Who's closer to their next premiership: Carlton or Freo?

[OnceWeWereKings]

The obvious problem that springs to mind is you referred to Hayden Young as a midfielder. He's not; he's a rebound defender with a brilliant long-range kick and is a very good contested mark. This sort of stuff:



Although I do get the confusion since Ross also added Young onto the list for some reason.

Also worth noting that Walters has been used as both a small forward and midfielder. The reason his stats don't look great for either is probably a combination of that and a period of down form after a injury. Ideally I think he returns to being a small forward; with Fyfe, Mundy, Brayshaw, Cerra and Serong in the middle (Tucker returning from injury too) he's more useful up there.

On individual players Setterfield, Brayshaw and Cerra being similar is absurd. Obvious comparison is coaches votes; there were about 3 games that Brayshaw topped it for Freo and another where Cerra did, whereas I don't think Setterfield got any. Brayshaw and Cerra have been far more integral to Freo than Setterfield.

With your overall comparison Fyfe, Mundy, Brayshaw, Cerra and Serong all predominately played in the midfield. Out of the group you named from my understanding it was really Cripps, Murphy and Curnow who were relied on in the centre, with Walsh on the outside. Kennedy, Stocker and Dow didn't really play. Two of those Carlton players are really past their best, and it's hard to see how that midfield improves unless some of your younger players can take that step up, rather than being covered for with some of your older midfielders.

I'm interested in seeing how both teams develop, but I think to compare Freo and Carlton's midfields in the future you need to bring up the ages of the players and question when and how Curnow and Murphy get the boot.

Think you're taking it the wrong way here PT. You've responded and provided comparison with negative context.

Why would coaches votes be the obvious comparison when comparing three young on-ballers playing for two different teams?

Why would a statistical comparison between three young on-ballers be an absurd way to compare?.

Heading in to the season, if you had any understanding of Carltons weaknesses, the need provide inside support to Cripps sat at the top of the list. A role Setterfield began to establish himself in this year.

Providing support to a teams best player whom has carried the team in this capacity for the past few years (and was below his best this year) strikes me as the very definition of integral in context to Carlton's needs?

To imply one teams up and coming young players as more "integral" to that particular team than the other seems a little naff to me.

And you're sleeping on Setterfield if you think his season didn't stack-up to that of Cerra & Brayshaw. Have a bit more of an in-depth look.

Our mids can get it and clear it as well as any, the stats support this, our spread and disposal into the forward 50 is the glaring weakness and the area we need to address.

I've conceded a number of points you raise. Murphy is shot, has been for a while, a liability in the middle. Curnow whilst getting on, has at least a couple more years left due to his fitness levels, need to find a class two-way running replacement in our younger group.
Walsh is an on-baller regardless of where he played this year. I believe its a testament to his ability that he could still have the impact he did whilst playing wider. Think it was a great move to protect him from the bash & crash in his second year.
I also outlined the other requirements needed for the Carlton mid group to move forward next year, continued development of the youngsters & the recruitment of some class support. potentially Williams & another one or two.

For clarity, the context of my posts isn't / wasn't a one is better than the other slag off.

 

[queensberryrules]

Freo closer without a doubt. And closer since Ross left.

 

[Purple_Turtle]

Why would coaches votes be the obvious comparison when comparing three young on-ballers playing for two different teams?

Why would a statistical comparison between three young on-ballers be an absurd way to compare?.

I didn't say the statistical comparison was an absurd way to compare. I said it was absurd to say those 3 players are similar when statistically Cerra and Brayshaw have had much better years.

Coaches votes are a decent shorthand for which players are seen to be influential in a side winning.

 

[Piggy Smalls]

If the umps weren’t corrupt and/or incompetent we would have finished two games ahead of them on the ladder which is a fair reflection of where the teams are at.

 

[OnceWeWereKings]

I didn't say the statistical comparison was an absurd way to compare. I said it was absurd to say those 3 players are similar when statistically Cerra and Brayshaw have had much better years.

Coaches votes are a decent shorthand for which players are seen to be influential in a side winning.

Think you need to check the stats again then.....

 

[Richo83]

Its definitely the case and say that for both teams, the hard part starts now.

Anyone can bottom out for a few years and put together a nice solid bunch of young blokes, slap them on the park with some veteran stars, and make it to mid table, then claim they are the next big thing.

It’s what happens next that matters. Both teams need to continue to add good players and role players, keep their players healthy, develop their young players, and implement a game plan that works. In other words, both are ‘real’ footy clubs rather than rebuilding. From now, we are playing the same game as Richmond, Geelong, Collingwood, West Coast, etc - adding pieces with later draft picks, managing salary caps, getting the balance right between senior players in decline and developing players on the rise, etc. except those other teams have been doing it longer while we were using top 3 draft picks and ‘playing the kids’.

I found Ross Lyon’s comments utterly bewildering - to be honest, while you can debate it all you like, to say Freo are clearly ahead is flat out wrong. But then again, he clearly didn’t pay much attention to Carlton this year And his ignorance showed - the big test of that is anyone who says Murphy is an important part of the midfield (he played quarters 1-3 forward this year, then played midfield for parts of the last quarter in a pinch hitting role.). But also - people can be forgiven for not watching Carlton - why would you when there are plenty of better teams and matches non stop every day.

He's biased, and isn't the best one to judge. Then again, I do get why people like Fremantle. Cerra, Brayshaw, Serong, Young and Henry are some pretty good draft picks which they have to build around. But this game is at half time and no-one knows who wins. Carlton need more output out of SPS, Dow, Curnow and O'Brien and they need them to supplement Cripps and Walsh who are a great duo.

 

[btdg]

He's biased, and isn't the best one to judge. Then again, I do get why people like Fremantle. Cerra, Brayshaw, Serong, Young and Henry are some pretty good draft picks which they have to build around. But this game is at half time and no-one knows who wins. Carlton need more output out of SPS, Dow, Curnow and O'Brien and they need them to supplement Cripps and Walsh who are a great duo.

I just fin that odd though. Seems strange for a guy who was sacked by a club, and is now in a public position, to be so... one-eyed, but in an ignorant way? His dismissive 'Carlton only have Cripps and Murphy' in the midfield was just very 2018 as a viewpoint.

I'm actually struggling to see why people like Freo more, to be honest. Maybe it's a lack of exposure but there seems a lot of 'Cerra, Brayshaw, Serong, Young and Henry are some pretty good draft picks'. Now that's fine, but it includes two blokes who have played 8 fairly unremarkable games between them total, and generalyl I think Freo are getting a very optimistic projection.

On the Carlton side, there's a lot of 'well, Cripps, Walsh, Weitering, McKay, and Docherty is a good starting point... but you need more out of X and Y, and Z and Murphy is going to retire soon, and...". I honestly think if you put the two teams side by side, they're extremely similar in composition, but Carlton cop scrutiny due to overexposure and Freo are in the 'gee, I wish Freo were good... and I like the sounds of that Ryan guy".

Really, there's a heap of questions about both teams. As you say, it's half-time - or not even. The game only really starts once you hit the point these teams are at now, and I think that's where a lot of footy attention goes wrong...

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

If the umps weren’t corrupt and/or incompetent we would have finished two games ahead of them on the ladder which is a fair reflection of where the teams are at.

If Freo can iron out that mental weakness they’ll be in a good position to challenge.

 

[Coaster2012]

Flip a coin tbh. Probably Carlton based on the fact they don't have to travel for the GF. Freo could have an insane midfield in the next few years though.

 

[La Dispute]

You can also add in Kemp to our Round 1 team for next year.

Are there any obvious players who might join Freo in the off-season? We've signed Williams and targeting a couple of other mid-aged players to hopefully add to the side.

Charlie Curnow is another big in for next season.

 

[Royals]

Frankston

 

[Piggy Smalls]

You can also add in Kemp to our Round 1 team for next year.

Are there any obvious players who might join Freo in the off-season? We've signed Williams and targeting a couple of other mid-aged players to hopefully add to the side.

Charlie Curnow is another big in for next season.

Alex Pearce, Joel Hamling, Griffin Logue, Darcy Tucker, Hayden Young, Sam Sturt will all be handy inclusions

 

[Piggy Smalls]

Oh and I heard Cripps will be in purple in 2022 so he will be handy too

 

[FairKouta]

Oh and I heard Cripps will be in purple in 2022 so he will be handy too

Huge if true. Tbh our board has been waiting for fyfe since Sos took over.

 

[Franc de Borges]

These things always skewed toward whichever team is perceived to have finished the season in better form. Fremantle didn't even finish that brilliantly, and their biggest scalps for the year finished 6th and 8th. They also suffered several 5-6 goal losses throughout the year and didn't get close to the better sides.

They seemed to get some media love after losing to Carlton, yet their form line from there was three wins over Sydney, Melbourne and North, and three big losses to GWS, Richmond and Western Bulldogs.

None of this is to suggest that Carlton is any better, but it's ridiculous the way these things get spun.

 

[Piggy Smalls]

Huge if true. Tbh our board has been waiting for fyfe since Sos took over.

I wish it were true. I just made it up

If he did want to come home I reckon we’d be keen though

 

[RudyBlue]

I wish it were true. I just made it up

If he did want to come home I reckon we’d be keen though

Really? You reckon you’d be keen?

 

[Piggy Smalls]

Really? You reckon you’d be keen?

He’s a poor man’s Fyfe but we’d find a spot for him

 

[RudyBlue]

He’s a poor man’s Fyfe but we’d find a spot for him

Fyfe is a marvel

 

[Piggy Smalls]

Fyfe is a marvel

He’s had a criminally underrated season. Such a dominant force in the contest.
Cripps goes alright in that regard too.

 

[Joao]

Given the rises seemingly out of nowhere in the last decade I don't know how anybody thinks they can tell.

 

[WilloTree]

If Freo can iron out that mental weakness they’ll be in a good position to challenge.

"I don't think they're as hard and tough as Fremantle."

Not sure that comment is screaming 'mental weakness', but meh, I've got a sneaking suspicion your post isn't entirely serious.

 

[Spanish_Fly]

Freo easily.

Carlton will do well to just maintain their position over the next 2 years. probably 7 of their best 10 players will be gone either end of this year or next, means they will need guys like Fisher, SPP, Setterfield etc to step up into key roles and guys who have hardly played, Dow, Philp, Stocker etc will need to step up into the roles the second stringers were playing.

Freo have already moved their younger guys this year into key roles, Brayshaw, Cerra, Taberner, Ryan and Serong played pivitol roles, they are much further along the developement path, this should be pretty clear when you look at the average age and games experience of the 2 teams, Carlton putting out one of the oldest teams each week and Freo one of the youngest.

 

[FairKouta]

Freo easily.

Carlton will do well to just maintain their position over the next 2 years. probably 7 of their best 10 players will be gone either end of this year or next, means they will need guys like Fisher, SPP, Setterfield etc to step up into key roles and guys who have hardly played, Dow, Philp, Stocker etc will need to step up into the roles the second stringers were playing.

Freo have already moved their younger guys this year into key roles, Brayshaw, Cerra, Taberner, Ryan and Serong played pivitol roles, they are much further along the developement path, this should be pretty clear when you look at the average age and games experience of the 2 teams, Carlton putting out one of the oldest teams each week and Freo one of the youngest.

Who are 7 of our 10 best players that are leaving? Go away you have no idea

 

[MrWoollie]

I honestly think if you put the two teams side by side, they're extremely similar in composition, but Carlton cop scrutiny due to overexposure and Freo are in the 'gee, I wish Freo were good... and I like the sounds of that Ryan guy".

Really, there's a heap of questions about both teams. As you say, it's half-time - or not even. The game only really starts once you hit the point these teams are at now, and I think that's where a lot of footy attention goes wrong...

I think for Carlton it's been 15 years of self inflicted scrutiny/overexposure. Ever since the salary cap issues and tanking saga and the years at the bottom with what seemed like an endless run of top 10 draft picks, the word out of the club has often been 'we're building up to something'. The rebuild has been going on for so long that the early top recruits in that rebuild are now reaching retirement (e.g. Murphy, Gibbs, Kruezer).

I, like many, have fallen for the 'this year we'll be pushing the eight' line more than once. Only, like you Carlton fans, to end up disappointed. Maybe the cynic in me is just nervous about believing anything out of Carlton any more. Been over-hyped too often.

Freo on the other hand spent their first 20 years as something of an amateur outfit. Totally unprofessional. Disastrous recruiting and trading, then when they got a good list, a disastrous playing style. A list that should have been attacking forced to play lock down defence. Two things have absolutely changed at Freo.
1. The recruiting/trading department have upped their game (Bell?)
2. The change of coach

May be that the list at Freo isn't much different or better than Carlton's, but the vibe around and about the club certainly is.