Opinion Brian Cook - Carlton's rebuild still has a fair way to go

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Because he was going through the next list build cycle, after having contended for premierships over the previous 6 seasons!

Correct. Equalisation doing its thing.

Same coach, different players, different results.

 

[Fadge]

With the current respective lists as a starting point, unproven Voss starts his tenure as Carlton coach in 2022, whilst proven Clarkson starts his tenure as Gold Coast coach in 2023.

Who are you backing to win a flag first?

Gold Coast for me. Comfortably. And it helps that Gold Coast's list is already better.

 

[Fadge]

Correct. Equalisation doing its thing.

Same coach, different players, different results.

Clarkson stays at Hawthorn, and they contend again before Carlton.

 

[Herzog]

Your the one suggesting the coach is the most important factor, so that being the case, why would you say he was overrated?

But, before you start the deflections, answer the question, why did Clarkson miss finals 4 out of his last 5 years if he is considered one of the best coaches of the modern era?

Because any other coach would've missed all 5 years with that list?

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Clarkson stays at Hawthorn, and they contend again before Carlton.

That’s an opinion that doesn’t prove anything.

Not fact.

 

[Arr0w]

Because any other coach would've missed all 5 years with that list?

Possibly, even probable, but that doesn't change that the list in the appropriate age/experience bracket is the most important factor

 

[Jack Green]

Have always been in agreement with you on that.

List experience/games together > list talent > coaching, for mine. Though you do need all three.

Clarko’s Hawks had all three for a while there. Hence the dynasty.

Agreed - however once the list started sliding , the dynasty ended.
One of the poorer coaches at St Kilda[ and we have had a few] was Alex Jesaulenko . We also had Tony Jewell a premiership coach. Alan Joyce coached the Hawks to a flag in 91 before moving to Footscray.
These 3 coaches inherited great experienced talented lists and coached them to a flag. At other clubs they didn't weave their magic and I think there is a very obvious reason for this.

 

[Fadge]

Agreed - however once the list started sliding , the dynasty ended.
One of the poorer coaches at St Kilda[ and we have had a few] was Alex Jesaulenko . We also had Tony Jewell a premiership coach. Alan Joyce coached the Hawks to a flag in 91 before moving to Footscray.
These 3 coaches inherited great experienced talented lists and coached them to a flag. At other clubs they didn't weave their magic and I think there is a very obvious reason for this.

Yeah, slightly different era you're referring to there...

 

[Arr0w]

Clarkson stays at Hawthorn, and they contend again before Carlton.

Sick to the subject matter, your claim that coaches are the most important factor

Waiting on an answer regarding Clarkson, but I have many more for you

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Agreed - however once the list started sliding , the dynasty ended.
One of the poorer coaches at St Kilda[ and we have had a few] was Alex Jesaulenko . We also had Tony Jewell a premiership coach. Alan Joyce coached the Hawks to a flag in 91 before moving to Footscray.
These 3 coaches inherited great experienced talented lists and coached them to a flag. At other clubs they didn't weave their magic and I think there is a very obvious reason for this.

Totally agree. It’s the reason why I have your club rising next season, and the reason why I was so impressed by Melbourne this year, who were quite young as a list for such a dominant premier.

Experience is important.

God forbid the GC boys stick around and play 100+ games together.

 

[Jack Green]

Yeah, slightly different era you're referring to there...

Very good point - average premiership coaches in modern times like the 3 I've mentioned aren't springing to mind.

 

[Herzog]

Possibly, even probable, but that doesn't change that the list in the appropriate age/experience bracket is the most important factor

List is the most important factor. But is the best player more important than the coach?

 

[Jack Green]

Totally agree. It’s the reason why I have your club rising next season, and the reason why I was so impressed by Melbourne this year, who were quite young as a list for such a dominant premier.

Experience is important.

God forbid the GC boys stick around and play 100+ games together.

Yes - Clarko I suspect is waiting for Tassie to enter the comp , but if he tries his hand at Gold Coast at the end of next year, it may answer a lot of our questions on the importance of the head coach in the modern AFL.

 

[Jack Green]

List is the most important factor. But is the best player more important than the coach?

Great question
Dustin Martin/ Damien Hardwick ???

 

[Arr0w]

List is the most important factor. But is the best player more important than the coach?

I wouldn't even do the comparison, you could win a flag missing both, if the rest of the list had the appropriate quality/experience

 

[LoungeLizard]

My take.
A coach will not win without a good list.

A good list will not win without a good coach.

 

[Fadge]

My take.
A coach will not win without a good list.

A good list will not win without a good coach.

How does a good list get assembled?

 

[Jack Green]

I wouldn't even do the comparison, you could win a flag missing both, if the rest of the list had the appropriate quality/experience

List is obviously the most important factor. I remember Ross Lyon jokingly tongue -in -cheek say Nick Riewoldt made him a better coach.

 

[Arr0w]

My take.
A coach will not win without a good list.

A good list will not win without a good coach.

Hawks Alan Jeans, Joyce steps in same result

Joyce goes to the Dogs, never gets close

Jeans either side of Hawks, same result

 

[LoungeLizard]

How does a good list get assembled?

It's a good point, sometimes the list is only good because of the coach, role players at other clubs sometimes look very ordinary.

 

[Jack Green]

My take.
A coach will not win without a good list.

A good list will not win without a good coach.

Reckon the Saints from 2004 -2006 had the equal to best list in the comp under Grant Thomas. Couple of prelims and elimination final loss in those 3 years. He got them to where he got them. Knocking on the door. Would have been interesting what a top coach would have achieved with that list!

 

[Arr0w]

Reckon the Saints from 2004 -2006 had the equal to best list in the comp under Grant Thomas. Couple of prelims and elimination final loss in those 3 years. He got them to where he got them. Knocking on the door. Would have been interesting what a top coach would have achieved with that list!

Found that strange, coach being replaced after making finals and still growth in that list

 

[LoungeLizard]

Reckon the Saints from 2004 -2006 had the equal to best list in the comp under Grant Thomas. Couple of prelims and elimination final loss in those 3 years. He got them to where he got them. Knocking on the door. Would have been interesting what a top coach would have achieved with that list!

Could also go backwards as well.

Sometimes the coach and players just gel, like a well oiled machine/family, just my opinion, but some teams like Geelong were so well drilled once they hit top form anyone could coach them.
Other teams like Richmond needed Hardwick.

 

[Arr0w]

It's a good point, sometimes the list is only good because of the coach, role players at other clubs sometimes look very ordinary.

Actually no, hence why Clarko missed out 4 of his last 5 years as many of his stars deteriorated over that period

 

[Jack Green]

Found that strange, coach being replaced after making finals and still growth in that list

Timings everything. Personally wish Ross Lyon was there a few years earlier.