Analysis 2010/11 build vs 2017/18 build

[Snake_Baker]

At the end of 2010 we finished with 11 wins and 9th of the Ladder.
At the end of 2011 we finished with 10 wins and 9th of the Ladder.
At the end of 2017 we finished with 6 wins and 15th of the Ladder. If we don't win our last game we finish last on the ladder.

We may have been thumped more often in 2010 and 2011 but we also won a fair number of games.

IMO we were ahead back in 2010 and 2011.

You need to also consider if our Coaching Staff of 2018 is better than the Staff back in 2010 / 11. Are they capable of developing and advancing the current talent we have on our list?

I have lost all faith with Scotts. Joyces aint no better. Yeah and my take is that our Assistants are in cruise mode. I have heard too many whispers from different sources to not think that this is the case. The whole football department needs a thorough review. Why this wasn't undertaken prior to Scotts getting an extra two years on his contract is disappointing and quite frankly unprofessional. But at least we have a Gender Equality Plan. :stern look

Just cut and paste : "blah, blah, blah, blah............I blame Brad Scott" in to every single post you make and save yourself some time.

 

[Snake_Baker]

It's because we rebuilt too quickly tbh, we rose to mid table mediocrity too fast.

This

We need 4 years of top 5 picks imo to really have a base of sustained (I'm talking a decade) contending finals potential.

...and this.

As for JZ, he's been played out of position for 90% of his career.

 

[Pykie]

This




...and this.

As for JZ, he's been played out of position for 90% of his career.

Yeah, I agree to some extent, not blaming him so to speak, it's as much the game moving away from his type more than anything.

In his first year he was being compared to Buckley and Voss, it seemed we had a genuine top midfielder on our hands.

Hopefully he can still continue to improve, he has shades of A grader, especially when he's hitting the scoreboard, but for most of his career hes been a solid B grader at best.

 

[Hazey1977]

Issues still apparent under his tutelage:

Unable to prevent run ons.
Transition defence.
Mismatches in defence.
Inability to create turnovers.

Continued selection of injured players
Continued selection of blokes out of form

 

[Hazey1977]

I think a lot more of our players would get a lot more of the ball if they weren't as focused on guarding empty space and being in no-man's land on the turnover.

Thumbs up to this!!!

I specifically watched Clarke against Richmond and time and time again he was caught between effecting the contest in front of him or giving the opposition a bumtap as they toe poke the ball through from 2m out.

Our systems stink; both development and gameplan!

 

[North Viking]

It's because we rebuilt too quickly tbh, we rose to mid table mediocrity too fast.

A lot of posters are making the same mistakes in most of the commentary I'm reading in a lot of threads recently.

We essentially had two years of high draft picks (Ziebell and Cunnington), realistically, only Cunnington was a relatively high draft pick.

Ziebell has been a major disappointment to date compared to what he potentially appeared to be as a 1st and 2nd year player.

It's insane some people actually expect/want us to rise back up the ladder as early as next year.


The list is nowhere near ready for it, it would simply rehash 2010/2011 again.

We need 4 years of top 5 picks imo to really have a base of sustained (I'm talking a decade) contending finals potential.

Spot on

I was going to post something similar but you articulated it better than what I would of.

On a note 2010/11 wasn’t a full rebuild. More a top up if anything. We went in to fix holes on our list to complement our champions such as Boomer and Wells, and more than handy side acts, like the Dish for example.

The 2010 side however did have higher top end picks than what we have today. Wells and Hansen, pick 2 and 3.

Looking over our 2018 side there are gaping holes in depth and top end talent.
The recent top end draft talent we have on our list are years off being match winners and require much more development. Whilst, as mentioned before our 24-28 group hasn’t gone up a gear. Bar Cunners.

I believe we are only 1 year into our rebuild. As 2016 was weird year and our mid table finish didn’t allow us access to top end talent. Simpkin was a great pick up but pick 12, one can only expect so much....

I believe we will need 2 more years to reinvigorate and overhaul our list, and I am expecting ladder posistioning towards the bottom of the table with this current list.

If we do pick up some gun FA in 2018/19 then I would hope we would have a list full of young talent to maintain an era of success around the 2021-2026.

I don’t see us pushing up the table till 2020. And I’m ok with that. As I am realist.

I am also pleased with how we recruited last year given our picks. I believe we went left field on a few later picks that have high ceilings but are quite unknown. I.E. Will Walker and Kyron Hayden. Add Ahern as another left field pick from 2016. The key to future success will be creative list building over the next 2 drafts.

I think we have done great recruiting over the last 2 years with the picks we have had. Aside from FA obviously.

I think the challenge that Scott’s and co have is in developing our youth, kids only develop so much in the VFL. So I hope to see kids playing senior footy, if form warrants it to a degree.

If by years end I’m not seeing improvement in our kids then I’ll be calling for his head. The heat is on Scotts, no doubt. Though I’m gonna allow him the year to do his work.

I don’t believe the board will stand for zero development in the kids, and will act as they aren’t fools.

I can see the nucleus of something special, though as stated it’s only 1/3 complete. This year is about development not wins for me.

 

[North Viking]

Still very early I know but can only see 3 of those at best doing anything of note, them being Garner, Wood and Clarke. Even then I struggle to see any of them becoming A-Graders.

I would counter and say Garner and Wood both have the potential to both be A graders. We have seen glimpses. Injury has hampered these two for sure.

If Garner stays on the park this year, mark my words he will go up another level again from last year.

Same can be said with Wood. We get 18+ games out of him and we will see improvement.

Clarke, not so much. I don’t see where he fits in. Perhaps a depth player?? I just don’t see much more of a ceiling.

 

[Heaps of fun]

I would counter and say Garner and Wood both have the potential to both be A graders. We have seen glimpses. Injury has hampered these two for sure.

If Garner stays on the park this year, mark my words he will go up another level again from last year.

Same can be said with Wood. We get 18+ games out of him and we will see improvement.

Clarke, not so much. I don’t see where he fits in. Perhaps a depth player?? I just don’t see much more of a ceiling.

Yeah we got ahead of ourselves with the Cousins comparisons on Clarke. Looking more like Matt Rosa atm.

 

[Zondor]

Just cut and paste : "blah, blah, blah, blah............I blame Brad Scott" in to every single post you make and save yourself some time.

You'll soon get it. :stern look

 

[andana]

Quoting from above.

Looking over our 2018 side there are gaping holes in depth and top end talent.
The recent top end draft talent we have on our list are years off being match winners and require much more development. Whilst, as mentioned before our 24-28 group hasn’t gone up a gear. Bar Cunners.

I believe we are only 1 year into our rebuild. As 2016 was weird year and our mid table finish didn’t allow us access to top end talent. Simpkin was a great pick up but pick 12, one can only expect so much....

I believe we will need 2 more years to reinvigorate and overhaul our list, and I am expecting ladder posistioning towards the bottom of the table with this current list.

...........
We traded in M.Williams at pick 105 who is ok, maybe a fill in til someone else pushes up or Sam Wright comes good. Ahern who was a pick 7 ,didn't play last year, could be an A grader if stays healthy, at pick 69 and Hrovat.
Besides Simpkin , in the draft we got Declan Watson, out injured ,J.Williams, a project player and Larkey.

There's plenty of questions about 2016 but it could work out really well and sooner than we expect.

 

[Pykie]

Spot on

I was going to post something similar but you articulated it better than what I would of.

On a note 2010/11 wasn’t a full rebuild. More a top up if anything. We went in to fix holes on our list to complement our champions such as Boomer and Wells, and more than handy side acts, like the Dish for example.

The 2010 side however did have higher top end picks than what we have today. Wells and Hansen, pick 2 and 3.

Looking over our 2018 side there are gaping holes in depth and top end talent.
The recent top end draft talent we have on our list are years off being match winners and require much more development. Whilst, as mentioned before our 24-28 group hasn’t gone up a gear. Bar Cunners.

I believe we are only 1 year into our rebuild. As 2016 was weird year and our mid table finish didn’t allow us access to top end talent. Simpkin was a great pick up but pick 12, one can only expect so much....

I believe we will need 2 more years to reinvigorate and overhaul our list, and I am expecting ladder posistioning towards the bottom of the table with this current list.

If we do pick up some gun FA in 2018/19 then I would hope we would have a list full of young talent to maintain an era of success around the 2021-2026.

I don’t see us pushing up the table till 2020. And I’m ok with that. As I am realist.

I am also pleased with how we recruited last year given our picks. I believe we went left field on a few later picks that have high ceilings but are quite unknown. I.E. Will Walker and Kyron Hayden. Add Ahern as another left field pick from 2016. The key to future success will be creative list building over the next 2 drafts.

I think we have done great recruiting over the last 2 years with the picks we have had. Aside from FA obviously.

I think the challenge that Scott’s and co have is in developing our youth, kids only develop so much in the VFL. So I hope to see kids playing senior footy, if form warrants it to a degree.

If by years end I’m not seeing improvement in our kids then I’ll be calling for his head. The heat is on Scotts, no doubt. Though I’m gonna allow him the year to do his work.

I don’t believe the board will stand for zero development in the kids, and will act as they aren’t fools.

I can see the nucleus of something special, though as stated it’s only 1/3 complete. This year is about development not wins for me.

Whilst I don't exactly think Carlton is a beacon of performance in a rebuild, I think they have gone about things the right way over the last 2-3 years with the recruitment of Marchbank, Kennedy, Plowman, Ah Chee etc

They might not be stars, but they are good young players they have gotten for unders which will only really strengthen their depth down the track.

I'd be going heavily after any top Victorian (Hopper for example isnt Victorian but boarded here) draft pick currently in NSW or QLD in the next 2-3 years:

Taranto, McCluggage, Scrimshaw, Brodie, Setterfield, Witherden, Bonar, Hopper & Fiorini.

Setterfield is an interesting one for the end of this year given he is coming off of an ACL.

 

[Heaps of fun]

Whilst I don't exactly think Carlton is a beacon of performance in a rebuild, I think they have gone about things the right way over the last 2-3 years with the recruitment of Marchbank, Kennedy, Plowman, Ah Chee etc

They might not be stars, but they are good young players they have gotten for unders which will only really strengthen their depth down the track.

I'd be going heavily after any top Victorian (Hopper for example isnt Victorian but boarded here) draft pick currently in NSW or QLD in the next 2-3 years:

Taranto, McCluggage, Scrimshaw, Brodie, Setterfield, Witherden, Bonar, Hopper & Fiorini.

Setterfield is an interesting one for the end of this year given he is coming off of an ACL.

Ah Chee? Do you mean Garlett?
We could offer Setterfield a lot more than GWS could. Would be a bit of a risky move culture wise but could have a big pay off.

 

[Pykie]

Ah Chee? Do you mean Garlett?
We could offer Setterfield a lot more than GWS could. Would be a bit of a risky move culture wise but could have a big pay off.

Sorry, Pickett and Garlett.

 

[GreatBradScott]

I want to know what Brad wants to do that if different to the first cycle he presided over.

This. You get another go, but explain what's different this time around.

 

[King Corey]

This. You get another go, but explain what's different this time around.

More pay obviously.

 

[RobZombie]

I think you are utilising a little too much hindsight there mate.

Based upon where those players were at in 2010 compared to present players in 2017:

• Petrie < Brown
  
• Hansen (not replaced due to modern tactics)
  
• Tarrant = Tarrant (improved)
  
• Goldstein = Goldstein (improved)
  
• Thompson = Thompson (improved)
  
• Grima < Tarrant
  
• McMahon < Williams
  
• Adams < Higgins
  
• Harvey > Everyone
  
• Rawlings ~ Jacobs (when fit)
  
• Ziebell = Ziebell (improved)
  
• Wright = Wright (improved, when fit)
  
• Greenwood < Dumont
  
• Swallow ~ Cunnington
  
• Firrito < McDonald

• Thomas: Too difficult to assess considering injuries to Turner & Wood and a lack of data to support Simpkin, but I would draft Simpkin over LT based on when they were 18 year olds.

The important part of that list is

Harvey > Everyone
also, arguably Wells > Everyone (although possibly Wells ~ Higgins)

Tarrant > anyone we've plonked at full back since Micky and not comparable to 2010 KPF Tarrant at all.
Goldstein = Goldstein
Brown > Petrie as a pure FF but less versatile
2010 Greenwood wasn't much chop but by the time he left had some occasional games well beyond what Dumont has done. Fine with Greenwood ~ Dumont, but the good part is it can be equally Greenwood ~ Mountford or Greenwood ~ Hayden. Fight it out lads.
Wright the inconsistent HFF < Wright the reliable HBF but Garner > Wright at HF.
Turner >>> Speight
Wood ??? Azza Edwards

1st-2nd year or outside the 22,
Simpkin > Matt Campbell
Hartung > Liam Anthony
McKay > Josh Smith
Preuss > HMac (based on what Hamish turned out to have left in him, not how he was in 2010)
Maj > Ben Mabon
Anderson ~ Cruize Garlett
EVW > Ayden Kennedy
Hibberd > Urquhart (projecting my optimistic view of Hibberd against what actually became of Gav)
Zurhaar >? Ben Warren

I said this on the pod last year, but I reckon we're comfortably better off down the list this time around, and hopefully the survival of the fittest among surplus young mids we have right now will serve us well. The problem obviously is where does the game-breaking type come from.

 

[Le Grille]

1st-2nd year or outside the 22,
Simpkin > Matt Campbell
Hartung > Liam Anthony
McKay > Josh Smith
Preuss > HMac (based on what Hamish turned out to have left in him, not how he was in 2010)
Maj > Ben Mabon
Anderson ~ Cruize Garlett
EVW > Ayden Kennedy
Hibberd > Urquhart (projecting my optimistic view of Hibberd against what actually became of Gav)
Zurhaar >? Ben Warren

You could be right, but not one of those (maybe simpkin) have not proven that yet in terms of impact on the AFL side.

 

[Harris 10]

When i think about the current rebuild I keep coming back to this.

Tarrant, Cunnington, Goldy, Waite, Thompson, Waite, Higgins won't play in a final again for us and how do we best manage their careers going forward so it can set us up for the future.

Is it helping younsters develop or is it by moving them on?.

 

[Mav]

When i think about the current rebuild I keep coming back to this.

Tarrant, Cunnington, Goldy, Waite, Thompson, Waite, Higgins won't play in a final again for us and how do we best manage their careers going forward so it can set us up for the future.

Is it helping younsters develop or is it by moving them on?.

You do know Ziebell is older than Cunnington?

 

[Harris 10]

You do know Ziebell is older than Cunnington?

yep, he should be on the list as well.

 

[Mav]

yep, he should be on the list as well.

Wright is older than both of them so add him to the list?

Jacobs is only 6 months younger than Cunnington so may as well cut him. And Brown was born the same year as Jacobs so we should trade him, no point having him for 1 year of finals.

 

[RobZombie]

You could be right, but not one of those (maybe simpkin) have not proven that yet in terms of impact on the AFL side.

Given the combined senior games total of Kennedy and Mabon, I'm pretty confident about EVW and Maj already .

And I know it's not the best hill to die on, but I'll stand by my claim that Jed is no worse than Cruize.

Should be uncontroversial to be optimistic about McKay being better than Josh Smith?

Hamish was a good player before Goldy took his job but played 7 games for us after 2010.

Can take or leave Hartung at the moment but he's just as outside as LA, faster and a better kick.

I admit I'm not buying into the doom and gloom about Hibberd after 3 senior games, but SupaGav played 8 games in 2010 and only one more after that.

Anyway, my point was that while it's easy to look at the top dozen players in that 2009-2011 era and say they were pretty good, there were some honest toilers at best as you go down the list.

 

[Moti]

What build? (Insert year)


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Le Grille]

Given the combined senior games total of Kennedy and Mabon, I'm pretty confident about EVW and Maj already .

And I know it's not the best hill to die on, but I'll stand by my claim that Jed is no worse than Cruize.

Should be uncontroversial to be optimistic about McKay being better than Josh Smith?

Hamish was a good player before Goldy took his job but played 7 games for us after 2010.

Can take or leave Hartung at the moment but he's just as outside as LA, faster and a better kick.

I admit I'm not buying into the doom and gloom about Hibberd after 3 senior games, but SupaGav played 8 games in 2010 and only one more after that.

Anyway, my point was that while it's easy to look at the top dozen players in that 2009-2011 era and say they were pretty good, there were some honest toilers at best as you go down the list.

Agreed but I think your judgements are based on potential of many of that group, particularly Hibberd/McKay/Pruess and Jed has actually contributed less than cruise. I agree they should be better in all of those cases, but in terms of actual contribution to the senior side that list has not yet outperformed their previous iterations. My point is can we harness this potential. Im 50/50

 

[Harris 10]

Wright is older than both of them so add him to the list?

Jacobs is only 6 months younger than Cunnington so may as well cut him. And Brown was born the same year as Jacobs so we should trade him, no point having him for 1 year of finals.

Did i say we should cut any of them?