Analysis Clarko in 2019 “We’re a middle of the road team”

[kirbatron]

Will be a sad day when AC leaves. ill probably cry but ive been saying the last few weeks that he has too much baggage with this list to blow it up (which is what it needs).

Id also love him to get angry again. Give him a contract extension & let the goat have 3-4 years to get another.

 

[Jazzfan]

Does ‘you ppl’ include Clarko? He said himself in the preseason that it was hard to tell where the club was at, because of the disparity between our performances pre and post hub last year

Jeff Kennett said at the start of the year that we struggled in the hubs and we wouldn't be that bad this year, he could assure fans.

Edit: positively, Jeff had this to say this morning:

"Competitive for a decade": Kennett on Hawthorn's rebuild, Clarko's future and AFLW expansion

"We’ve said to our members quite openly that we’re not in the race for silverware this year."

www.sen.com.au

 

[Simon Crawshay]

I think the spotlight on our list strategy often means our Drafting gets overlooked.

I am mainly talking about post 2016.

We have had a lot 2nd and 3rd round picks that not only don't make it, but they go out in flames with obvious weaknesses.

Players like Lovell, Ross, Walker.

D Moore is on his way there too.(You could say he has overachieved given he doesn't have the pace for AFL as a player of his stature).

Kozi said he was going to be cut, if not for 2 club practice sessions late in 2020 when he was moved forward. As much as i love him, it is hard to see him getting a game for about 15 other clubs right now - and hard to see him ever being a KP forward in a top 8 team.

Finn, Morris, Seamus, and Downie - I obviously can't include them in a criticism, but it is not like they haven't got obvious obstacles to play AFL.

Mitchell Lewis - clearly a flawed player capable of genius - but it feels like we are teaching him the game. He is not the kind of hardened natural footballer that other clubs have uncovered as gems and put into key posts.

Our rookie selections - not so great. Hardly any gold there (CJ doesn't really count because he is an academy pick).

Our mature age selections - the less said the better.

I also worry about DGB at pick 6 - but that is another matter. .

You can defend any team's draft selections if you want to - you can point to Worpel and Day, for example. They are good selections. Burton at pick 19 - that was a gamble on an injured player who otherwise would have gone top 5. You can make arguments.

Overall, in the last 6 years, we come up short compared to other Victorians teams like Geelong, Rich, WB, or Port or WC or Syd. They have an abundance of players capable of performing at AFL level on their list. And when their drafted players don't make it they often end up at other clubs or in State leagues. Their picks don't go out in flames like ours often do.

If we want to be the best we have to judge ourselves against the best - right now our drafting is comparatively poor.

Some pretty fair points made.

It is true that post 2016 we have had a tendancy to draft players (even relatively high picks) with, I wouldn't call them weaknesses exactly, but obvious deficiencies (size, pace, etc).

Even last draft picking a player like Seamus Mitchell at such a relatively high pick over other more rounded, AFL ready draftees raised my eyebrows a little.

We seem to have been avoiding the obvious, safe picks and trying to be a little cute/left field field with our picks and I am not sure it has worked out (some of that has been due to our lower draft picks but not entirely).

We really need to nail our picks the next couple of drafts. If we get the chance to pick a gun midfielder ala Sam Walsh we have to do it rather than picking another small, slow utility type.

 

[theiaofseed]

Will be a sad day when AC leaves. ill probably cry but ive been saying the last few weeks that he has too much baggage with this list to blow it up (which is what it needs).

Id also love him to get angry again. Give him a contract extension & let the goat have 3-4 years to get another.

I've been thinking that Mitchell even if he's not the man to coach forward he might be the best for a reset, he's practical and straight to the point, I'm a firmly believe we need to trade Mitchell, get a high draft pick and allows Worpel to play number 1 or 2 rover and we can see what Cousins can do with a full run of games under his belt.

 

[The Spirit of Cricket]

Some pretty fair points made.

It is true that post 2016 we have had a tendancy to draft players (even relatively high picks) with, I wouldn't call them weaknesses exactly, but obvious deficiencies (size, pace, etc).

Even last draft picking a player like Seamus Mitchell at such a relatively high pick over other more rounded, AFL ready draftees raised my eyebrows a little.

We seem to have been avoiding the obvious, safe picks and trying to be a little cute/left field field with our picks and I am not sure it has worked out (some of that has been due to our lower draft picks but not entirely).

We really need to nail our picks the next couple of drafts. If we get the chance to pick a gun midfielder ala Sam Walsh we have to do it rather than picking another small, slow utility type.

will day is kind of a slow utility type and I see no issue with drafting him
also wasn't the obvious safe pick

DGB was by contrast the safe one. Cox or Perkins would've been the cute/left field ones at 6

we've begun to address our lack of speed with our picks in 2020

every player has deficiencies. every single one. Once u get lower in the draft its bound to be more apparent. You say the high picks are showing obvious deficiencies, which one? Will Day? or DGB, who hasn't debuted? because they're the only first rounders we've had (Burton gone but looked good too)

 

[Simon Crawshay]

will day is kind of a slow utility type and I see no issue with drafting him
also wasn't the obvious safe pick

DGB was by contrast the safe one. Cox or Perkins would've been the cute/left field ones at 6

we've begun to address our lack of speed with our picks in 2020

every player has deficiencies. every single one. Once u get lower in the draft its bound to be more apparent. You say the high picks are showing obvious deficiencies, which one? Will Day? or DGB, who hasn't debuted? because they're the only first rounders we've had (Burton gone but looked good too)

High picks is a relative term when discussing our list management considering we have traded away 90% of them.

I actually looked at our drafting history going back to 2015 just then and it actually sent a shiver down my spine.

Everyone in this board should do the same just to get an idea of what lies ahead the next 3 to 5 years.

Our cupboard is bare and winter is coming I am afraid.

 

[The Spirit of Cricket]

High picks is a relative term when discussing our list management considering we have traded away 90% of them.

I actually looked at our drafting history going back to 2015 just then and it actually sent a shiver down my spine.

Everyone in this board should do the same just to get an idea of what lies ahead the next 3 to 5 years.

Our cupboard is bare and winter is coming I am afraid.

no it isnt. high picks are high picks, and the lower down you go the more flawed players naturally get

our drafting since 16, when we've had the picks, has been fine. Good even. The problem is of course our strategy meant we had very little of them.

By contrast, and something that never gets bought up because we were winning - our drafting during our threepeat was dreadful and one of the reasons were in the mess we are in.

I don't think a single player drafted between 2012-16 played in our side on the weekend other than Hardwick. Maybe there's one more idk

 

[Jazzfan]

no it isnt. high picks are high picks, and the lower down you go the more flawed players naturally get

our drafting since 16, when we've had the picks, has been fine. Good even. The problem is of course our strategy meant we had very little of them.

By contrast, and something that never gets bought up because we were winning - our drafting during our threepeat was dreadful and one of the reasons were in the mess we are in.

I don't think a single player drafted between 2012-16 played in our side on the weekend other than Hardwick. Maybe there's one more idk

Isn't Will Day the only high pick we can safely call a success since 2016? Unless you're calling second round picks high?

Too early on Grainger-Barass.

 

[The Spirit of Cricket]

I think we can safely change thi

Isn't Will Day the only high pick we can safely call a success since 2016? Unless you're calling second round picks high?

Too early on Grainger-Barass.

yes that is what I was saying

 

[Jazzfan]

yes that is what I was saying

Yeah, we've had some good success around that mark. Hardwick and Worpel jump out.

I feel if we want this rebuild to be quick, Maginness, Downie, Brockman, Morris and Mitchell are going to be critical. We will need most to make it.

We also need Grainger-Barass to be a player we think can be elite. It will be a slow burn, but so was Weitering.

 

[KermitJagger]

There are significant challenges to remaining competitive considering what we've been through. It's difficult to compete losing 3 good running outside and link up players, and our 2 most experienced and senior defenders over a single off season, all the while having one of our two most experienced and senior forwards out for most of the year to date and our next most experienced and senior defender out for the season.

It's genuinely no surprise we're not playing well. I do think that most of our best players are still young enough to turn this around though, provided two things:

1. They stay fit and uninjured
2. We improve our depth

Our most desperate and pressing need is to improve the spread of our midfield, if Day can graduate to a wing/midfield role and we bring in someone like Kelly, Merrett or Cerra, I reckon that is most of the improvement we need. Again - provided the rest stay fit.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

Yeah, we've had some good success around that mark. Hardwick and Worpel jump out.

I feel if we want this rebuild to be quick, Maginness, Downie, Brockman, Morris and Mitchell are going to be critical. We will need most to make it.

We also need Grainger-Barass to be a player we think can be elite. It will be a slow burn, but so was Weitering.

It is unfortunate that we have to place so much pressure on Maginnes, Downie, etc to make such fast progress.

If the list management hadn't been so all over the place these last 5 years they would have a solid contingent of 23 to 28 year olds above them and they could be eased into it.

But at the moment we have a handful of ageing 28 year old + A graders (Mitchell, JOM, Gunston, Wingard, etc) a whole bunch of of journeyman in the middle age bracket and our promising but still very young and unproven 18 to 21 year olds (DGB, Day, Downie, etc)

That is not a list profile you want to see.

 

[H00t]

It is unfortunate that we have to place so much pressure on Maginnes, Downie, etc to make such fast progress.

If the list management hadn't been so all over the place these last 5 years they would have a solid contingent of 23 to 28 year olds above them and they could be eased into it.

But at the moment we have a handful of ageing 28 year old + A graders (Mitchell, JOM, Gunston, Wingard, etc) a whole bunch of of journeyman in the middle age bracket and our promising but still very young and unproven 18 to 21 year olds (DGB, Day, Downie, etc)

That is not a list profile you want to see.

Trying to cover the list hole created from 2012-2016 we created an even bigger hole. It’s why I hope we just slowly focus on the rebuild.

Even Kennett’s compete by 2023 is rubbish. This list is woeful. The most likely way we are in finals in 2023 is by trading in a heap of players for draft picks. And some FA.

Which is what got us into this mess. It won’t lead to a flag but a long stretch of mediocrity. I want to see this club take risks for the future. Not for the short term

 

[cryptor]

To give our list rebuild as it stands now an analogy, it's a bit like a big house renovation/extension.

Completely overhauling large parts of the property. (the list)

Currently many rooms are completely under construction and aren't yet usable on the current property. (Young players playing in the seniors)

Some pieces are being worked on off-site and will be brought in later which will really accelerate later progress. (Young players playing in the VFL)

While all this construction goes on we're forced to live within the only remaining habitable areas of the house. (Playing "the old guys" to ensure we don't get belted by 100+ every week)

And that results in some temporary compromises like having to order more take-out and showering at the gym. (Recruiting and playing "stop gap", "won't be part of our next flag" players)

Then you've got some of the kids who are whinging that they now have to share a room with their siblings when they used to have their own. (Club supporters who will gladly enjoy the benefits later but for now will whinge that we're not as good as we once were)

And then you've got nosey neighbours walking through this scene every second day, seeing all the chaos of the renovations and exclaiming that these living conditions are terrible, that you used to have a beautiful house, but now you should really think about demolishing the entire thing and starting from a slab. Completely unable to see that big renovations take time and will make things look a lot worse before they get better. (the footy media)

 

[The Spirit of Cricket]

It is unfortunate that we have to place so much pressure on Maginnes, Downie, etc to make such fast progress.

If the list management hadn't been so all over the place these last 5 years they would have a solid contingent of 23 to 28 year olds above them and they could be eased into it.

But at the moment we have a handful of ageing 28 year old + A graders (Mitchell, JOM, Gunston, Wingard, etc) a whole bunch of of journeyman in the middle age bracket and our promising but still very young and unproven 18 to 21 year olds (DGB, Day, Downie, etc)

That is not a list profile you want to see.

the only way we'd have 23-28 year olds is if we hit drafts during our three-peat, not the past 5 years. The first rounders we traded away would still be 20-22. Except maybe the Titch one but he was 23 when we got him anyway

We need a bunch of 25 year olds instead to be competitive. Sicily and Phillips literally our only players in that age range. Should look to trade to get some fringe blokes around there without giving too much capital even as depth

 

[Simon Crawshay]

Trying to cover the list hole created from 2012-2016 we created an even bigger hole. It’s why I hope we just slowly focus on the rebuild.

Even Kennett’s compete by 2023 is rubbish. This list is woeful. The most likely way we are in finals in 2023 is by trading in a heap of players for draft picks. And some FA.

Which is what got us into this mess. It won’t lead to a flag but a long stretch of mediocrity. I want to see this club take risks for the future. Not for the short term

2023 is extremely optimistic I agree.

I suppose he is the club president and it is his job to sell hope but it would take a miracle to turn it around in two years given the state of our list.

I think 2024 could be achievable (make the top 8) but even that would require the club to get just about every decision right in the next 3 years.

 

[hawkheart]

Will be a sad day when AC leaves. ill probably cry but ive been saying the last few weeks that he has too much baggage with this list to blow it up (which is what it needs).

Id also love him to get angry again. Give him a contract extension & let the goat have 3-4 years to get another.

Totally agree. It'll hurt like hell if he goes. He's still got the passion for a flag with a new gen, I'm sure if it.

 

[SA HAWK]

By contrast, and something that never gets bought up because we were winning - our drafting during our threepeat was dreadful and one of the reasons were in the mess we are in.

Thorp, Dowler & Ellis were disasters given their draft position.

If we nailed those picks we may not have had to give away picks for players like Gibson, Burgoyne, Lake & Mc Evoy etc..

 

[thehardway]

2023 is extremely optimistic I agree.

I suppose he is the club president and it is his job to sell hope but it would take a miracle to turn it around in two years given the state of our list.

I think 2024 could be achievable (make the top 8) but even that would require the club to get just about every decision right in the next 3 years.

I'd be happy that by 2023 we're far enough along the tunnel to see some light.

 

[arupist]

I don't think a single player drafted between 2012-16 played in our side on the weekend other than Hardwick. Maybe there's one more idk

Glimpses was drafted in 2012 - but he didn't play on the weekend.

 

[Mercy Seat]

2023 is optimistic, but the better run clubs tend to bounce back quicker than the Norths, Melbournes and Carltons.

Port have shown how some bold moves can pay dividends within a relatively short period. A lot has to go right.

 

[Yardie]

Kane really has it in for the hawks for some reason.

Maybe because Clarkson left them at the end of 04.......

 

[phreeze77]

Cornes compares us to Melbourne. Where have Melbourne been while we were winning flags ? It’s easy to get in talent when you’re s**t on field.

They got gifted 2 top 3 picks because chip frawley compo equated to bigger loss than Franklin by some stupid rule saying after first pick compensation. It allowed them to get Petracca and Brayshaw.

They lucked it in with future trading for pick 12 and kozzie...

We need to go down and stay there for a couple of years , trade out some assets that won’t be apart of our next flag and we will be competitive again ... clarko or not.

 

[cryptor]

Maybe because Clarkson left them at the end of 04.......

He retired in 2015 after he reached 300 games, but his last season as a useful player was 2014. We ended what ended up being his last chance for another premiership in that PF. They started the following year 2-6 and he retired to become a fireman lol

 

[Judd2Sewell]

If we completely bottom out and stick solely to the draft, we're guaranteed to win flags aren't we?

Worked out well for Carlton.

We did bottom out in 04 and won four flags largely off the back of that. Having a young Franklin, Roughie and Lewis would change so much for us. Never mind also trading out all our older average players that don't offer enough.