None of them really use midfielders in that role. They all rely on defenders to play those roles with support from midfield types pushing back in support. Now I know you're probably going to throw up the likes of Hodge & Mitchell at Hawthorn and McVeigh at Sydney but those 3 are allowed to play back there at times because those sides have such depth in their midfields that they can get away with using these guys in that role when needed. The rest use their midfielders in midfield/forward roles and defenders through the back line. That is what makes those sides much more dangerous than us as all their attacking weapons are where they can do the most damage, not where they can't hurt the opposition sitting at HB.


I agree he is a stopper first, but he has also shown that he can play the rebounding role at times. The key is as I said to find the balance between trying to shut an opponent down and providing that run and carry out of the back line. Rance had to do the same thing as early on he was all about attack, but found the balance where he defends first and then set up rebound once the ball has been won.

When has Astbury ever shown he is a rebounding defender? His first four years when he was actually on the park he held the ball up terribly every time he got it and this year he was a pure stopper. His best ever game was last ear where he shut down Gunston but he hardly had a kick all day in doing so.

He'll play that stopping role again and that will let Chapman off the hook to set up play a bit. Personally Id like only Rance and Chappy or Rance and Astbury and four pure running defenders .

 

[_RT_]

When has Astbury ever shown he is a rebounding defender? His first four years when he was actually on the park he held the ball up terribly every time he got it and this year he was a pure stopper. His best ever game was last ear where he shut down Gunston but he hardly had a kick all day in doing so.

He'll play that stopping role again and that will let Chapman off the hook to set up play a bit. Personally Id like only Rance and Chappy or Rance and Astbury and four pure running defenders .

Where did I say anything about Astbury being a rebound defender?

 

[guruisatiger]

my best 22
backs---- hunt--- astbury--- grimes

hbacks--- batch--- rance--- elllis

centers--- houli--- miles---- gordon

hfwds--- lids--- griff---- tich

fwds----dusty---jack--- knights

rucks--- ivan-- vlausitin-- cotch

inter-- tv--- conca--lennon--pick 12

 

[The Rusty Trombone]

It's funnny, when we tried to go down that path heading into 2014 by moving Martin down there and practically everyone abused Hardwick for making the move saying it was stupid to use a midfielder like Martin in that role and yet here we are at the end of the season and people want to see a midfielder being played across HB.

Last year I was a fan of having Martin being played across HB as it provided us drive out of the back line, but the problem soon became that there wasn't enough class up the ground to capitalise on him winning the ball down there and sending it forward. So we reverted to having Martin forward and the same type of back line set up as I'm suggesting now, with the midfielders pushing deep into D50 to help out. That is how all the best sides defend as a team, they push back in numbers and make it hard for the opposition to find open space.

The way you seem to want us to play is to have the back line do all the work to stop the opposition and win the ball and then counter attack, all that is going to do is leave us open to being heavily scored against as we'll be outnumbered. By having our midfielders and HFF/FP push up the ground the players won't be working as hard and the second benefit is that we create space for the likes of Riewoldt Vickery and Griffiths to work in.

Take a look at Hawthorn Sydney Fremantle Geelong & Port and tell me which of their midfielders line up across HBF? None of them really use midfielders in that role. They all rely on defenders to play those roles with support from midfield types pushing back in support. Now I know you're probably going to throw up the likes of Hodge & Mitchell at Hawthorn and McVeigh at Sydney but those 3 are allowed to play back there at times because those sides have such depth in their midfields that they can get away with using these guys in that role when needed. The rest use their midfielders in midfield/forward roles and defenders through the back line. That is what makes those sides much more dangerous than us as all their attacking weapons are where they can do the most damage, not where they can't hurt the opposition sitting at HB.


I agree he is a stopper first, but he has also shown that he can play the rebounding role at times. The key is as I said to find the balance between trying to shut an opponent down and providing that run and carry out of the back line. Rance had to do the same thing as early on he was all about attack, but found the balance where he defends first and then set up rebound once the ball has been won.

About here,

 

[_RT_]

About here,

Once again where do I say Astbury is a rebounder? Making stuff up again

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

Backs : Morris Astbury grimes
Half backs : Houli Rance Chaplin
Centre : ellis Cotchin gordan
Half forward : Edwards Griffiths Deledio
Forward : Martin Vickery Reiwoldt

Maric Miles Vlaustin

Hunt , Batchellor , Foley , sub. : Newman

Emerg : Pettard , Conca , Lloyd

For mine Lennon is a long way off it and I don't expect him to leap ahead of others , other than due to injury .
Biggest change I would see is if Vickery outs in a sub par pre season again and Elton or McBean make a large improvement . The need for rebounding defenders is somewhat masked if you have marking options , or at least competing , options in the middle third of the ground . Something Ivan is great at and was evident on his return during 2014 .

 

[TigerImposter]

Backs : Morris Astbury grimes
Half backs : Houli Rance Chaplin
Centre : ellis Cotchin gordan
Half forward : Edwards Griffiths Deledio
Forward : Martin Vickery Reiwoldt

Maric Miles Vlaustin

Hunt , Batchellor , Foley , sub. : Newman

Emerg : Pettard , Conca , Lloyd

For mine Lennon is a long way off it and I don't expect him to leap ahead of others , other than due to injury .
Biggest change I would see is if Vickery outs in a sub par pre season again and Elton or McBean make a large improvement . The need for rebounding defenders is somewhat masked if you have marking options , or at least competing , options in the middle third of the ground . Something Ivan is great at and was evident on his return during 2014 .

How does Newman get in our best 22 before Conca?
If Newmans in our best 22 then heavens forbid
We need our 3-4 yr players to push these guys out if we are to be genuine contenders

 

[The Rusty Trombone]

Once again where do I say Astbury is a rebounder? Making stuff up again

Who we're you talking about in that post ?

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

How does Newman get in our best 22 before Conca?
If Neemans in our best 22 then heavens forbid
We need our 3-4 yr players to push these guys out if we are to be genuine contenders

Form, reliability , ability to stick to task, less brain fades , ability to read the game when it is on the line / leadership
.
Yes we need them to push them out , not remove the older to players to make way for the younger players . They can develop or linger at VFL level till their form warrants.
This year will be make our break for Vickery and Conca IMO , they have been given games and haven't consolidated a spot .

 

[tropicaltiger]

Who we're you talking about in that post ?

i read it as grimes

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

i read it as grimes

I thought it was Morris .

 

[TigerImposter]

Form, reliability , ability to stick to task, less brain fades , ability to read the game when it is on the line / leadership
.
Yes we need them to push them out , not remove the older to players to make way for the younger players . They can develop or linger at VFL level till their form warrants.
This year will be make our break for Vickery and Conca IMO , they have been given games and haven't consolidated a spot .

Disagree RIB Newman lost most of those traits years ago
What leadership did he give us in the last two finals? He was in our bottom four consistently last season
They tell me he was doing some good time on the Tan
I'm hoping its not his sun tan
Really we've got to utilise his experience in the vfl where he may genuinely impart some of his experience there
The game has moved beyond him in the firsts as he has lost a lot of pace

 

[The Rusty Trombone]

I thought it was Morris .

I thought it was Astbury , I wonder who it was ?

 

[_RT_]

Who we're you talking about in that post ?

I was talking about Grimes becoming a rebounding defender. At present he seems to focus too much on being a complete shut down defender and while that is good to have I'm not sure you can carry 2 talls like that in the backline. With Astbury coming back in he can play that role on the KPF and I still believe Morris is our best small shut down defender. Grimes with his height and agility can play on the medium sized lead up types as he won't get burnt on the lead and can compete when the ball hits the ground and he can also zone off and come over the top with a fist when needed.

At the moment though I think he'll miss out as I can see us going with the back 7 I named in the OP which is:
B: Morris Astbury Chaplin
HB: Houli Rance Vlastuin
INT: Batchelor

Ideally I'd like to see Grimes or Batchelor replace Vlastuin on the HBF and have Vlastuin move into the midfield rotations where he'll become a much more valuable player.

 

[The Rusty Trombone]

I was talking about Grimes becoming a rebounding defender. At present he seems to focus too much on being a complete shut down defender and while that is good to have I'm not sure you can carry 2 talls like that in the backline. With Astbury coming back in he can play that role on the KPF and I still believe Morris is our best small shut down defender. Grimes with his height and agility can play on the medium sized lead up types as he won't get burnt on the lead and can compete when the ball hits the ground and he can also zone off and come over the top with a fist when needed.

At the moment though I think he'll miss out as I can see us going with the back 7 I named in the OP which is:
B: Morris Astbury Chaplin
HB: Houli Rance Vlastuin
INT: Batchelor

Ideally I'd like to see Grimes or Batchelor replace Vlastuin on the HBF and have Vlastuin move into the midfield rotations where he'll become a much more valuable player.

We all like to see Vlaus played in the middle but it too Hardwick 8 rounds of losing to give him a quarter of football in there . I agree with what your saying but your dreaming if you think Newman isn't going to be in that backline .

 

[Tango67]

It's funnny, when we tried to go down that path heading into 2014 by moving Martin down there and practically everyone abused Hardwick for making the move saying it was stupid to use a midfielder like Martin in that role and yet here we are at the end of the season and people want to see a midfielder being played across HB.

Last year I was a fan of having Martin being played across HB as it provided us drive out of the back line, but the problem soon became that there wasn't enough class up the ground to capitalise on him winning the ball down there and sending it forward. So we reverted to having Martin forward and the same type of back line set up as I'm suggesting now, with the midfielders pushing deep into D50 to help out. That is how all the best sides defend as a team, they push back in numbers and make it hard for the opposition to find open space.

The way you seem to want us to play is to have the back line do all the work to stop the opposition and win the ball and then counter attack, all that is going to do is leave us open to being heavily scored against as we'll be outnumbered. By having our midfielders and HFF/FP push up the ground the players won't be working as hard and the second benefit is that we create space for the likes of Riewoldt Vickery and Griffiths to work in.

Take a look at Hawthorn Sydney Fremantle Geelong & Port and tell me which of their midfielders line up across HBF? None of them really use midfielders in that role. They all rely on defenders to play those roles with support from midfield types pushing back in support. Now I know you're probably going to throw up the likes of Hodge & Mitchell at Hawthorn and McVeigh at Sydney but those 3 are allowed to play back there at times because those sides have such depth in their midfields that they can get away with using these guys in that role when needed. The rest use their midfielders in midfield/forward roles and defenders through the back line. That is what makes those sides much more dangerous than us as all their attacking weapons are where they can do the most damage, not where they can't hurt the opposition sitting at HB.


I agree he is a stopper first, but he has also shown that he can play the rebounding role at times. The key is as I said to find the balance between trying to shut an opponent down and providing that run and carry out of the back line. Rance had to do the same thing as early on he was all about attack, but found the balance where he defends first and then set up rebound once the ball has been won.

Who mentioned Martin in the backlist?
And I didn't day mids can't drop back, what I'm saying is if you have 3 defenders that can hold their own defensively and still offer rebound run and skill you are on to a good thing...
You mentioned the hawks well they have Gibson, birchall, hodge, Mitchell and others all capable of creativity and run, as for swans they play with 16 midfielders a ruck and 5 KPP so don't use them to support your argument
Port are all runners bar a few key players and the cats have had 10 years of defenders who can defend and create as they were the masters at it.
What I am saying is if you rely on all your run from your mids they will tire, if you have well rounded footballers ie back men that can defend 1 on 1 and run and carry as we'll combined with HFF that can take an over head mark and also run and create then you have a far more potent side and one that is far more likely to stand up in finals than a side that has just 1 rebounder in houli... Stop him and you are toast
Also when a good coach mans up your loose man and the defenders actually have to deal 1 on 1 you get found out, guys like Morris, Chaplin, Houli and batch were all found out.
Now if you replace Morris with Vlas you have a taller more composed defender who adds creativity
Add conca and hunt to the back flanks and both can defend and run and carry?.
That leave Cochin, miles, edwards, Ellis and someone else? to do the middle work with a lids and Martin rotating mid and fwd flank, - now we are talking?

 

[The Rusty Trombone]

Who mentioned Martin in the backlist?
And I didn't day mids can't drop back, what I'm saying is if you have 3 defenders that can hold their own defensively and still offer rebound run and skill you are on to a good thing...
You mentioned the hawks well they have Gibson, birchall, hodge, Mitchell and others all capable of creativity and run, as for swans they play with 16 midfielders a ruck and 5 KPP so don't use them to support your argument
Port are all runners bar a few key players and the cats have had 10 years of defenders who can defend and create as they were the masters at it.
What I am saying is if you rely on all your run from your mids they will tire, if you have well rounded footballers ie back men that can defend 1 on 1 and run and carry as we'll combined with HFF that can take an over head mark and also run and create then you have a far more potent side and one that is far more likely to stand up in finals than a side that has just 1 rebounder in houli... Stop him and you are toast
Also when a good coach mans up your loose man and the defenders actually have to deal 1 on 1 you get found out, guys like Morris, Chaplin, Houli and batch were all found out.
Now if you replace Morris with Vlas you have a taller more composed defender who adds creativity
Add conca and hunt to the back flanks and both can defend and run and carry?.
That leave Cochin, miles, edwards, Ellis and someone else? to do the middle work with a lids and Martin rotating mid and fwd flank, - now we are talking?

I'd like to see Conca own a back flank this year with Houli on the other one . I'd set it up like this
BP: Morris FB: Rance BP : Vlaus
HBF: Conca CHB: Chappy HBF : Houli
I'd have Astbury on the bench as the swingman and he could change with Chappy a lot .

 

[The Rusty Trombone]

I'd be looking at this for round 1.

BP: Morris FB: Rance BP: Vlaus
HBF: Conca CHB: Chappy HBF : Houli
W: Lennon C: Ellis W: Edwards
HFF : Deledio CHF: Griff HFF: Martin
FP: Gordon FF: Reiwoldt FP: Lloyd
Ruck : Maric Ruck Rover : Miles Rover : Cotchin
Bench : Astbury, Madonna , Foley
Sub : McIntosh

I wouldn't risk playing the three tall forward line of Vickery , Jack and Griff I'd just make sure Astbury or Chappy are at CHF while Griff is in the ruck and Maric is on the bench having a rest , or just swap Griff and Maric for the last 3 minutes of every quarter.