Opinion Brian Cook - Carlton's rebuild still has a fair way to go

[La Dispute]

Huge respect for Arrow for getting into the Christmas spirit and trying to help out the less fortunate during the festive season.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Anyone who watched Voss play appreciates what an extraordinary leader he was as well as a courageous and terrific player. Any time he has been in the media Voss shows a keen intelligence and sense of humour.

Personally I admired his return as an Assistant Coach, although there is not much of a sense of the quality of his contributions.

Coaching his old Club without an apprenticeship was always a high risk proposition. I think Buckley's time also illustrated that risk.

I expect he will be fine enough. The major challenge he faces is the list and instilling what he wants by way of a game plan. He also has the strength of character to keep interfering Board members and coterie boosters at bay and to keep a tight ship on the rumour mill.

 

[Arr0w]

Ill just stick to the facts thanks anyway

Let's look at those facts prior to this year

Flag winners and where they ranked for tackles

2013 Hawks 8th
2014 Hawks 16th
2015 Hawks 10th
2016 Dogs 12th
2017 Tigers 7th
2018 Eagles 15th
2019 Tigers 11th
2020 Tigers 8th

So your statement was that higher tackles were critical and a function on a better gameplan

Does that mean these sides should not have won the flag and had a bad gameplan?

 

[premiershipvigil]

Let's look at those facts prior to this year

Flag winners and where they ranked for tackles

2013 Hawks 8th
2014 Hawks 16th
2015 Hawks 10th
2016 Dogs 12th
2017 Tigers 7th
2018 Eagles 15th
2019 Tigers 11th
2020 Tigers 8th

So your statement was that higher tackles were critical and a function on a better gameplan

Does that mean these side should not have won the flag and had a bad gameplan?

No one is saying that. You keep avoiding the issue which is your tackle numbers are poor and that is not what should be happening. If your tackle numbers improve by 10 per game you'll be a lot more competitive.

 

[Arr0w]

No one is saying that. You keep avoiding the issue which is your tackle numbers are poor and that is not what should be happening.

No, no, never avoided that our tackle numbers were poor, just like the Demon tackle numbers were poor in 2019-20.

What i am stating is that you don't need elite tackle numbers to play finals nor win a flag and or improving those tackle numbers in one offseason with a more adequate gameplan, rather than having to teach men how to tackle

 

[premiershipvigil]

No, no, never avoided that our tackle numbers were poor, just like the Demon tackle numbers were poor in 2019-20.

What i am stating is that you don't need elite tackle numbers to play finals nor win a flag and or improving those tackle numbers in one offseason with a more adequate gameplan, rather than having to teach men how to tackle

Thank goodness glad to see we can finally agree.

If you can improve your numbers by 6-10 per game you will be heaps more competitive.

 

[Arr0w]

Thank goodness glad to see we can finally agree.

If you can improve your numbers by 6-10 per game you will be heaps more competitive.

I posted that yesterday, so you must have missed it

No, we don't have to "improve tackles" to be more competitive, as they are a byproduct of structures and setups, not the other way round

And of course, I have already provided the numbers of other sides, flag winners

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Defensive pressure the length of the ground seems to be pretty crucial nowadays. Forcing turnovers in the midfield and the forward line is vital to creation of second and third chances for forwards. I expect all 18 teams committed to this with greater or lesser success.

My eyes told me that Carlton were simply not good enough at applying pressure and poor at resisting it. Whether it is the attitude of some Carlton players, lack of aerobic fitness or carrying injury or the unknown combination of the above it was clear, to me at least, the better teams enjoyed playing Carlton.

I am aware plenty of Carlton fans have high hopes for younger players like Dow, Setterfield, Kennedy and LOB. Attitude and/or absence of aerobic capacity and general ability limits have cooled the jets of their careers.

Martin, Williams and McGovern are seniors on the list but are not renowned for their ability to apply pressure.

I really expect 2022 will be a key transition year for the Blues. Voss will rightly demand sharp improvements in defensive pressure as well as contested ball. I do not think it unreasonable to suggest there may be a clean out at season's end of those who fail to improve.

 

[Arr0w]

Defensive pressure the length of the ground seems to be pretty crucial nowadays. Forcing turnovers in the midfield and the forward line is vital to creation of second and third chances for forwards. I expect all 18 teams committed to this with greater or lesser success.

My eyes told me that Carlton were simply not good enough at applying pressure and poor at resisting it. Whether it is the attitude of some Carlton players, lack of aerobic fitness or carrying injury or the unknown combination of the above it was clear, to me at least, the better teams enjoyed playing Carlton.

I am aware plenty of Carlton fans have high hopes for younger players like Dow, Setterfield, Kennedy and LOB. Attitude and/or absence of aerobic capacity and general ability limits have cooled the jets of their careers.

Martin, Williams and McGovern are seniors on the list but are not renowned for their ability to apply pressure.

I really expect 2022 will be a key transition year for the Blues. Voss will rightly demand sharp improvements in defensive pressure as well as contested ball. I do not think it unreasonable to suggest there may be a clean out at season's end of those who fail to improve.

Think you missed the most important factor, a contested focused gameplan, rather than attack first and foremost gameplan

 

[premiershipvigil]

Defensive pressure the length of the ground seems to be pretty crucial nowadays. Forcing turnovers in the midfield and the forward line is vital to creation of second and third chances for forwards. I expect all 18 teams committed to this with greater or lesser success.

My eyes told me that Carlton were simply not good enough at applying pressure and poor at resisting it. Whether it is the attitude of some Carlton players, lack of aerobic fitness or carrying injury or the unknown combination of the above it was clear, to me at least, the better teams enjoyed playing Carlton.

I am aware plenty of Carlton fans have high hopes for younger players like Dow, Setterfield, Kennedy and LOB. Attitude and/or absence of aerobic capacity and general ability limits have cooled the jets of their careers.

Martin, Williams and McGovern are seniors on the list but are not renowned for their ability to apply pressure.

I really expect 2022 will be a key transition year for the Blues. Voss will rightly demand sharp improvements in defensive pressure as well as contested ball. I do not think it unreasonable to suggest there may be a clean out at season's end of those who fail to improve.

Great post, I think attitude and fitness are the two most important factors holding them back.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Think you missed the most important factor, a contested focused gameplan, rather than attack first and foremost gameplan

Of course contested footy is integral to success as is having the systems and player buy in to apply pressure when you do not have the footy.

We have a run of the mill KPF in McLean. When he started (via the MSD) he was completely gassed by half time. By contrast he now, courtesy of a lot of work, covers a huge amount of territory filling holes, providing long lead runs (often as a decoy to get separation) etc.

Pretty simple game really -

* Win the ball when it is in contest and use it well through a chain when you have possession. (hope your fwds do not miss sitters... this still drives to me distraction!)

* When the other mob have it, apply sustained pressure until an error is forced and then take advantage.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

Thank goodness glad to see we can finally agree.

If you can improve your numbers by 6-10 per game you will be heaps more competitive.

So, in 2017 the Eagles averaged 63.4 tackles per game (3rd worst in the league - nobody averaged less than 61). They finished 8th on the ladder and lost in the semis.
In 2018 they averaged less tackles (61 - 4th worst in the league). They finished 2nd on the ladder and won the flag, yet according to your theory (which you seem reluctant to budge on despite the growing mountain of proof), West Coast should have done better in 2017.

Conversely, in 2018 Gold Coast averaged 69.3 tackles per game (2nd best) and came 2nd last with 4 wins. That's 8 more per game than the previous year when they also finished 2nd last with 6 wins. According to your theory they should've been more competitive in 2018 with all those extra tackles.

It's almost like there's no correlation at all between tackle numbers and success.

 

[premiershipvigil]

So, in 2017 the Eagles averaged 63.4 tackles per game (3rd worst in the league - nobody averaged less than 61). They finished 8th on the ladder and lost in the semis.
In 2018 they averaged less tackles (61 - 4th worst in the league). They finished 2nd on the ladder and won the flag, yet according to your theory (which you seem reluctant to budge on despite the growing mountain of proof), West Coast should have done better in 2017.

Conversely, in 2018 Gold Coast averaged 69.3 tackles per game (2nd best) and came 2nd last with 4 wins. That's 8 more per game than the previous year when they also finished 2nd last with 6 wins. According to your theory they should've been more competitive in 2018 with all those extra tackles.

It's almost like there's no correlation at all between tackle numbers and success.

Nope. Totally different list, comparing 2017 eagles to 2021 Carlton is like a ferrari vs datsun. Carlton dont have the players to be a poor tackling team West Coast obviously did.

 

[Arr0w]

Nope. Totally different list, comparing 2017 eagles to 2021 Carlton is like a ferrari vs datsun. Carlton dont have the players to be a poor tackling team West Coast obviously did.

Now you are backtracking

This will end poorly if you keep going, it will be like changing feet

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

Nope. Totally different list, comparing 2017 eagles to 2021 Carlton is like a ferrari vs datsun. Carlton dont have the players to be a poor tackling team West Coast obviously did.

What?

 

[premiershipvigil]

Now you are backtracking

This will end poorly if you keep going, it will be like changing feet

Nope, I'm going fine, whereas solely blaming the coach's game plan for chronic under performing is really poor.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

Nope. Totally different list, comparing 2017 eagles to 2021 Carlton is like a ferrari vs datsun. Carlton dont have the players to be a poor tackling team West Coast obviously did.

Compare whatever you want. Look at as many years as you want and look at top 4 teams vs bottom 4 teams and look at where they ranked for both average tackles and tackle differential. None of it will stack up. There will be no pattern to support a theory.
Enjoy.

 

[Arr0w]

Nope, I'm going fine, whereas solely blaming the coach's game plan for chronic under performing is really poor.

You just contradicted yourself again. You stated that a better gameplan would allow higher tackle numbers, but we can't blame the poor gameplan. Told you, you would dig yourself deeper

All you did was look at the stats of this year, and made a claim, without any research.

Based on the facts that were presented, your claim is a massive fail, everyone in this thread knows it, BF would see it as a fail, the greater footy community would see it as a fail.

For your sack mate, just stop

 

[premiershipvigil]

Compare whatever you want. Look at as many years as you want and look at top 4 teams vs bottom 4 teams and look at where they ranked for both average tackles and tackle differential. None of it will stack up. There will be no pattern to support a theory.
Enjoy.

Some clubs have proved they have the ability and list composition to sustain low tackle numbers and still be successful, that's not you. Lack of tackles just exacerbates your list problem, further, it contributes to the lack of competitiveness because you're not putting enough pressure on the ball carrier.

 

[premiershipvigil]

You just contradicted yourself again. You stated that a better gameplan would allow higher tackle numbers, but we can't blame the poor gameplan. Told you, you would dig yourself deeper

All you did was look at the stats of this year, and made a claim, without any research.

Based on the facts that were presented, your claim is a massive fail, everyone in this thread knows it, BF would see it as a fail, the greater footy community would see it as a fail.

For your sack mate, just stop

Actually everyone sees your blaming Teague's game plan as a fail.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

Some clubs have proved they have the ability and list composition to sustain low tackle numbers and still be successful, that's not you. Lack of tackles just exacerbates your list problem, further, it contributes to the lack of competitiveness because your not putting enough pressure on the ball carrier.

That's not a thing.
Now you're just making stuff up to try and save your massively failing argument.
I'm done responding to this rubbish argument.

 

[owen87]

So, in 2017 the Eagles averaged 63.4 tackles per game (3rd worst in the league - nobody averaged less than 61). They finished 8th on the ladder and lost in the semis.
In 2018 they averaged less tackles (61 - 4th worst in the league). They finished 2nd on the ladder and won the flag, yet according to your theory (which you seem reluctant to budge on despite the growing mountain of proof), West Coast should have done better in 2017.

Conversely, in 2018 Gold Coast averaged 69.3 tackles per game (2nd best) and came 2nd last with 4 wins. That's 8 more per game than the previous year when they also finished 2nd last with 6 wins. According to your theory they should've been more competitive in 2018 with all those extra tackles.

It's almost like there's no correlation at all between tackle numbers and success.

Further to this;

2018 Eagles were first in the comp for average kicks and marks differential over their opponents but only mid-table for tackles. They were a team that played a kick-mark game to retain possession and make use of their strengths in that area around the ground, and their quality forward marking targets.

2019 & 2020 Tigers were #1 for average tackle differential in the comp, but bottom 4 for average clearance differential. They weren't a strong clearance or contested possession side, so they setup to apply tackle pressure to force turnovers to regain possession.

2021 Demons were #1 for i50s, hit-outs, contested possession, contested marks, marks i50 and metres gained. They were only mid-table for clearances and tackles though. They're a strong contested ball side so were able to win the disputed ball instead of tackling the opposition player.

If you want a stat the Premiers are consistently Top-4 in over the last few years? Turnover differential.

Demons were 2nd, Tigers were 2nd (2020), 3rd (2019) and 1st (2017), Eagles were 2nd, Hawks 4th.

Bulldogs 2016 was the only team not to be Top-4 in that stat since Footywire starts recording it in 2015 that won a Premiership, and their season was in many ways an anomaly.

Tackles are a good indicator of tackling, that's about it.

 

[premiershipvigil]

Further to this;

2018 Eagles were first in the comp for average kicks and marks differential over their opponents but only mid-table for tackles. They were a team that played a kick-mark game to retain possession and make use of their strengths in that area around the ground, and their quality forward marking targets.

2019 & 2020 Tigers were #1 for average tackle differential in the comp, but bottom 4 for average clearance differential. They weren't a strong clearance or contested possession side, so they setup to apply tackle pressure to force turnovers to regain possession.

2021 Demons were #1 for i50s, hit-outs, contested possession, contested marks, marks i50 and metres gained. They were only mid-table for clearances and tackles though. They're a strong contested ball side so were able to win the disputed ball instead of tackling the opposition player.

If you want a stat the Premiers are consistently Top-4 in over the last few years? Turnover differential.

Demons were 2nd, Tigers were 2nd (2020), 3rd (2019) and 1st (2017), Eagles were 2nd, Hawks 4th.

Bulldogs 2016 was the only team not to be Top-4 in that stat since Footywire starts recording it in 2015 that won a Premiership, and their season was in many ways an anomaly.

Tackles are a good indicator of tackling, that's about it.

And you generally need high tackle numbers to have a good tackle differential.

 

[owen87]

And you generally need high tackle numbers to have a good tackle differential.

Except good tackle differential doesn't correspond to winning games if you don't setup and play in a way that requires good tackle differential.

Melbourne, Eagles and Bulldogs were all Premiers without being any better than mid-table for tackle differential, because it wasn't integral to the way they played.

You have to go back to Sydney 2012 to find a side apart from Richmond that was Premier and a top tackle differential team.

 

[augie]

Surprised we never gave it to Robert Harvey

Not hard enough in the eyes of Williams and Parkin I guess.