Autopsy 54 point loss to Fremantle

[cecil]

Bring Daniel Bandy out of retirement!

Screw the premiership, that half year Bandy played out of his skin was my pinnacle of being a Dogs supporter!

 

[Dry Rot]

Screw the premiership, that half year Bandy played out of his skin was my pinnacle of being a Dogs supporter!

How many times can I like this?

After that golden season in 2002, I knew we'd win a flag within 15 years.

 

[dogwatch]

Fair enough.

But something(s) gone seriously wrong with our club in the last 18 months, beyond just injuries.

What's your theory?

Not sure I buy the premise of the question. Which "something" are you referring to?

Some things have gone wrong as they do in any business or club from year to year. We have made a few mistakes (in the football area) in my opinion. But I haven't seen enough evidence to say it's anything other than the ordinary cycle of a footy club. Random misjudgements and oversights maybe, but not systemic failings of a club in crisis.

If we look for and only register the bad news we become blind to the good things that have been going on.

 

[cecil]

How many times can I like this?

1. But I think the point of the conversation is you either have to like it about 5 times, or not at all. No midground

 

[Dry Rot]

1. But I think the point of the conversation is you either have to like it about 5 times, or not at all. No midground

Ok, I'm busy registering 4 aliases, I'll get back to you.

 

[Dry Rot]

Not sure I buy the premise of the question. Which "something" are you referring to?

Some things have gone wrong as they do in any business or club from year to year. We have made a few mistakes (in the football area) in my opinion. But I haven't seen enough evidence to say it's anything other than the ordinary cycle of a footy club. Random misjudgements and oversights maybe, but not systemic failings of a club in crisis.

If we look for and only register the bad news we become blind to the good things that have been going on.

Fair enough, s**t happens.

But surely not that many premiers fail to make the semis the following year?

And then not many finish likely bottom 4 another year later?

It seems to me something(s) have gone seriously wrong. Not sure what they are.

 

[cecil]

Not sure I buy the premise of the question. Which "something" are you referring to?

Some things have gone wrong as they do in any business or club from year to year. We have made a few mistakes (in the football area) in my opinion. But I haven't seen enough evidence to say it's anything other than the ordinary cycle of a footy club. Random misjudgements and oversights maybe, but not systemic failings of a club in crisis.

If we look for and only register the bad news we become blind to the good things that have been going on.

I think a lot comes down to lack of experience. We were awfully conservative after 2016 and it's now being felt with our hand forced through injuries.

2016 post season:
OUT: Stevens, Adcock, Minson, Hamling, Hrovat and Stevens. That is a lot of experience gone.
Replaced by: Cloke, and a bunch of kids.

2017 post season:
OUT: Murphy, Cloke, Boyd, Crameri, Stringer. Even more experience gone.
IN: Crozier, Trengove, and kids.

Now 2018:
Libba, Picken, Morris, Adams, Smith haven't played. Crozier, Trengove, Boyd and Dickson all barely. That's 5 of our top 10 most experienced players, and another 4 mature agers as well. If even 5 of them play all year, we beat Sydney, and are probably 5 goals better in the big losses.

After 2016 we really should probably have retired Murphy (sacrilege I know), and gone after guys like Ricky Henderson, Michael Hibberd and Jack Steele. We went after Nankervis and Deledio and missed out, but we should have at least brought in a couple of decent experienced foot soldiers as rookies to drive training standards, and to act as a stop gap so we don't need to play 5 19yos in Perth.

I fear it will get worse as it's now odds on that we lose Picken, Morris, Dickson and Clay Smith at the end of the year, and we really can't replace them with another 4 18yo's. We need at least another 3 older players on the list if they go.

 

[dogwatch]

I think a lot comes down to lack of experience. We were awfully conservative after 2016 and it's now being felt with our hand forced through injuries.

2016 post season:
OUT: Stevens, Adcock, Minson, Hamling, Hrovat and Stevens. That is a lot of experience gone.
Replaced by: Cloke, and a bunch of kids.

2017 post season:
OUT: Murphy, Cloke, Boyd, Crameri, Stringer. Even more experience gone.
IN: Crozier, Trengove, and kids.

Now 2018:
Libba, Picken, Morris, Adams, Smith haven't played. Crozier, Trengove, Boyd and Dickson all barely. That's 5 of our top 10 most experienced players, and another 4 mature agers as well. If even 5 of them play all year, we beat Sydney, and are probably 5 goals better in the big losses.

After 2016 we really should probably have retired Murphy (sacrilege I know), and gone after guys like Ricky Henderson, Michael Hibberd and Jack Steele. We went after Nankervis and Deledio and missed out, but we should have at least brought in a couple of decent experienced foot soldiers as rookies to drive training standards, and to act as a stop gap so we don't need to play 5 19yos in Perth.

I fear it will get worse as it's now odds on that we lose Picken, Morris, Dickson and Clay Smith at the end of the year, and we really can't replace them with another 4 18yo's. We need at least another 3 older players on the list if they go.

There's your answer Dry Rot !
As you say, random s**t happens in the universe. Maybe copping so much random s**t was the trade-off for getting that wink from it in 2016. (Still a very worthwhile deal IMO!)

Very well put, cecil.
How many times can I like this post

 

[go you pups]

There is always going to be changers from 1 year to another. Can't expect the same premiership side 2 years later. Injuries hasn't helped bu the biggest issues at the moment is our game plan which took us to a premiership in 2016 is not just "our" game plan anymore. Other sides are doing it and also sides who can spread better and have better forward structures.

Our list management since the premiership has been poor. Too many talls who aren't good enough. The game is moving towards 18 to 19 onboarders per side with 2 traditional talls and 1 ruck.

We have gone the opposite, drafting players like Trengove and keeping Roberts and Campbell on the list.

Look at our Footscray team at the moment, not 1 up and coming onballer you would promote. Hayes is the best down there.

Can't agree with the game is moving towards a pure midfield game sentiment.

North dismantled Hawthorn with a dominant taller structure, aided by immense pressure from their smalls, while Adelaide beat Sydney with nearly their whole first choice midfield out, but Adelaides tall structures down back kept Buddy rather toothless, while they were able to keep the score ticking over up the other end, lead by Tex, imo their strong structures helped win them that game.

We lost the game against Sydney when we lost all structure either side of half time by not having a tall target to kick to or bring the ball to ground. In 2016 we had structure and some sort of spine, not so much at the moment.

Zaine is the prototype tall at the moment, not overly tall, but has the long arms for a decent reach, but most importantly he plays with aggression, which not many talls at the club have. Hamling would have fit the bill here too, while Naughton probably will providing his short kicking disposal improves. Adams is probably the right size too, but can never keep fit. Boyd is the right size for a ruck-forward, just need a few 6"3-6"4 types to complement him that is not named Bontempelli who should play mainly midfield. Perhaps there is a role for Greene in the team eventually as he is that medium size that we haven't had since Crameri and Stringer.

 

[Mattdougie]

The thing is most of that list is either debatable, of borderline laughable.

Yeah coz nothing is wrong at all that’s why we are flying

The laughable part is people still can’t see how obvious it is something is wrong

 

[go you pups]

Screw the premiership, that half year Bandy played out of his skin was my pinnacle of being a Dogs supporter!

If only we won a few of them first 5 weeks and beat Essendon instead of drawn with them, thought we played some good footy that year at times, much better than 2000-01.

 

[Spectre]

Fair enough.

But something(s) gone seriously wrong with our club in the last 18 months, beyond just injuries.

What's your theory?

What about the injuries themselves? This is at least the third straight year that we have lead (or been close to leading) the injury table. We also cop what appears to be a disproportionate amount of ACLs. Have we/are we looking into why that is, or are we waiting for the AFLPA to seek legal action against us before investigating?

 

[cecil]

Yeah coz nothing is wrong at all that’s why we are flying

The laughable part is people still can’t see how obvious it is something is wrong

Didn't say that. I'm just saying the argument is disserviced when a heap of very debatable things get stuck on to a list like that. For example, I totally agree about the changing of coaching structures. You could understand switching one or two, but all of them is just ridiculous.

I rebutted the ones I didn't agree with. What comments of mine do you disagree with?

 

[JJHunter]

So many issues after a flag.
A lot of posters have shared that view.
What is the most important issue ?
And who is most at fault for these problems?

I’d like to throw in the stringer schache trade deals - we sit here potentially having given up pick 19-24 in a super draft to get the stringer picks deal done. It was desperate at the time and just gets worse when the realisation hits that west if not going before pick 25 and that the draft is going to have high quality. Meaning we could have had pick 2-5. 20-24 and then get west.

Whether it was the optics of the trade or not it stank of desperation and it’s going to really really hurt come November.. I won’t go into the facts it was a week of tension between recruiting staff and bevo as a result... actually I will...

1. I know for a fact that McCartney didn't agree with the decision to trade out Jake. That decision come from Beveridge, only Beveridge wanted nothing to do with the delivery of that message. It was left to McCartney who clearly was uncomfortable with the decision. (Beveridge did the same thing with Michael Talia). I don't mind either decision by the way but in these cases leaving the delivering of the message to the list manager and not giving the the player an ear to the coach who was behind the decision is a poor look and one that filters down and has filtered through other players on the list. "I wonder if he would do that to me"

2. In trade week Dalrmyple and Beveridge clearly butted heads on numerous occasions. The choice of who to draft early and the Schache trades were the major two sticking points in draft/trade week. Again beveridge got his way and alienated Dalrymple who was already hanging by a thread (after not being considered for the list manager position and having to report to someone with less experience) but later decided to cut that thread.

So when Barrett speaks to these matters I know he is reporting facts.
Alot of his other rubbish has to be only pure speculation.

 

[JJHunter]

Yeah coz nothing is wrong at all that’s why we are flying

The laughable part is people still can’t see how obvious it is something is wrong

Where there is smoke there is fire / but in our case the fire is clear to see.

While people can find an out (youth and age of side) they will choose to push that point rather than turn around and face the reality -

that there has been mismanagement of the club, there are problems with the coaching group and the playing list is simply not that good.

 

[BRWB]

M_16 asked for some fact-based evidence. Rattling off a grab-bag of one-liners is not a self evident proof. Punters being gullible to that sort of thinking is what made Cambridge Analytica so successful.

Anyway the original claim that TMoney was trying to provide evidence for, was mismanagement of the team and players. I don't see how Alberti not getting in the VIP gate in any way supports that claim. Or whether or not we have had 1 or 3 CEOs. Or whether Danny McGinlay is still doing the banners.

I'm open to persuasion on this question (i.e. whether we have mismanaged team and players) but I haven't seen anything to suggest it's not the usual mix of mistakes, mundanities and masterstrokes that you get from just about any AFL club administration.

I'm often critical of the club in certain areas and of Beveridge and other WB people in certain actions, but I don't readily buy the sensationalist "club is in crisis" or "club is chronically incompetent" claims. They have in fact got a lot right over the last few years as any sort of historical perspective should show. On-field success, record membership, erasure of long term debt and strong community involvement would surely be the top four KPIs any club would want to tick off.

Sure it'd would've been nice to go back-to-back in 2017 but gee, we can be incredibly harsh and shortsighted sometimes!

Not suggesting our club is in crisis. But at least two off field factors are affecting performance:

1 - our ist and injury management that sees us with one of the biggest injury lists for the third year ruñning. We either arent managing our club effectuvely to minimise injuries and/or we have been keeping far too many perpetually injured players on the list.

2 - our kicking. Its failed to improve and if anything got worse. bev should be familiar with the Hawks state of the art kicking improvement program. Yet all he has is a vague reaponse that all coaches teach kicking. Inexusable, particularly with acess to a university.

The s**t show that has been our list manager has finally been addressed while throwing the baby (Dal) out with the bathwater. How the hell we ended up with a list so unbalanced with too many talls and poor kickers is a disgrace. Loving how we traded for a KPD and HB while also drafting a KPD and a HB....while we have no mids, and the Stringer and Schache trades were laughably bad.

 

[maddog37]

This thread really is the ultimate example of things never being as good or as bad as they seem.

 

[JJHunter]

This thread really is the ultimate example of things never being as good or as bad as they seem.

Things are pretty bad right now.

18 months on from a flag we are looking down the barrell of a bottom four finish.
Not sure there has been any bigger fall from the top in recent AFL history.

 

[maddog37]

Things are pretty bad right now.

18 months on from a flag we are looking down the barrell of a bottom four finish.
Not sure there has been any bigger fall from the top in recent AFL history.

Stress out all you want. Not sure how that helps much.

 

[Metal]

Fair enough, s**t happens.

But surely not that many premiers fail to make the semis the following year?

And then not many finish likely bottom 4 another year later?

It seems to me something(s) have gone seriously wrong. Not sure what they are.

I can tell you what has happened. We had a group of players who played out of their skins to win 4 finals using a method that surprised everyone. The handball club, the small forward line, the swarm.....have since been used and perfected by most other clubs. The 3rd man up rule is also gone.

Take away the element of surprise where others can now do what we did but so much better and we fall back to the pack. Then add our woeful disposal and lack of experience and we are going to struggle. We have lost Libba, a key to the extraction way we played, and we have lost experience in the back line, a key to knowing where and how to set up. And the loss of 3rd man up, given our centre / stoppage deficiencies, cannot be overstated.

The team has had to be recast given our injuries and form. Does that, in any way, mean there is something wrong at the club?

 

[Johnny_Dogg4]

I’d like to throw in the stringer schache trade deals - we sit here potentially having given up pick 19-24 in a super draft to get the stringer picks deal done. It was desperate at the time and just gets worse when the realisation hits that west if not going before pick 25 and that the draft is going to have high quality. Meaning we could have had pick 2-5. 20-24 and then get west.

Whether it was the optics of the trade or not it stank of desperation and it’s going to really really hurt come November.. I won’t go into the facts it was a week of tension between recruiting staff and bevo as a result... actually I will...

1. I know for a fact that McCartney didn't agree with the decision to trade out Jake. That decision come from Beveridge, only Beveridge wanted nothing to do with the delivery of that message. It was left to McCartney who clearly was uncomfortable with the decision. (Beveridge did the same thing with Michael Talia). I don't mind either decision by the way but in these cases leaving the delivering of the message to the list manager and not giving the the player an ear to the coach who was behind the decision is a poor look and one that filters down and has filtered through other players on the list. "I wonder if he would do that to me"

2. In trade week Dalrmyple and Beveridge clearly butted heads on numerous occasions. The choice of who to draft early and the Schache trades were the major two sticking points in draft/trade week. Again beveridge got his way and alienated Dalrymple who was already hanging by a thread (after not being considered for the list manager position and having to report to someone with less experience) but later decided to cut that thread.

So when Barrett speaks to these matters I know he is reporting facts.
Alot of his other rubbish has to be only pure speculation.

So what your saying is beveridge is trying to control everything at the club ? He wants his way or no way ?

Some have said him and Gordon run the club with an iron first

It looks like bevo just like a lot of successful coaches have got power hungry

 

[SCRAY72]

I can tell you what has happened. We had a group of players who played out of their skins to win 4 finals using a method that surprised everyone. The handball club, the small forward line, the swarm.....have since been used and perfected by most other clubs. The 3rd man up rule is also gone.

Take away the element of surprise where others can now do what we did but so much better and we fall back to the pack. Then add our woeful disposal and lack of experience and we are going to struggle. We have lost Libba, a key to the extraction way we played, and we have lost experience in the back line, a key to knowing where and how to set up. And the loss of 3rd man up, given our centre / stoppage deficiencies, cannot be overstated.

The team has had to be recast given our injuries and form. Does that, in any way, mean there is something wrong at the club?

Spot on. Experienced the joy of a premiership before it turned pear shaped. Ask a Saints supporter if they would like to swap places.

 

[Contador]

People still losing their minds after a couple of bad games. Toughen up everyone.

We're a young team in transition, finding our path back to the top. Chill out and enjoy the ride.

 

[JJHunter]

Stress out all you want. Not sure how that helps much.

You said things arent as bad as they seem - All I am saying is that I dont agree with it.
Things are pretty damn bad right now.

If we dont win at least 2 of the next three then you will see me stress !

 

[True Dog]

People still losing their minds after a couple of bad games. Toughen up everyone.

We're a young team in transition, finding our path back to the top. Chill out and enjoy the ride.

The question is how did we allow this to happen so quickly? We were young when we won the flag we should have foreseen this? I’ve been on this ride for 50 years and was hoping for a little more glory before returning to the darker times.