Strategy Are the new rules for 2019 from the shadows designed to stop Richmond's unique successful set-up?

[THECHIEFTON]

But is it every stoppage, as joelsyt said, or only centre bounces, which is what I've heard Huge difference obviously. If it's every stoppage, it will be a joke. If it's only the forwards, as I suggested, the backs will press up to the centre. So if it's not a zone, the forwards sprint forward to the centre to man them up, and then another stoppage, and they have to jog back, and everyone waits till they get back.

Not sure....not sure they know yet. I hope it doesn't happen full stop.

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

They still stuff up awarding correct free kicks...
They still stuff up awarding correct score reviews...
Can you imagine the sheet and chaos that this sheet rule will introduce...

 

[Rodney Dangerfield]

It’s just people longing for the past. I will stop following footy if it happens.
Footy was great back then and it is in its own way now, where players with different attributes play differently. All these idiots are trying to do is suppress it.

 

[Defibrillate]

This is a topic that frustrates the hell out of me. My $0.02 - let the game evolve on its own.

What is currently happening is that pressure on the Ball has developed more rapidly than the skills of the average player. The pressure ratings have progressively ramped up over the last 3-4 years and skill levels are stagnant in a congested pressurised environment. The result is poor execution which looks awful. The solution is pretty simple - improve the skills (including recruiting for greater skill). If you want to see the solution - watch the first half of our Prelim final last year when GWS could beat our press pretty readily. It was impressive but in the end pressure held sway over the full 120 minutes. By tinkering with the rules now I think we’re actually condemning the game to the acceptance of poor skills whereas I think we should demand its improvement. This will take time but it’s all part of the games evolution.

As a close follower of the round Ball game, AFL is frustrating for its lack of tactical nouse historically (its only recently been addressed in the last 10-15 years) and the testosterone based philosophy to sorting problems is still hugely prevalent. We essentially have a possession based game of skill and brains - but statistically, given the potential rectruiting population, over 18 teams we currently have a shallow gene pool. Soccer has faced the pressure dilemma (eg Borussia Dortmund under Juergen Klopp) but solutions evolved over a few years. By tinkering at the first sight of any problem lessens the integrity of the game, creates more problems than you started with and condemns skill development to stay poor which will definitely hurt the game in the long run. The AFL needs to be patient and watch for evolution. The modern coaches are clever and will solve these problems. And what we are seeing week after week with the Tiges is finals like football which seems to only have merit in everyone’s eyes come September - perplexing!!

In the mean time come and get us!!

Rant over.

 

[DoItForCaptBlood]

7 teams got over 100 points and 3 others in the 90's.
Leave the rules alone campaigners!!

 

[HTT]

This is a topic that frustrates the hell out of me. My $0.02 - let the game evolve on its own.

What is currently happening is that pressure on the Ball has developed more rapidly than the skills of the average player. The pressure ratings have progressively ramped up over the last 3-4 years and skill levels are stagnant in a congested pressurised environment. The result is poor execution which looks awful. The solution is pretty simple - improve the skills (including recruiting for greater skill). If you want to see the solution - watch the first half of our Prelim final last year when GWS could beat our press pretty readily. It was impressive but in the end pressure held sway over the full 120 minutes. By tinkering with the rules now I think we’re actually condemning the game to the acceptance of poor skills whereas I think we should demand its improvement. This will take time but it’s all part of the games evolution.

As a close follower of the round Ball game, AFL is frustrating for its lack of tactical nouse historically (its only recently been addressed in the last 10-15 years) and the testosterone based philosophy to sorting problems is still hugely prevalent. We essentially have a possession based game of skill and brains - but statistically, given the potential rectruiting population, over 18 teams we currently have a shallow gene pool. Soccer has faced the pressure dilemma (eg Borussia Dortmund under Juergen Klopp) but solutions evolved over a few years. By tinkering at the first sight of any problem lessens the integrity of the game, creates more problems than you started with and condemns skill development to stay poor which will definitely hurt the game in the long run. The AFL needs to be patient and watch for evolution. The modern coaches are clever and will solve these problems. And what we are seeing week after week with the Tiges is finals like football which seems to only have merit in everyone’s eyes come September - perplexing!!

In the mean time come and get us!!

Rant over.

Yep.
Coaches aren't working on pressure any more. They're simply ensuring theirs is up to standard with the rest of the competition. Coaches are now working on how to beat the pressure - because that will be a major point of difference if you can figure it out, and that's what wins flags.

By changing the rules to negate pressure, coaches will have to waste time trying to get pressure back to where it is now, and then start working on how to beat it again. Pressure is king and rules won't dethrone it.

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

Yeah pressure comes in many guises...speed...tall marking KP players...forward press...midfield clearances...big bodied players...blah blahhh
Currently pressure comes in Richmond colours of Team first...plus 4 out and out champions...

 

[Dr Tigris]

First it was the 10m exclusion rule around/for the player that has the mark/free...we copped 5 in our opening game....now that rule is less prominent...
Now the boutique free kick rule is the block!
Maggotts cannot differentiate between a real block in a marking/ruck attempts and physically standing your ground...
Now we have frees awarded to players who trip over oppo's who are on the ground hunting the ball...not taking out the legs of players...
Maggotts just invent sheet!

It's not the umpires that develop the interpretations. It's the AFL. I'd hate the have to umpire to a rule like the 'taking the legs out'. Player A goes for the ball and gets there 1/4 second ahead of player B. Player B is well drilled an doesn't go for the ball and gets the free. Umpires are doing what they are told.

If the rules all had the first basis that the player going for the ball is 'right' then so much would be better. The AFL being so 'clever' causes many of these problems. Just establish a convention in rule interpretation that the player making the play should get the benefit of any doubt. Player grabs the ball on the ground then the guy running over them is inn the wrong. Player takes out another players legs and doesn't go near the ball then free kick for tripping. Player gets tackled and doesn't dispose of the ball then the tackler is making the play and gets the free. Player pulls the ball in and doesn't dispose of it then they are trying to not make a play and so gives away a free (correct right now in how it is adjudicated).

I reckon that would clean up so much stuff. Makes it much clearer cut and consistent. And rewards going for the ball rather than trying to milk a free.

 

[Tiger Toffee]

Can't wait till Razar has to tell the zone he is in to stand still so he can count to make sure each team has 6 each, deliberate momentum killer will be employed by coaches who will send the runners out to tell players to hang back until the umpire counts and then they count the other two zones to see what numbers they have, it will be Benny Hill music time.

 

[tigernsw]

Here is a novel idea. Leave the rules alone.

Make umpires pay frees according to the rules. How many incorrect disposals/holding the balls don’t get paid leading to more players getting to the contest which causes what? oh yes congestion and let’s not forget the letting the play go so long it turns into the Royal Rumble.

Expanding the competition to 18 teams in two non football markets spread the talent pool too thin. If you wanted teams in those markets force minnow vic clubs like lolnorf to move and keep it at 16 teams.

None of these proposed changes will make any difference to congestion, skill level or so called look of the game

Less interchange and 16 on the field will make skills worse as players get more tired.

Zones/set starting position at centre bounces make no difference because as soon as it’s bounced teams can drop a loose back, push a spare up to the stoppage etc.

25m goal square is just ridiculous. A kick in will go past the centre square and teams will just push zones back to defend it. Just making congestion in a different area on the ground.

Been saying this for ages. Lose the prior opportunity (or at least be very harsh) and pay incorrect disposal.
There has been more throws this year than ever before yet more free kicks that ever before - which is crazy as they don't pay the throws.

Would open the game up as players need to get rid of it quicker and less stoppages with more holding the ball calls.

This small tweak is all that is needed yet people are hitting the panic button when the sollution is simple. Too many dumb bastards involved in the decision process and they'll stuff it up for sure. Gill's legacy - ruined the game

 

[RunningBounce]

I was thinking about this more on the weekend - after watching Richmond vs Sydney and then Dogs vs Cats. Two consecutive games that are as good as any I’ve seen in a decade, outside of finals.

WTF are we always talking about the rules and the umpires?

The footy is the great thing. The players. The coaching. The goals, the tackles, the marks. FFS, the best thing that the rules and the umpires can be is invisible.

It's almost like ambitious suits have sniffed out a pot of money but they have Innovation Targets to meet before they get their bonus.

The only rule that I want to see brought in for 2019 - no footy administrator is allowed to earn more the $100k a year.

It's a very comfortable wage, but low enough to keep the greedy vultures away. And there's plenty who would do it for less because they love the game. I don't see any evidence that anyone in AFL House loves the game. You don't try this hard to change something you love.

 

[Charlie Pannam]

Don’t reckon the zone rules will have much affect on us because we have so many good one on one players. I’ll back Rance, Grimes , Astbury to beat their direct opponents, And imagine Jack Dusty and Rioli with extra space in the forward 50

 

[SA Tiger RVZ]

Been saying this for ages. Lose the prior opportunity (or at least be very harsh) and pay incorrect disposal.
There has been more throws this year than ever before yet more free kicks that ever before - which is crazy as they don't pay the throws.

Would open the game up as players need to get rid of it quicker and less stoppages with more holding the ball calls.

This small tweak is all that is needed yet people are hitting the panic button when the sollution is simple. Too many dumb bastards involved in the decision process and they'll stuff it up for sure. Gill's legacy - ruined the game

Prior opportunity should only come in to effect if the player with the ball can’t get it out legally. As soon as it is let go or thrown then it’s immideately incorrect disposal which actually has nothing to do with opportunity to get rid of it.

Absolutely it would open it up, as less players get drawn into the area of the ball as it repeatedly gets incorrectly disposed of.

The custodians of the game can’t think logically, so they wouldn’t even see it as a solution.

 

[Cotcho]

I really wish someone would start a petition to stop communist gil from changing the bloody rules again. I'm so sick of it. The whole state of the game crap was born from the negative media in a slow news week and has grown into a self fulfilling prophecy. Uninformed gooses like Gary Lyon were writing articles pre-season about Richmond being bad for the game when we were the highest scoring team at the back end of last year and have demonstrated that again this year with a % of 135 at Round 16.

It's pathetic and if people want the game to be held in the manner in which we would like it, we'd stop these muppets from hijacking the game and constantly changing rules. It completely trivialises the sport and makes it look absolutely stupid against sports like soccer...who aren't changing the rules every year.

No more rule changes for 5 years rule should be the only new rule in 2019.

 

[rmcq]

Yep.
Coaches aren't working on pressure any more. They're simply ensuring theirs is up to standard with the rest of the competition. Coaches are now working on how to beat the pressure - because that will be a major point of difference if you can figure it out, and that's what wins flags.

By changing the rules to negate pressure, coaches will have to waste time trying to get pressure back to where it is now, and then start working on how to beat it again. Pressure is king and rules won't dethrone it.

In fact this year Richmond clearly expected more pressure from other teams and have made heavy use of the long forward handball to break through congestion, and taps to advantage to avoid taking possession (and therefore avoid a tackle).

Long direct accurate kicks like GWS last year is also an alternative, but that requires skill.

The real problem is that the first half of the year featured poor quality teams playing in front of the most eyes.

 

[Dr Tigris]

In fact this year Richmond clearly expected more pressure from other teams and have made heavy use of the long forward handball to break through congestion, and taps to advantage to avoid taking possession (and therefore avoid a tackle).

Long direct accurate kicks like GWS last year is also an alternative, but that requires skill.

The real problem is that the first half of the year featured poor quality teams playing in front of the most eyes.

Agree. It's also that teams ramped up their pressure following 2016 & 2017, but haven't worked out the other side of scoring. We built an entire system for it. And recruited players suited to that system.

Teams knew pressure could kill other teams. But they didn't know how to score or move the ball with the players they had. I'd say it's taken teams nutil about now to work out how to move the ball.

Pressure is great. But the problem with pressure on the man is that once the ball comes out into the clear you are screwed, unless you an elite group of backs. Which we do. When we get beaten teams move the ball quickly and cleanly sideways to someone that hits up a target opening up our defensive structure. Then trouble!

But that requires elite skills and a really disciplined team effort to a well structured plan.

If you don't have the skills or discipline, then going all in on pressure = wading through mud.

The other way to eat pressure is through chaotic ball and tap ons, kicking it to the grass etc. That requires constant repeat efforts and forward speed. Which we have. So when teams pressure us we get through it by simply moving the ball as quick as possible to forward space, or a one on one contest. The ball is then moving toward our goal with Rioli/Castagna/Bolton coming in hard, or to a contests that is likely to be halved or even a tap on toward goal rather than a marking attempt, which leads to fast small forwards getting more opportunities. That is, we don't try and control the ball through pure skill. We try and control how it moves any way possible. So our game style is to accentuate the puck. But tilt the playing surface towards us when it comes to luck. Contests are lucky, bouncing ball is lucky, crumbing is lucky. But when you have speedsters coming in toward goal they will tend to get there first and face the right direction. So luck will tend to go our way. And given we are the repeat sprint champions of the AFL we just get 'luckier' all day.

So another post in this thread talked of how the Hawks took luck as is, and tried to improve what they could control. We've used the same logic but gone another route. We accentuate the luck, but use a loaded deck to play poker with other teams. Sometimes we'll be unlucky. But on average we will win.

 

[Dr Tigris]

Agree. It's also that teams ramped up their pressure following 2016 & 2017, but haven't worked out the other side of scoring. We built an entire system for it. And recruited players suited to that system.

Teams knew pressure could kill other teams. But they didn't know how to score or move the ball with the players they had. I'd say it's taken teams nutil about now to work out how to move the ball.

Pressure is great. But the problem with pressure on the man is that once the ball comes out into the clear you are screwed, unless you an elite group of backs. Which we do. When we get beaten teams move the ball quickly and cleanly sideways to someone that hits up a target opening up our defensive structure. Then trouble!

But that requires elite skills and a really disciplined team effort to a well structured plan.

If you don't have the skills or discipline, then going all in on pressure = wading through mud.

The other way to eat pressure is through chaotic ball and tap ons, kicking it to the grass etc. That requires constant repeat efforts and forward speed. Which we have. So when teams pressure us we get through it by simply moving the ball as quick as possible to forward space, or a one on one contest. The ball is then moving toward our goal with Rioli/Castagna/Bolton coming in hard, or to a contests that is likely to be halved or even a tap on toward goal rather than a marking attempt, which leads to fast small forwards getting more opportunities. That is, we don't try and control the ball through pure skill. We try and control how it moves any way possible. So our game style is to accentuate the puck. But tilt the playing surface towards us when it comes to luck. Contests are lucky, bouncing ball is lucky, crumbing is lucky. But when you have speedsters coming in toward goal they will tend to get there first and face the right direction. So luck will tend to go our way. And given we are the repeat sprint champions of the AFL we just get 'luckier' all day.

So another post in this thread talked of how the Hawks took luck as is, and tried to improve what they could control. We've used the same logic but gone another route. We accentuate the luck, but use a loaded deck to play poker with other teams. Sometimes we'll be unlucky. But on average we will win.

And replying to my own post - the proposed new rules won't do anything to the core issue. If teams going all in on pressure is the underlying cause then zones don't change that. in fact they might drag the game down. It could lead to a disaster of players running slowly and/or dodgy free kicks going everywhere. Not hard to see how the rules could be gamed.

 

[smasha]

R1 is all you need to know about that silly 50 metre penalty rule,the umpires went to town on us with it,obviously put in to stop Richmond.

 

[MosquitoBrigade]

here's an idea....revert back to the rules from 20 years ago and leave the *ing thing alone!

Umpires should not be in charge of making the game watchable.

No one was complaining 20 years ago about the "state of the game", that only came about after years of constant rule changing and bullsh*t.

 

[Gosha]

Guys I don’t want to alarm you, but Collingwood have injuries

 

[Dr Tigris]

here's an idea....revert back to the rules from 20 years ago and leave the ruddy thing alone!

Umpires should not be in charge of making the game watchable.

No one was complaining 20 years ago about the "state of the game", that only came about after years of constant rule changing and bullsh*t.

Actually people were complaining about the state of the game back then. Probably quieter in the 90's, but people still complained. I cannot remember a time since about 1980 when people weren't complaining about the state of the game and how it used to be so much better.

 

[MosquitoBrigade]

Actually people were complaining about the state of the game back then. Probably quieter in the 90's, but people still complained. I cannot remember a time since about 1980 when people weren't complaining about the state of the game and how it used to be so much better.

maybe it's just that people are becoming bigger whingers lol

 

[Defibrillate]

maybe it's just that people are becoming bigger whingers lol

That’s probably correct.

1. Narcissism on the rise - “I must get what I want and if I don’t I’ll yell from the highest rooftop”.

2. Social media has given everyone a megaphone to disseminate their dissatisfaction - and boy do they use it.

3. The AFL is now heavily market driven selling a “product” - so focus groups, fan satisfaction surveys etc come in to play.

4. The ridiculous amount of money paid for the tv rights means that the AFL is beholden to advertising interests who think they can mandate what the product should be (to show more ads obviously).

5. We’ve had a series of administrators who seem to think they have to leave a “legacy” - interstate teams, growth of the game, better product etc etc meaning they are frightened of any negative opinion in case it tarnishes that legacy - and so they react to criticism. Good steady stewardship is what is required more often than not.

6. The number of AFL accredited journalists has increased multiple fold over the last 20 years and there is only so much s**t you can write about so, heh, let’s say the game is screwed to make a point of difference.

I could go on but I’ve run out of energy....

 

[Woody Woodman]

Yes, but it's funny because they are going to work more for us than against.

If 50-100 (how many coaches are there) of the best football minds haven't found a way to beat us yet, how could the idiots at AFL house?

There has to be an oxymoron in there somewhere.

 

[Woody Woodman]

That’s probably correct.

1. Narcissism on the rise - “I must get what I want and if I don’t I’ll yell from the highest rooftop”.

2. Social media has given everyone a megaphone to disseminate their dissatisfaction - and boy do they use it.

3. The AFL is now heavily market driven selling a “product” - so focus groups, fan satisfaction surveys etc come in to play.

4. The ridiculous amount of money paid for the tv rights means that the AFL is beholden to advertising interests who think they can mandate what the product should be (to show more ads obviously).

5. We’ve had a series of administrators who seem to think they have to leave a “legacy” - interstate teams, growth of the game, better product etc etc meaning they are frightened of any negative opinion in case it tarnishes that legacy - and so they react to criticism. Good steady stewardship is what is required more often than not.

6. The number of AFL accredited journalists has increased multiple fold over the last 20 years and there is only so much s**t you can write about so, heh, let’s say the game is screwed to make a point of difference.

I could go on but I’ve run out of energy....

Journalists are meant to report the news but nowadays they take it upon themselves to create "news". AFL is a high speed sport played by fallible and emotional creatures which makes it quite unpredictable. It's this unpredictability that keeps fans believing during the leanest of times and generates those insightful (and inciteful) Monday morning discussions.