EDFL Premier Div 2020

[the horse whisper]

there are always good young gems playing local footy that never grace the AFL. For whatever reason they aren’t in the system, if it’s by choice fair enough, but if they are never considered that’s why we have these experiments with players that just aren’t up to it, nor have that innate sense of the game having grown up with a footy in hand.

Clubs do that to try and grow there membership internationally. Cox wouldn’t get a kick in the EDFL. It would be too tough for him. The bloke is 211cms and can’t mark above his head. The only good thing is Collingwood play with 21 every time he plays.

 

[Cheapseat]

Clubs do that to try and grow there membership internationally. Cox wouldn’t get a kick in the EDFL. It would be too tough for him. The bloke is 211cms and can’t mark above his head. The only good thing is Collingwood play with 21 every time he plays.

Yeah it makes you wonder you look at Andrew Browne and how dominant he was in the EDFL his game awareness, ground positioning and ability to clunk contested marks yet he only managed 12 AFL games.

Every team that played Keilor when he was there would have a game plan to try and not kick it to Browne down the line. Many a coach lost a lot of hair watching his team keep kicking it to Browne.

Also he was physically smashed into and targeted every game with teams trying to knee him in the spleen or lower back to try and stop his influence.

He was McGuanes major weapon because he would force opposing teams to move the ball to the inside corridor too early by sitting Browne down the line and Keilor would pray on corridor turnovers and punish opp teams. Keilors goals from turnovers were the highest in the league.

McGuane would do the opposite and hug the boundary line and reduce the danger of turnover damage and only come inside at the last minute to Galea.

Browne was Keilors most influential player in his time there IMO.

I think the answer as to why Cox gets a better shot than Browne and others like him is AFL recruiting is driven by special athletic abilities these days and they feel like they can teach the skills and game sense later.

See here what Cox told a US reporter about being tested for AFL:

There were 25 or 30 people at the combine. It was so random. There was this foreign object that looked like a rugby ball but we’d hardly even seen one of them. Everyone was laughing and sharing this funny experience of being at this place. Most of it wasn’t doing skills and stuff, because we didn’t have any!

They didn’t expect you to be able to hit a kick 20 metres ahead of you; they were happy if you could just get it close. They were more testing your athletic abilities. I did really well in the 3 kilometre time trial and the jump test and a few other things.

Browne probably lacked a bit in that area so that might be the clue. Not saying I agree but it’s the reason.

Here are some positive memories I think you will find he can clunk them over head maybe not as often as you would like though:

 

[Ogdor]

Limit numbers of junior teams per club? That way the new comers go to the smaller clubs and help build numbers that way?

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1) can the clubs be trusted to adhere to the cap?
Sadly no Orbit we all know that it is going to be very unlikely that clubs are going to be able to convince their top-end talent to play for an average of $225 per game to fit into the $100K cap. We all know of players over the years who were and are on $1k (heaps of blokes), $1,500 (top 5 % or 10 blokes in premier) $2,000 (2-3 blokes) very hard to see those guys accepting 5 to 10 times less a game. Some may bail on local footy and move on in their life, some may cop it and a lot will make their way to clubs willing to work around it.

2) can the cap be policed
NO/YES it is very difficult if the cash never goes into the club's bank account and gets given to a player in cash it's nearly impossible end of story, BUT your side note of what will they do with the extra $150 to $200K will be the clue for the AFL auditors to at least make it difficult because they can just cross-reference the number of registered juniors with the amount publically charged for regos etc.. and with some basic accounting forensics ask to see the leftover cash and it will be very hard for a club to manipulate that, they might try and record less cash takings for bar and functions but the junior regos alone in the big clubs who have lots of kids and charge a lot will still mathematically mean they should be having profits accruing in their bank accounts and if not they will need to show where the money went.

3) what penalties would act as a deterrent?
The main ones would be formal office holders of footy clubs to be legally exposed e.g someone like Bruce Kent or Larkin (not an officeholder now) wouldn't be comfortable being exposed to the legal risk and the business career implications that it would cause. Don't know what the ins and outs of the legals are on that and whether anything would be enforceable?


4) should the coach be included in the cap?
In my view no, Keilor, Abers, Greenvale, Strathmore deserve to have some advantage for being well run clubs so they should be able to spend their money on something that gives their members the joy of winning more, Keilor get an advantage by having Mick McGuane, Greenvale had an elite ex AFL player in Chapman and they deserve that. But my call out is the EDFL will need points handicaps to help deal with 60% of all kids in the elite systems TAC, VFL and AFL coming from 2 EDFL clubs Abers & Keilor that will rip the comp apart in coming years. e.g 5 ex elites playing mean 5 points to Abers and 25 points to a club recruiting similar talent, in the end, you won't be able to field a side under the points cap to win like for like cattle against those two clubs.

Do we think the AFL is reducing salary caps for local comps benefit and Is it consistent with its demonstrated comittment to suburban and country footy?. Or, could it be an attempt to stop mass exodus and recruitment of players on the cusp AFL (VFL) careers going/staying to local comps to play for a jumper with the number $$.

 

[towball]

Limit numbers of junior teams per club? That way the new comers go to the smaller clubs and help build numbers that way?

On SM-G960F using BigFooty.com mobile app

This wouldn't work because there is poor coaching and poor people at some of those clubs without. Not to mention the smoking drinking and swearing around juniors. The difference in the more professional clubs verses the average ran clubs will simply mean more kids don't play.
The answer is a cap on junior fees so clubs can't use fees to bankroll senior teams.

 

[Cheapseat]

Do we think the AFL is reducing salary caps for local comps benefit and Is it consistent with its demonstrated comittment to suburban and country footy?. Or, could it be an attempt to stop mass exodus and recruitment of players on the cusp AFL (VFL) careers going/staying to local comps to play for a jumper with the number $$.

Great point there have been many players in recent times where the VFL club was trying to recruit ex AFL players and elite VFL players but lost out to local footy clubs.

Local footy clubs paid more and didn’t require the 3 nights training and the ex AFL bloke would say they were sick of having to compete against the AFL listed blokes who were fit out of their brain and could train full time while they had to work full time.

In recent years at least 50 blokes would walk into all the unaffiliated VFL clubs and some would even walk into AFL aligned teams.

Galea
Browne
Joyce
Ryan Allan
Blackwell
Cubillo
Lynch
Davis
Reimers
Cachia
Warren
Ross
Foster
Watson
Hardingham
Hansen
Urquardt
Martinello
Iacobucci
Doering
Matt Little
Jarrad
Adam Maric
Eric Kuret
Fort Caruso
Smith
Brewer
Denis Bicer
Thompson
Deluca
Jorgensen (a while back but elite)
Nick Lower
Paxman
Scott Lucas
Cameron Wood
Rose
Kite
Chris Johnson
Hayden Skipworth
Dean Rioli
Michael OBrien
Ty Zantuck
Barry Brooks
Holland


To name a few...

The AFL lifted the VFL salary cap to $400k last year (corrected after further research after prompting by Break the drought)* $380K and after a number of years of being lifted from $187K in 2007 to $500K in 2017 due to lobbying from the VFL to the AFL to protect VFL clubs from uncapped local clubs taking their talent BUT from 2017 it has been reduced back to $380k in 2020 and aiming for $350k by 2022) for that exact reason they want to keep that talent for longer.

If the EDFL clubs don’t cheat the level of competition and talent will fall away dramatically.

 

[Cheapseat]

This wouldn't work because there is poor coaching and poor people at some of those clubs without. Not to mention the smoking drinking and swearing around juniors. The difference in the more professional clubs verses the average ran clubs will simply mean more kids don't play.
The answer is a cap on junior fees so clubs can't use fees to bankroll senior teams.

Agree but it’s the points not the money as there is a ‘salary cap’ so extra money can’t help you get better cattle it’s the 5 blokes that came back to Abers for 1 point and for a club that doesn’t have elites coming back they need 25 points to compete like for like and there is only 47 to play with so you have 22 points to field the other 17 blokes it doesn’t work.

 

[Break the drought]

Great point there have been many players in recent times where the VFL club was trying to recruit ex AFL players and elite VFL players but lost out to local footy clubs.

Local footy clubs paid more and didn’t require the 3 nights training and the ex AFL bloke would say they were sick of having to compete against the AFL listed blokes who were fit out of their brain and could train full time while they had to work full time.

In recent years at least 50 blokes would walk into all the unaffiliated VFL clubs and some would even walk into AFL aligned teams.

Galea
Browne
Ryan Allan
Blackwell
Davis
Reimers
Cachia
Ben Warren
Ben Ross
Luke Foster
Hardingham
Hansen
Urquardt
Martinello
Iacobucci
Jarrad
Adam Maric
Eric Kuret
Denis Bicer
Thompson
Deluca
Jorgensen (a while back but elite)
Nick Lower
Paxman
Cameron Wood

To name a few...

The AFL lifted the VFL salary cap to $400k last year for that exact reason they want to keep that talent for longer.

If the EDFL clubs don’t cheat the level of competition and talent will fall away dramatically.

Most of those blokes you mentioned above played VFL with varied degrees of success or some didn't cut it - as far as you saying that the VFL Salary Cap has been lifted in recent years, you are 100% incorrect as it has been reduced annually over the last couple of years. I do enjoy a lot of your comments but when what you say is totally incorrect, I felt it had to be corrected.

 

[Cheapseat]

Most of those blokes you mentioned above played VFL with varied degrees of success or some didn't cut it - as far as you saying that the VFL Salary Cap has been lifted in recent years, you are 100% incorrect as it has been reduced annually over the last couple of years. I do enjoy a lot of your comments but when what you say is totally incorrect, I felt it had to be corrected.

Fair call it's all opinion-based re the players ability to play VFL.

But just for clarification which of those blokes in their prime when they were coming out of the systems either VFL/SANFL/WAFL would not have made the best 22 of an unaffiliated VFL team today? Or Break which of the blokes I stated struggled in the VFL/WAFL/SANFL? for example even one of the lesser light names I mentioned like Eric Kuret still captained Coburg, not a strong team and unaffiliated when he did but he didn't struggle at VFL level.

Also, I stated some would have walked into AFL affiliated teams in their prime or the moment they left for local? So your saying Galea who won the VFL goalkicking in recent years before he left, or Ben Warren who did the same as did Patrick Rose (he left the year after winning a VFL premiership and won the comp goal kicking that year and kicked 5 in the GF, Galea kicked 6), or Martinello/Ross/Schroder who won Liston's and Blackwell who won Sandover's, Hardingham was the stand-in Captain for Essendon VFL when he left, Jacob Thompson Essendon’s longest serving VFL player with the forward first joining the Bendigo Bombers back in 2010, Iacobucci was a VFL representative team in 2007, 2008 and 2010 Iacobucci was made club captain of the Bullants, Watson named in WAFL state squad the year before he left, Cachia finished in the top five for the Magarey Medal in 2012 at Norwood, Brewer VFL team of the year and Port premiership player, Nick Lower was the Captain of the Bulldogs VFL team and ranked the number 2 best player in the SANFL in 2011, Luke Jarrad 200 game legend at West Torrens SANFL when they left for local, Andrew Browne left AFL direct to Keilor then after two years with Keilor Essendon took another look at him with a couple of VFL games, Paxman & Lucas left after being delisted by Port & Essendon straight to local, Matt Little 258 goals in the VFL and VFL comp goal kicking, Doering won 3 VFL best and fairests awards in 4 years of VFL footy, Holland went straight to Marby after being delisted by Collingwood and your saying they couldn't have been in the best 22 of affiliated VFL clubs.?

There is at least 20 blokes in this batch of elites.

Fort Caruso (42), Todd Grima (21), Nick Lower (2) Luke Jarrad (19) were rated in the top 50 SANFL players before they left for local.

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Break, based on the above facts I think your statement is way off the mark. Most of those blokes you mentioned above played VFL with varied degrees of success or some didn't cut it approximately half of the list I posted not only played VFL/SANFL/WAFL but were elite at that level.

Sadly Break these blokes are unlikely to filter back to local or not as early.

But I'm not an expert on the VFL salary cap so stand to be corrected Break it looks like the VFL salary cap was $380K for 2020 so a little less than the $400K I stated and the reason local footy got a salary cap at all was because of VFL pressure on the AFL see below public record:

Victorian Football League - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

.

The VFL is classed as a semi-professional competition. In 2007 the league had a salary cap of $185,000 excluding service payments. There are a significantly higher number of AFL reserves due to affiliations with Victorian clubs, but player payments for these appearances is apparently not included in the VFL's salary cap. Following the 2013 VFL season, it was revealed that several clubs were lobbying VFL executives to increase the salary cap in a bid to keep high-level players who had relieved themselves of participating in the league to accept more attractive financial offers in local football competitions, where such caps are far less regulated.


Break your correct on deeper research it looks like they are coming down too (by $30K):
Stand-alone clubs can sign 40 players next year, down from 45 in 2019, as well as six over-age players from the NAB League.

By 2021 primary lists will be cut to 38 and by 2022 to 36.

The salary cap will also be reduced from $380,000 next year to $350,000 in 2022.

Within two years clubs will be required to pay at least 90 per cent of the payment ceiling.

The cap for AFL and AFL-aligned clubs will be $150,000 by 2022.

“These measures have been put in place to not only promote consistency across State League competitions but also competitive balance within,’’ a document sent to VFL clubs from the AFL this week stated.


Break the point is the AFL on behalf of the VFL will be keen to maintain the spread/difference between VFL and local comps so in 2021 it will be $350K v $100K 350% more salary cap to spend on players. This difference will be massive in what a club could pay a player who would otherwise leave the VFL for local so more talent will stay in the VFL longer if that player is driven by money.

The other beneficiary could be the VAFA because if they are going to get so little in an elite local comp like the EFL or EDFL why not go to a VAFA club and try and network and see if you can angle a job or connections.

The champion Eastern league goalkicker has joined the VAFA Premier club for this season and 2021.

Eddy, 30, has spent the past two years with Vermont, playing in premiership sides and having returns of 74 and 66 goals.

He won the league medal last year.

The long-kicking right-footer played three AFL games for Port Adelaide in 2017, an extension of his outstanding performances with South Adelaide and Port Adelaide in the SANFL.

He topped the league goalkicking twice.


Break I corrected my above post with the below:
The AFL lifted the VFL salary cap to $400k last year (corrected after further research after prompting by Break the drought)* $380K and after a number of years of being lifted from $187K in 2007 to $500K in 2017 due to lobbying from the VFL to the AFL to protect VFL clubs from uncapped local clubs taking their talent BUT from 2017 it has been reduced back to $380k in 2020 and aiming for $350k by 2022) for that exact reason they want to keep that talent for longer.

 

[Cheapseat]

Surely it’s time to pull the pin on junior EDFL footy now.

Victoria has reported 108 new cases of coronavirus in the state today.

Two more post codes and 9 high rise public housing blocks locked down as of now.

I just don’t understand why we are playing with fire on this in society.

For anyone that thinks this isn’t serious and starting to effect younger people if community transmissions get out of control just watch the CNN video below.

Whats the risk reward equation here?

For the risk watch this recent CNN video about what’s happening in Texas right now and for the reward of pushing ahead with a part junior season I would love someone to make a case for enough reward that reasonably justifies the risk?



This is so silly. Let’s just prioritise our work income and family’s health until we get on top of this.

This is even more scary approx 10,000 people have refused testing lots in the north west.

Vic Heath Minister:
“It is concerning that the reports that I have received are that some people believe that coronavirus is a conspiracy or that it won’t impact on them.”

One such conspiracy theory claims nasal swabs are being used to implant microchips.

 

[RednWhite]

So Ian Kite will remain as CEO after doing a stellar job as interim?

God help us.

 

[RednWhite]

Limit numbers of junior teams per club? That way the new comers go to the smaller clubs and help build numbers that way?

On SM-G960F using BigFooty.com mobile app

That has been suggested so many times before

 

[RednWhite]

Yes that’s probably the case. But it’s going to be uniformed over all metro leagues. So some other clubs in metro might not be able to afford 100k. The best thing AFL Victoria will do is have an even salary cap over metro football. 100k is enough that way playayers will either play for the club or they won’t. Football shouldn’t be seen as an income for players. It’s used to form mateship and being part of a small club communities where u find life long friends.
too many players use it to make as much money as they can and don’t care about the club and the people at the club who love their football club.
those players will either have to change their attitude.

That is the romantic side of football. Players play for dollars if they can make it. Rugby league clubs have been paying under 18’s since the 1970’s at least.

 

[Survey]

I understand your point and at 1 time I did support this but difficult to force a kid or parent to go to a particular club. I don’t like the corruption that goes on with the better kids at lower clubs getting calls from bigger clubs. I understand it if they go on there own accord but calling kids is not good.

Never going to stop Keilor contacting kids … Met a 17yo at a social function who played at Tulla u/18 last year who told me he has "signed on" at Keilor. When I asked him what he meant, he told me Keilor offered him a contract and he signed it!

 

[Survey]

Never going to stop Keilor contacting kids … Met a 17yo at a social function who played at Tulla u/18 last year who told me he has "signed on" at Keilor. When I asked him what he meant, he told me Keilor offered him a contract and he signed it!

And I will add , this kid will at best be making up the numbers in the 18's.

 

[torpfrom50]

And I will add , this kid will at best be making up the numbers in the 18's.

Its a joke been doing it for years

 

[Cheapseat]

Its a joke been doing it for years

Gday Torp,

Yeah agree but unless the EDFL creates a new way to manage the allowable points system then this will be the new arms race between clubs.

Ideas:

• Cap amount of junior teams at each club would work but parents wouldn't like it, limits choice, more kids live in some suburbs and want to play close to home etc..
• Handicap the point system like some leagues have e.g team coming up from Div 1 get extra points, or bottom two teams get extra points, grand finalists get less points next year. All very unlikely as this would cause lots of debates and arguments about what would be 'fair' or help with equalisation.
• A club only gets two local elite players per 22 at 1 point if they have more they have to be listed at market rate points 6/5 points per player. They still get an advantage but not so much as to make it impossible for oppo teams to field a similar team on talent.

Not sure on the best way but something needs to be done otherwise it will make this problem of targeting the best kids or trying to create the biggest farms of talent rather than building a local footy club from kids who live in the area then this practice will continue and in fact get worse.



Ways you can play with the points system:

8. Total Team Points

8.1. Metropolitan Leagues and Region Commissions will undertake their own process of Total Team Points allocations and will be responsible for determining Total Team Points for their affiliate Senior Competitions and Clubs. As stated under clause 3, Total Team Points should only exceed 47 points and for legitimate circumstances necessary to achieve the evenness and equalisations objectives of this PPS Policy. Any alterations to a Community Club’s Total Team Points cap for any other reason must be prior approved by the CCSP subcommittee.

8.2. In order to determine team variances to a Senior Competitions Total Team Points’ cap, Metropolitan Leagues and Region Commissions should adopt the following guiding principles regarding the additional allocation or reduction of Total Team Points to a Community Club:

8.2.1. Additional total team points may be allocated to a Community Club which is located in a region with a low population base.

8.2.2. Additional total team points may be allocated if a Community Club did not qualify for finals in previous seasons or has been promoted from previous seasons.

8.2.3. Reduction of total team points for multiple premierships and sustained success over previous seasons.

8.2.4. Additional total team points may be allocated if a Community Club endures significant hardship, lack of success, is coming out of recess, or is a recently merged or restructured entity.

8.2.5. Additional total team points may be allocated where a Community Club has no U18 or U19 or younger underage sides and is not capable of developing a junior program due to reasons outside of its control, or if a Community Club is aligned with a university and the team is based around players coming and going over a 3-4 year period.

8.3. For each match, a Club must ensure that the Total Team Points allocation is calculated based on the maximum number of players allowed to participate in a match for that Competition and this should be consistent for each match within a Season, within each Competition. For example, if the maximum number of players on match days for the Competition is 22 players, a Club cannot submit a team list of 21 players to meet the Total Team Points cap. For the avoidance of doubt, a Club must list the maximum number of players allowed on its team sheet in calculating its Total Team Points. For exceptional circumstances (i.e. not having enough players to field a full Senior Team) the matter should be referred back to the Metropolitan League or Region Commission for review and direction.

https://aflvic.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Player-Points-System-Policy-2019-season-final.pdf

 

[Cheapseat]

God help us.

I don't know Kyte or have any insights to what he is like as an operator or about the Calder Cannons walkout rumours BUT what I would say is I wouldn't have envied his job in recent times.

It was an unprecedented time in local football history with no playbooks to follow, he came into this crisis without strong long term relationships with the various stakeholders to lean on and it wouldn't have been easy having very strong personalities like Kent, Larkin (he was involved Horse), McGuane was speaking with Kyte often and then he had the majority of clubs pulling in the other direction. It would have been and is a real vipers nest where various clubs, officials, executive and board members don't trust each other with lots of leaks from various sources.

I am sure he went home many nights feeling like whatever choice he made he couldn't win.

The other call out is I think in this organisation being the EDFL the operational dynamics were different from the typical business where the CEO/Executive make the decisions and the Board carrys out more of a governance and high-level strategic role, because Kyte was so new my understanding was Kyte was not really empowered or acing like the decision-maker it was non-official office holders Bruce Kent and the Chairman Shinners etc.. with lots of experience making or at least influencing the decisions and the Board was making decisions/voting on things an executive usually would do on their own.

So in some ways, he was a straw man.

 

[torpfrom50]

God help us.

Is this confirmed?

 

[Cheapseat]

“From a football club perspective, we’re in a good financial position, so we’re not carrying any expense from 2019 to 2020,” Hill said.

“We’re in a good position to deal with any possible loss that comes with no senior revenue.

“If the junior space doesn’t get up as well, that will equally hurt because we’ll be in a position where we will refund all that money to the members who have paid.

“I expect most clubs will face some form of financial challenge and we’ll just be trying to ideally break even from last year to this year.

“Luckily, we don’t have the worry of carrying (debt) into 2021 because our past models have kept us financially sound.”

That's why Juniors are not cancelled yet, the same scenario for Abers etc.. Hill is putting the best spin on this as possible about their financial position and that's what the rumoured email from Larkin is talking about regards the Abers financial pain and their risk to solvency discussed.


The above statements don't make sense if you don't have any debt from 2019/2020 then refunding junior rego fees paid for 2020 wouldn't cause any financial challenge or struggles to breakeven as there literally are no costs now, no EDFL fees, no council, no player payments etc.. etc.. the struggle for Keilor must be that they have spent some of it, fullstop.

 

[torpfrom50]

Surely it’s time to pull the pin on junior EDFL footy now.

Victoria has reported 108 new cases of coronavirus in the state today.

Two more post codes and 9 high rise public housing blocks locked down as of now.

I just don’t understand why we are playing with fire on this in society.

For anyone that thinks this isn’t serious and starting to effect younger people if community transmissions get out of control just watch the CNN video below.

Whats the risk reward equation here?

For the risk watch this recent CNN video about what’s happening in Texas right now and for the reward of pushing ahead with a part junior season I would love someone to make a case for enough reward that reasonably justifies the risk?



This is so silly. Let’s just prioritise our work income and family’s health until we get on top of this.

This is even more scary approx 10,000 people have refused testing lots in the north west.

Vic Heath Minister:
“It is concerning that the reports that I have received are that some people believe that coronavirus is a conspiracy or that it won’t impact on them.”

One such conspiracy theory claims nasal swabs are being used to implant microchips.

Hey Cheap surely the juniors have been scrapped now?

 

[Cheapseat]

Hey Cheap surely the juniors have been scrapped now?

No mate not yet

 

[torpfrom50]

No mate not yet

Come on is had to be a one in all in, Seniors cancelled now Juniors MUST be cancelled
This wreaks of a financial decsion not a welfare decsion now surely

 

[Survey]

This wouldn't work because there is poor coaching and poor people at some of those clubs without. Not to mention the smoking drinking and swearing around juniors. The difference in the more professional clubs verses the average ran clubs will simply mean more kids don't play.
The answer is a cap on junior fees so clubs can't use fees to bankroll senior teams.

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[RDFL blokey]

Come on is had to be a one in all in, Seniors cancelled now Juniors MUST be cancelled
This wreaks of a financial decsion not a welfare decsion now surely

The longer they hang on canning the juniors the easier it’ll be to stiff parents for refunds with a bit “we provided training”

 

[torpfrom50]

The longer they hang on canning the juniors the easier it’ll be to stiff parents for refunds with a bit “we provided training”

Surely not!