Bumped Hawthorn - the beginning of the end? Will they make the fnals in 2017?

[Mr Lizard]

Yeah sorry champ, if that's your best then you should stop trying.

Hey there champ...it was no effort at all, really. I expended more energy laughing at finding you here on p72 of an 'end of Hawthorn' thread.

You are right about everything, of course. There's nothing suss about Bomber/Dank/Weapon involvement at your club, the medical records prove it.

 

[hk89]

It truly is amazing that the billion dollar AFL industry can't find any evidence of wrongdoing

I assume you mean the same AFL that let Essendon off with a slap on the wrist because it suited their damage control, before WADA stepped in and applied proper penalties?

Nothing to see here, move along, move along...

 

[PhatBoy]

I assume you mean the same AFL that let Essendon off with a slap on the wrist because it suited their damage control, before WADA stepped in and applied proper penalties?

Nothing to see here, move along, move along...

Effectively ruling them out of the competition for a year was not exactly a simple slap on the wrist, especially given that the players themselves were not really in the wrong by comparison to the doctors etc.

Also I'd have thought their willingness to prolong the entire process for what, 3 years? Was enough to suggest that they have no problems looking into your seemingly concrete and 100 per cent substantiated claims.

None of which even addresses the fact that their treatment of Essendon would almost certainly guarantee that they have to look at all clubs evenly as a means of appeasing one of the largest supporter bases in the competition. I somehow doubt that after what the Bombers fans have had to put up with, the league would just say "you know what? This other mob might have been cheating too but who cares."

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

You have got to be kidding me mate so your saying Frawley was as good as McGovern, Tarrent , D.Talia , Rance , Shaw and Doherty comparing Frawley do the best defenders in the comp is a massive insult to those players who are good unlike frawley...

What a load.

Frawley was in amongst a heap of AA squads being written up on this very board for the majority of the year.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Hey there champ...it was no effort at all, really. I expended more energy laughing at finding you here on p72 of an 'end of Hawthorn' thread.

You are right about everything, of course. There's nothing suss about Bomber/Dank/Weapon involvement at your club, the medical records prove it.

Blame your mate for scrabbling for ways to denigrate Geelong in this here Hawthorn thread?

 

[hk89]

Effectively ruling them out of the competition for a year was not exactly a simple slap on the wrist, especially given that the players themselves were not really in the wrong by comparison to the doctors etc.

But there is a very good reason why that didn't matter. Every drug cheat ever caught says "someone else gave me the stuff'. 100% responsibility for what goes in is the only way it can work. Did feel for the players though, but compared to others - even others in the AFL - they effectively got off scott free before
WADA stepped in, and the AFL oversaw that.

Also I'd have thought their willingness to prolong the entire process for what, 3 years? Was enough to suggest that they have no problems looking into your seemingly concrete and 100 per cent substantiated claims.

I think you'll find the AFL wanted it over well before then, it wasn't the AFL extending the process but rather other parties like ASADA/Essendon/Hird.

None of which even addresses the fact that their treatment of Essendon would almost certainly guarantee that they have to look at all clubs evenly as a means of appeasing one of the largest supporter bases in the competition.

I'm pretty sure the AFL care a shit load more about the AFL brand and its value than they care about disgruntled bombers fans.

I somehow doubt that after what the Bombers fans have had to put up with, the league would just say "you know what? This other mob might have been cheating too but who cares."

That's one way of looking at it. Another is, that the AFL after seeing the game dragged through the mud and its brand tarnished , may have thought "shit, we don't want to go through this again, there are a couple of other clubs with question marks over them, but lets just move on as quick as we can from this giant cluster****".

On the balance of things, Geelong are probably ok, because despite having clearly had a quasi relationship with Dank, both via Robinson and their drug purchases, they were smart enough to keep him at more of an arms length than the bombers did. However , Dank also had a habit of dealing with mystery substances, and Geelong never tested the stuff they got from him (and at the time probably had no reason to do so), so anything is possible. More of a concern is Geelong's complete denial of anything but the most trivial of connections, which tends to fuel speculation. Also, if Dank is supplying the gear for injection, is it really that important whether it is him or Geelong club doctors actually injecting it in terms of trusting what is going on, if the material wasn't tested?

 

[hk89]

Blame your mate for scrabbling for ways to denigrate Geelong in this here Hawthorn thread?

What a short memory you have. This shit started in response to a Geelong poster doing exactly what you accusing me of doing.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

"Fell away" all the way to a grand final and a preliminary final.

Yeah

Well, Hawthorn lost the Qualifying by a kick after the siren, but apparently that means we were never in it, we are cooked, and the era is over.

 

[PhatBoy]

But there is a very good reason why that didn't matter. Every drug cheat ever caught says "someone else gave me the stuff'. 100% responsibility for what goes in is the only way it can work. Did feel for the players though, but compared to others - even others in the AFL - they effectively got off scott free before
WADA stepped in, and the AFL oversaw that.



I think you'll find the AFL wanted it over well before then, it wasn't the AFL extending the process but rather other parties like ASADA/Essendon/Hird.



I'm pretty sure the AFL care a shit load more about the AFL brand and its value than they care about disgruntled bombers fans.




That's one way of looking at it. Another is, that the AFL after seeing the game dragged through the mud and its brand tarnished , may have thought "shit, we don't want to go through this again, there are a couple of other clubs with question marks over them, but lets just move on as quick as we can from this giant cluster****".

On the balance of things, Geelong are probably ok, because despite having clearly had a quasi relationship with Dank, both via Robinson and their drug purchases, they were smart enough to keep him at more of an arms length than the bombers did. However , Dank also had a habit of dealing with mystery substances, and Geelong never tested the stuff they got from him (and at the time probably had no reason to do so), so anything is possible. More of a concern is Geelong's complete denial of anything but the most trivial of connections, which tends to fuel speculation. Also, if Dank is supplying the gear for injection, is it really that important whether it is him or Geelong club doctors actually injecting it in terms of trusting what is going on, if the material wasn't tested?

There are too many points here that defy logic for me to reply individually.

But I will say this.

Are you seriously comparing the bombers players saying 'I was given this' when their CLUB, the people who actually DID give it to them, have come out and said that they gave it to them and to this day they don't believe they did anything wrong, to the usual 'someone gave me this without me knowing' excuse that is never, ever confirmed by support staff, doctors etc?

 

[PhatBoy]

Well, Hawthorn lost the Qualifying by a kick after the siren, but apparently that means we were never in it, we are cooked, and the era is over.

Um, yeah somehow I think what happened a week later played a bigger part in that.

 

[hk89]

Are you seriously comparing the bombers players saying 'I was given this' when their CLUB, the people who actually DID give it to them, have come out and said that they gave it to them and to this day they don't believe they did anything wrong, to the usual 'someone gave me this without me knowing' excuse that is never, ever confirmed by support staff, doctors etc?

When the 'someone gave me this without me knowing' excuse is used , sadly it IS very often the case that it was given by support staff, doctors etc. Especially in athletics and other non-AFL sports. In the AFL there have been several cases what that is not the case (i.e. people taking stuff on their own), largely because AFL at the elite level is probably a very clean sport compared to other elite level sports, and the club system compared to individual sports likely makes support staff sanctioned doping much less likely.

I agree there is room to feel sorry for the players, but you can't have an anti-doping system that works and allow "my support staff gave me the stuff without my knowledge" to be a legitimate excuse. Ultimately , I don't think it is a legitimate excuse. The fact is the players were being given something that WADA reasonably believed to be given them an unfair advantage. If the players didn't say no then they ARE partly responsible, although I get that the club system makes it very hard to do that, as you are used to trusting the club, and assuming they always have your best interests at heart. Basically those responsible for the program have gotten off too lightly given the damage they did to players who had little reason to suspect they were jeopardizing their careers.

 

[Whiskers]

Your delusion is hilarious. Geelong could never so much as keep their shit together to back up any of their flags. And the idea that the 2007 flag has anything to do with a potential 2016 flag is ******* stupid.

Be happy for your great era, but history will see Geelong 07-11 as a dominant side, but not an invincible one, as Hawthorn 13-15 will be viewed.

See this is my exact problem. You're deluded, you weren't unbeatable and people have a warped sense of how good you are.
You shouldn't even have made the GF in 2013 if we were full strength.
Umpires got you over the line v port plus they missed a shot.
2015 freo injuries caught up with them and you LOST to WCE

 

[hk89]

Um, yeah somehow I think what happened a week later played a bigger part in that.

Well obviously we were never in it after we were actually out of it

Doggies and GWS were always going to be our kryptonite in the finals series, and it was going to be very unlikely we could avoid both all the way through. We would have been some chance in a GF rematch against Cats given the QF result, but we would have needed to win the QF, then hope Cats beat both doggies and GWS, and also win against Swans in the prelim for the rematch to occur. A bit like the 2011 QF, where Hawks fans will say that was another 'not when it counts' loss, but ultimately it made it very hard for us to win that year, as the loss has done this year. Still not conceding 'when it counts' yet though I'm sure you'll knock us over in a prelim or gf before too long..

 

[detox]

Was he AA?

Irrelivant.

Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk

 

[hk89]

See this is my exact problem. You're deluded, you weren't unbeatable and people have a warped sense of how good you are.

We were obviously beatable, but in Grand finals, 'unbeatable' is a more reasonable assessment when you look at the massacres of 2014/2015.

You shouldn't even have made the GF in 2013 if we were full strength.

What nonsense, you shouldn't have even been close. I've not see us play many games where we dominated the important stats as much as we did in that one and still risk losing.

Umpires got you over the line v port

No they didn't. We were 5 goals up, and some incorrect decisions that went Ports way gave them a run of goals. Oh you are one of those folks who only remembers the last incorrect decision in a game when it suits them right? Guess you are thinking hodge holding the ball? Watch the ENTIRE final quarter again, not just the last few minutes. It would have been daylight robbery if we'd lost that.

Thanks for a view of the last 3 years through the jaded eyes of a Cat's fan though.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Hawthorn isn't a good side anymore, without Roughead and Lake holding up each end of the ground and with half your midfield past its used by date, the plodders in your team have been exposed. Frawley is serviceable but not great, same as Gunston - once Mitchell, Hodge, Gibson and Burgoyne retire and with Hill, Breust and Sicily likely leaving this year I wouldn't be surprised to see Hawthorn in the bottom 4 in 2018.

Sounds more like your fantasy rather than anything based on reality.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Isn't the cup supposed to heal that?

It certainly hasn't.

They've got a prelim against your mob to concerns themselves with yet here they are trying to convince themselves that the Hawks era is dead and buried.

 

[Mr Lizard]

I personally feel the beginning of the end was the 2008 grand final; where Cameron Ling showed the league how to shut down Sam Mitchell, keeping the Hawk captain to just 13 disposals.

 

[beta_condition]

If you won $3mil in the lotto (tax free), and I won $1mil in the lotto 3 separate times - who won the most money?

Having the 3 mill at once would allow for bigger investments meaning more money, thank you for pointing out why b2b have more weight.

 

[SterlingArcher]

Dominance?

You won three flags.

Were hardly dominant.

Yeah who even plays footy to win flags?

 

[hk89]

If you won $3mil in the lotto (tax free), and I won $1mil in the lotto 3 separate times - who won the most money?

Interesting question. Another way of looking at this is to ask how easy is it to win 3 out of 5 compared to 3 in a row.

If you assume you have a very good team with a 50/50 chance of winning the flag each year, you have
a 50% chance of winning at least 3 out of 5 (about 30% of winning exactly 3, but you can also win 4 or 5).

The same team would have a 12.5% of winning 3 in a row.

Pretty clear which is a more impressive achievement.

 

[SterlingArcher]

Geelong won a massive one flag in a row, then fell away, then won a flag, then fell away, then won another flag and then fell away and missed finals....but you have them as better than a side who played off in 4 straight GF's and won 3 in a row.

Your delusion is showing.

You're better than this.

On what earth is winning 23/24 games and then just being beaten on the day in the GRAND FINAL 'falling away'? Come on, that's as moronic as saying the Hawks 3 in a row wasn't 'dominant'.

Same with a preliminary final in 2010 playing an exceptionally underrated team in Collingwood, who incidentally would have flogged all of your GF opponents 13-15 (just to point out that Geelong losing to them wasn't 'falling away').

3 grand finals in a row with 3 flags in 5 years isn't poles apart from 4 grand finals in a row and 3 flags in 3 years. It's still 3 flags.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

You're better than this.

On what earth is winning 23/24 games and then just being beaten on the day in the GRAND FINAL 'falling away'? Come on, that's as moronic as saying the Hawks 3 in a row wasn't 'dominant'.

Same with a preliminary final in 2010 playing an exceptionally underrated team in Collingwood, who incidentally would have flogged all of your GF opponents 13-15 (just to point out that Geelong losing to them wasn't 'falling away').

3 grand finals in a row with 3 flags in 5 years isn't poles apart from 4 grand finals in a row and 3 flags in 3 years. It's still 3 flags.

If Geelong are supposedly a greater side than Hawthorn have been, as this poster was arguing, not winning a flag is indeed "falling away" as that is the KPI the team is being judged against when comparing to a side that has won 3 flags in a row.

People on here seem to underestimate how hard it is to win 1 flag, let alone 3 in a row.

 

[yeee_haaaa!!!!!]

Well, Hawthorn lost the Qualifying by a kick after the siren, but apparently that means we were never in it, we are cooked, and the era is over.

The 'era' or whatever you want to call it is clearly over. They have been a champion team, these Hawks, and their fighting qualities kept them hanging in by the skin of their teeth all year. Let's be honest, they were a total of 30 pts spread over 6 games from missing the 8 completely. Yes they nearly got lucky in the qualifying final and who knows what would have happened if they'd he a week off into a prelim. But it is patently clear they are in decline, and they could easily be next year's freo of 2016. It is a list littered with aging players well past their consistent best, with a lack of any genuine young elite talent pushing up. They got o'rourke wrong, and are now targeting a bloke that hasn't played for 2 years with dodgy knees, a bloke who will find afl life a lot tougher away from the confines of the
Mcg, and a bloke who was struggling for a game at Richmond. The haw list is in terrible shape with a view to the next 5 years

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

The 'era' or whatever you want to call it is clearly over. They have been a champion team, these Hawks, and their fighting qualities kept them hanging in by the skin of their teeth all year. Let's be honest, they were a total of 30 pts spread over 6 games from missing the 8 completely. Yes they nearly got lucky in the qualifying final and who knows what would have happened if they'd he a week off into a prelim. But it is patently clear they are in decline, and they could easily be next year's freo of 2016. It is a list littered with aging players well past their consistent best, with a lack of any genuine young elite talent pushing up. They got o'rourke wrong, and are now targeting a bloke that hasn't played for 2 years with dodgy knees, a bloke who will find afl life a lot tougher away from the confines of the
Mcg, and a bloke who was struggling for a game at Richmond. The haw list is in terrible shape with a view to the next 5 years

If you don't mind I'd like to remind you of this post in about 11 months from now.