Census will allow Australians to identify as 'other' for both sex and gender

[Scotland]

If she meets the medical and legal requirements to alter her birth certificate defiantly yes.

Madness.

To reply to your previous statement that births deaths and marriages should be updated it was over ten years ago which enabled me to be granted my correct birth certificate.

I don't know if anything has changed since then, but this thread is about the census and persons being able to identify as 'other' for sex/gender.

Can you hold a passport which says female and a birth certificate that says male? Is that possible? It should be.

I asked you previously what do you believe defines a man or a woman?

You asked me with a post edit.

Male: XY chromosomes, male reproductive organs
Female: XX chromosomes, female reproductive organs

Passports and birth certificates identify people by sex as male or female. Drivers licenses don't include that information. The blurred lines between sex and gender shouldn't really come into the debate if a third category is provided.

In your case, you were born a man, identified as a woman and had gender reassignment surgery. Would have you have used a third 'other' category prior to becoming a woman?

 

[kirsti]

Madness.



I don't know if anything has changed since then, but this thread is about the census and persons being able to identify as 'other' for sex/gender.

Can you hold a passport which says female and a birth certificate that says male? Is that possible? It should be.



You asked me with a post edit.

Male: XY chromosomes, male reproductive organs
Female: XX chromosomes, female reproductive organs

Passports and birth certificates identify people by sex as male or female. Drivers licenses don't include that information. The blurred lines between sex and gender shouldn't really come into the debate if a third category is provided.

In your case, you were born a man, identified as a woman and had gender reassignment surgery. Would have you have used a third 'other' category prior to becoming a woman?

Madness.
Why do you say it is madness for Caitlyn Jenner to have her birth certificate amended if she meets all.medical and legal requirements to do so.

In Australia a twelve month temporary passport can be issued prior to gender reassignment surgery to enable a trans person to travel abroad for medical purposes but the birth certificate cannot be changed until all of the previously posted legal and medical requirements have been completed.

You suggest that what determines a man and a woman is QUOTE "Male: XY chromosomes, male reproductive organs
Female: XX chromosomes, female reproductive organs" UNQUOTE.

Wrong wrong totally wrong, not all females have xx or males xy chromosomes, there are many variations to these two categories, such is the case with myself.

Given your outdated views that a male or a woman requires reproductive organs to be identified as either a male or female you are so incorrect on so many levels, what you suggest would mean any woman born without the ability to give birth is not a real woman or a woman that has undergone a hysterectomy is no longer a woman or a male that has lost his testes from an injury or illness is no longer a man, I feel sorrow for people that in 2016 still hold these uneducated views.

You say (QUOTE) "Passports and birth certificates identify people by sex as male or female. Drivers licenses don't include that information. The blurred lines between sex and gender shouldn't really come into the debate if a third category is provided" UNQUOTE

Sexuality and gender are two totally unrelated issues and they are not interconnected in any way


You say QUOTE "In your case, you were born a man, identified as a woman and had gender reassignment surgery. Would have you have used a third 'other' category prior to becoming a woman" UNQUOTE

As I have corrected you previously I was born as a female but I was trapped in a male body. I stated in a previous post that due to a high court ruling called the "NORRRIE CASE" a third gender option is available in Australia being a non gender specific birth certificate. This was never an option for me as I have never doubted that I am a female since I was three years of age.

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

Gotta agree with Scotland on this one. Changing the gender on the birth certificate is madness and is factually incorrect.

 

[CM86]

Really hope certain posters don't chase kirsti off bigfooty.

I think she has been giving us some great insights, opinions and answers.

 

[Scotland]

Madness.
Why do you say it is madness for Caitlyn Jenner to have her birth certificate amended if she meets all.medical and legal requirements to do so.

Because Bruce Jenner was born William Bruce Jenner, October 28, 1949 as a male. His or her birth certificate should read exactly that for the remainder of time. If birth certificates are fluid then they don't really serve a purpose as a record of anything.

As a male he competed in the Montreal Olympics and won gold in the decathlon. As a male he fathered 6 children.

At age 65 she decided to come out as a trans woman and as far as I know has not underdone any gender reassignment surgery.

Assuming she has the surgery and is declared (is that the right word?) a woman by two doctors etc. do the first 60 odd years of her life disappear via the butterfly effect? Women can do a lot of things but fathering children isn't generally considered one of them.

If I go full Ron Artest (NBA player if you haven't heard of him) and change my name to Metta World Peace tomorrow, should my birth certificate be updated?

In Australia a twelve month temporary passport can be issued prior to gender reassignment surgery to enable a trans person to travel abroad for medical purposes but the birth certificate cannot be changed until all of the previously posted legal and medical requirements have been completed.

Noted.

You suggest that what determines a man and a woman is QUOTE "Male: XY chromosomes, male reproductive organs
Female: XX chromosomes, female reproductive organs" UNQUOTE.

Wrong wrong totally wrong, not all females have xx or males xy chromosomes, there are many variations to these two categories, such is the case with myself.

Given your outdated views that a male or a woman requires reproductive organs to be identified as either a male or female you are so incorrect on so many levels, what you suggest would mean any woman born without the ability to give birth is not a real woman or a woman that has undergone a hysterectomy is no longer a woman or a male that has lost his testes from an injury or illness is no longer a man, I feel sorrow for people that in 2016 still hold these uneducated views.

What should define a man and a woman, or a male and a female, then? I'm not prepared to throw biology into the bin just yet.

You say (QUOTE) "Passports and birth certificates identify people by sex as male or female. Drivers licenses don't include that information. The blurred lines between sex and gender shouldn't really come into the debate if a third category is provided" UNQUOTE

Sexuality and gender are two totally unrelated issues and they are not interconnected in any way

If you're going to build strawmen then people won't take you seriously.

I did not bring sexuality into the discussion. I don't know of any identifying document which includes a person's sexuality, why would it?

Sex and gender being 'not interconnected in any way' would be a pretty ambitious claim.

You say QUOTE "In your case, you were born a man, identified as a woman and had gender reassignment surgery. Would have you have used a third 'other' category prior to becoming a woman" UNQUOTE

As I have corrected you previously I was born as a female but I was trapped in a male body. I stated in a previous post that due to a high court ruling called the "NORRRIE CASE" a third gender option is available in Australia being a non gender specific birth certificate. This was never an option for me as I have never doubted that I am a female since I was three years of age.

Were you born male, female or intersex?
From a conscious age did you identify as a boy, girl or other?

 

[Gough]

Just because you don't understand it, doesn't make it madness.

 

[Scotland]

Really hope certain posters don't chase kirsti off bigfooty.

I think she has been giving us some great insights, opinions and answers.

Likewise. Hopefully weren't aiming that at posters like me who want to engage in debate.

 

[Scotland]

Just because you don't understand it, doesn't make it madness.

What don't I understand?

I'm not denying anyone's right to change their gender (sex, really), but I don't think we should be changing historical records because of it.

 

[Lebbo73]

Just because you don't understand it, doesn't make it madness.

If people are hermaphrodites, I can understand an operation being performed to change their sex if they don't think they are the sex they were born as. If someone wants to change sex because of a strong belief that they should be the opposite sex, that is something I could never go along with!

 

[Lester Burnham]

i take offence to your suggestion that my birth certificate is not accurate.

A birth certificate is a historical record about the birth of a child including its physical sex. Clearly you were born male. You had a male body including functioning male sex organs that allowed you to father three children. If later in life you identified as female and changed your body to appear female it does not change the fact that you were born male.

 

[skilts]

A birth certificate is a historical record about the birth of a child including its physical sex. Clearly you were born male. You had a male body including functioning male sex organs that allowed you to father three children. If later in life you identified as female and changed your body to appear female it does not change the fact that you were born male.

People can change.

 

[Lester Burnham]

People can change.

Of course. But changing a birth certificate is an attempt to erase that change.

 

[DemonTim]

I can see both sides really.

They're not wrong in saying that it's factually incorrect to update a birth certificate. But not updating it causes issues, what happens after the person goes through the necessary medical changes and becomes the opposite sex, if their birth certificate identifies them as male, then so will their passport etc. which would currently not be correct

Think it needs to be reworked

 

[Scotland]

I can see both sides really.

They're not wrong in saying that it's factually incorrect to update a birth certificate. But not updating it causes issues, what happens after the person goes through the necessary medical changes and becomes the opposite sex, if their birth certificate identifies them as male, then so will their passport etc. which would currently not be correct

Think it needs to be reworked

That's what I'm saying. Births, Deaths and Marriages should have the functionality to say 'person x was born a man, became a woman' without changing birth certificates.

People change names far more often than they change gender. Do they get a new birth certificate each time?

 

[Run n Spread]

To my eyes. Weird. How can you identify as not sure/other? Still well outside my experience and expertise. I will simply tick male and everyone can tick whatever else they want as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Substance]

To me this whole "gender identity" makes no sense. Gender/Sex is a fact of biology, nothing more. When I read something like "I was born as a female trapped in the wrong body", I really think you are just projecting what you think a stereotypical male/female is, thus perpetuating the gender roles you seek to abolish. Telling someone you are male or female should tell them nothing about whether you wear makeup, grow facial hair, play sports or wear typically male/female clothing. But I understand that's not the world we live in. Feeling more comfortable being called "she" just means that the label "she" is directly connected with stereo-typically "girly" stuff. Which it shouldn't be.

Kirsti, I see no reason why you cannot identify as male(unless I've misunderstood you, which is not unlikely as I am new to this discussion.), whilst being exactly who you are. Just like I could identify as female (if I was) whilst being exactly who I am. My opinion is the "spectrum" is an illusion. There are only the facts of biology. The rest of what you think a male or female is or should be, is a social construct.

 

[DemonTim]

To me this whole "gender identity" makes no sense. Gender/Sex is a fact of biology, nothing more. When I read something like "I was born as a female trapped in the wrong body", I really think you are just projecting what you think a stereotypical male/female is, thus perpetuating the gender roles you seek to abolish. Telling someone you are male or female should tell them nothing about whether you wear makeup, grow facial hair, play sports or wear typically male/female clothing. But I understand that's not the world we live in. Feeling more comfortable being called "she" just means that the label "she" is directly connected with stereo-typically "girly" stuff. Which it shouldn't be.

Kirsti, I see no reason why you cannot identify as male(unless I've misunderstood you, which is not unlikely as I am new to this discussion.), whilst being exactly who you are. Just like I could identify as female (if I was) whilst being exactly who I am. My opinion is the "spectrum" is an illusion. There are only the facts of biology. The rest of what you think a male or female is or should be, is a social construct.

Sex is biology. Gender is not. Your premise makes the rest of it irrational.

 

[Substance]

Sex is biology. Gender is not. Your premise makes the rest of it irrational.

To be honest, I think you've missed my point. Is there anything specific you disagree with?

 

[Chief]

If people are hermaphrodites, I can understand an operation being performed to change their sex if they don't think they are the sex they were born as. If someone wants to change sex because of a strong belief that they should be the opposite sex, that is something I could never go along with!

When have you ever been asked to go along with it? Which work mates, family members or close friends of yours have or are considering gender reassignment?

 

[Scotland]

Sex is biology. Gender is not.

It's really not as simple as that.

 

[little graham]

I'll make my point another way so those a bit slow to meme knowledge who don't understand silly pictures can understand.

If I'm born white and I have an operation that changes the color of my skin,what do I identify myself with at census?

 

[DemonTim]

To be honest, I think you've missed my point. Is there anything specific you disagree with?

The entire thing?
You're basically discounting all expert opinion on the matter. Downplaying it all. It started off badly by saying the gender is a biological fact. Which it's not. And went downhill from there

 

[DemonTim]

It's really not as simple as that.

actually it is. That's the agreed upon definitions. Gender is not biological. Literally couldn't be simpler.
http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/sexandgender.html

 

[Substance]

The entire thing?
You're basically discounting all expert opinion on the matter. Downplaying it all. It started off badly by saying the gender is a biological fact. Which it's not. And went downhill from there

I said Sex/Gender is a fact of biology, which it definitely is. If I admit that gender is used more to describe social constructs, does that really invalidate the rest of what I said? My point was identifying as a particular gender is perpetuating stereotypical gender roles.

 

[DemonTim]

I said Sex/Gender is a fact of biology, which it definitely is. If I admit that gender is used more to describe social constructs, does that really invalidate the rest of what I said? My point was identifying as a particular gender is perpetuating stereotypical gender roles.

Sex and gender are seperate things. One is a fact of biology. One is not. Starting with an incorrect premise, does tend to invalidate most of it

It has nothing to do with stereotypes, nothing at all. I'd suggest doing more research into what is required to go through all this. You're speaking about things that are just blatantly untrue