Moved Thread Who was/is the better player. Gary Ablett jnr or Dustin Martin?

[PhatBoy]

If Martin doesn't play in the 2020 GF, I don't think we win.

Goal 1 :We were 4 goals down in the second quarter. An incredible show of strength agility and skilll.

Goal 2: Puts us in front in the 3rd quarter by roving the ball and kicking a bouncing bananna from 35m.

Goal 3: Ices the game by breaking a tackle and kicking a 60m scrubbing torpedo.

Goal 4: Sharks a loose ball, breaks a Dangerfield tackle on the boundary and snaps from 25m.

Just a dominant match winning performance.

I agree. Not arguing otherwise for a single second. If Johnson doesn’t play in 2011 we don’t win either I don’t think.

Again it’s the premise that the AWARD Makes someone a great player. It’s not. It’s their performances that make them great.

It’s not having the medal draped around his neck after the game in 2020 that made Martin’s night memorable it was the fact that he played a really good game of footy. Same as Hawkins and Johnson did in 2011 without winning the medal. Hell, Selwood had 28 and 2 in the 2011 decider, 18 contested!!! 7 tackles! 8 clearances! Geez, Scott Pendulbury had 33 touches, 17 contested, 7 tackles, 10 clearances - is anyone about to say that ANY of those guys played worse in 2011 than what Johnson did in 2007 when he won the norm smith?

I sure wouldn’t.

If that was the ONLY grand final Pendles ever played and 2007 was the only one Johnson ever played and the time came to compare the two, there’s no way on earth I’d try and say ‘Johnson was the better finals player because he won a norm smith medal.’

 

[Falcon3518]

That’s beyond stupid you play attacking midfielder you don’t have to tackle…

We have small forwards for that, we have specifically designed Mid/fwd role for Dusty. Tackles if he can but it’s not his priority. Again what a waste of his talents. You gonna play GAJ as a KPD are ya?

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Maybe just personal opinion but I don’t think GAJ had the flair Dusty has. Dusty could do freak things. On the other hand GAJ was impressive because of sheer volume.

Yes I think Leigh Mathews said something like he had the strength of an ox and the touch of a surgeon.
My favourite Ablett goal is this one.

 

[Falcon3518]

I agree. Not arguing otherwise for a single second. If Johnson doesn’t play in 2011 we don’t win either I don’t think.

Again it’s the premise that the AWARD Makes someone a great player. It’s not. It’s their performances that make them great.

It’s not having the medal draped around his neck after the game in 2020 that made Martin’s night memorable it was the fact that he played a really good game of footy. Same as Hawkins and Johnson did in 2011 without winning the medal. Hell, Selwood had 28 and 2 in the 2011 decider, 18 contested!!! 7 tackles! 8 clearances! Geez, Scott Pendulbury had 33 touches, 17 contested, 7 tackles, 10 clearances - is anyone about to say that ANY of those guys played worse in 2011 than what Johnson did in 2007 when he won the norm smith?

I sure wouldn’t.

If that was the ONLY grand final Pendles ever played and 2007 was the only one Johnson ever played and the time came to compare the two, there’s no way on earth I’d try and say ‘Johnson was the better finals player because he won a norm smith medal.’

I think this is the chicken and the egg argument with you. The performance makes him great, which the award then “Franks”. He won the award BECAUSE of the performance, the medal doesn’t give him magic powers. Whenever I talk about medals it’s actually just other word for the performances, that’s what I am referring too. Not sure why this is difficult I think we actually agree on the same thing here.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

I agree. Not arguing otherwise for a single second. If Johnson doesn’t play in 2011 we don’t win either I don’t think.

Again it’s the premise that the AWARD Makes someone a great player. It’s not. It’s their performances that make them great.

It’s not having the medal draped around his neck after the game in 2020 that made Martin’s night memorable it was the fact that he played a really good game of footy. Same as Hawkins and Johnson did in 2011 without winning the medal. Hell, Selwood had 28 and 2 in the 2011 decider, 18 contested!!! 7 tackles! 8 clearances! Geez, Scott Pendulbury had 33 touches, 17 contested, 7 tackles, 10 clearances - is anyone about to say that ANY of those guys played worse in 2011 than what Johnson did in 2007 when he won the norm smith?

I sure wouldn’t.

If that was the ONLY grand final Pendles ever played and 2007 was the only one Johnson ever played and the time came to compare the two, there’s no way on earth I’d try and say ‘Johnson was the better finals player because he won a norm smith medal.’

Yes but Martin dominated those games and kicked goals at crucial times 3 times and no one came close to being best apart from Houli in 2017.

 

[Falcon3518]

Yes I think Leigh Mathews said something like he had the strength of an ox and the touch of a surgeon.
My favourite Ablett goal is this one.

People say that was GAJ best goal and I agree. Dusty did it better in a QF

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

People say that was GAJ best goal and I agree. Dusty did it better in a QF

Oh my, that's ridiculous yet deliberate and planned.

 

[doppleganger]

I might get shut down for this but I feel like as good Ablett was he dominated in era where their wasn't much competition.

What era are you talking about? Gaz was top of the pops from 07 until 13-14.

06-08, overlap with peak C.Judd, Buddy kicking 100, A.Goodes still flying etc.

09-11, judd now at Carlton, Swan and Pendles, Riewoldt and the Saints

12- 14 - rise of danger, fyfe, even cotchin and Watson on the gear.

In 2007 Gaz announced himself, Geelong BnF in a flag year, coaches MVP, players MVP and 4th in brownlow.

In 2013 Gaz was still dominant, he won Brownlow, AFL MVP, club BnF and was pipped by 1 vote for coaches player of the year.

Where Ablett was clearly number #1 their were no other great contenders of his spot.

Ridiculous comment

C.Judd still winning brownlows
Buddy kicking 100

Compare that to a meh player like Tom Mitchell who was the star of 2018, chalk and cheese.

like Selwood, Mitchell, Swan, Pendlebury were all around and clearly a notch below.

Yep, a notch below Gaz...these guys easily sit alongside Dusty.

I mean Dusty only has 2 BnFs for fecks sake

 

[PhatBoy]

I think this is the chicken and the egg argument with you. The performance makes him great, which the award then “Franks”. He won the award BECAUSE of the performance, the medal doesn’t give him magic powers. Whenever I talk about medals it’s actually just other word for the performances, that’s what I am referring too. Not sure why this is difficult I think we actually agree on the same thing here.

Ok fair enough so if it’s the performances you are basing your assessment on, rather than the medals, why does Martin’s 3 very excellent grand final performances make him untouchable when Ablett, in the two grand finals he played that we actually a contest, was absolutely fantastic? (He was fine against Port but he didn’t have to do anything) Why not actually try and pick them apart rather than just going ‘well he wasn’t the norm smith winner so he fails’?

He was exceptional in 2008 and while I have no problem Hodge winning the award as he was clearly sensational as well, I think any supporter of either side would have been just as satisfied if Ablett won in. In 2009 he was one of half a dozen players across both sides who was absolutely fantastic and any one of them could have won it.

 

[doppleganger]

On paper at least, the first guy. You’d need to actually see both though realistically

Bachar v Dusty 2017 GF stats

Bachar also dominant in 2019 GF

But Richmond nuffie theory is 0 medals to Bachar, so meh.

 

[Falcon3518]

Ok fair enough so if it’s the performances you are basing your assessment on, rather than the medals, why does Martin’s 3 very excellent grand final performances make him untouchable when Ablett, in the two grand finals he played that we actually a contest, was absolutely fantastic? (He was fine against Port but he didn’t have to do anything) Why not actually try and pick them apart rather than just going ‘well he wasn’t the norm smith winner so he fails’?

He was exceptional in 2008 and while I have no problem Hodge winning the award as he was clearly sensational as well, I think any supporter of either side would have been just as satisfied if Ablett won in. In 2009 he was one of half a dozen players across both sides who was absolutely fantastic and any one of them could have won it.

Because they are BOG, just out of curiosity what were the norm smith votes in the GFs for GAJ? Dustys were all unanimous with the exception of terry wallace in 2017, he must have been drunk.

 

[marcmurphy3]

This is what I’m talking about PB, this bloke reckons he’s a 4-5 time Brownlow winner from this ststatement.

If you look at the MVP it generally goes to the player regarded as the best player in the comp in a particular year. Ablett won it 5 times and was universally regarded as the games best player from 2007-14. Nothing to do with brownlows which are a poor measure.

Pretty clear you are losing this argument.

 

[Lingsface]

Abletts
07 qualifying- 32 possesions 2 goals
07 prelim-31 possesions 1 goal
2008 qualifying final - 35 possesions 1 goal
08 prelim- 29 possesions 1 goal
08 Grand final- 34 possesions 2 goals
09 qualifying-31 possesions 1 goal
09 prelim- 34 possesions 2 goals
2010 - SF 36 possesions
Prelim- 40 possesions

Never performed in finals… are you kidding me?

 

[PhatBoy]

Yes but Martin dominated those games and kicked goals at crucial times 3 times and no one came close to being best apart from Houli in 2017.

Again, not denying that for a second.

In 2011 4 minutes into the third quarter Collingwood have kicked the first of the second half to take a 4 point lead.

In the next 31 minutes of play, Tom Hawkins takes 5(?) contested marks, kicks 3.3 and dishes off an assist to Johnson following ANOTHER of his total of 7 contested marks for the game, and Geelong lead the grand final by 3 goals.

Hawkins finished the day with no Norm Smith medal.

Can anyone say that performance was not better than Johnson’s in 2007 or Martin’s in 2019 in what were two cakewalks?

The logic of judging someone as ‘the best finals player ever’ or whatever title you want to give someone JUST because they won 3 norm smith medals RATHER than assessing the actual performances he produced and the performances of others who maybe DIDNT win medals, is seriously flawed.

And that is NOT to say that Martin isn’t obviously in the conversation for greatest finals player or clutch player or whatever but the medals don’t make it so.

 

[Falcon3518]

What era are you talking about? Gaz was top of the pops from 07 until 13-14.

06-08, overlap with peak C.Judd, Buddy kicking 100, A.Goodes still flying etc.

09-11, judd now at Carlton, Swan and Pendles, Riewoldt and the Saints

12- 14 - rise of danger, fyfe, even cotchin and Watson on the gear.

In 2007 Gaz announced himself, Geelong BnF in a flag year, coaches MVP, players MVP and 4th in brownlow.

In 2013 Gaz was still dominant, he won Brownlow, AFL MVP, club BnF and was pipped by 1 vote for coaches player of the year.


Ridiculous comment

C.Judd still winning brownlows
Buddy kicking 100

Compare that to a meh player like Tom Mitchell who was the star of 2018, chalk and cheese.


Yep, a notch below Gaz...these guys easily sit alongside Dusty.

I mean Dusty only has 2 BnFs for fecks sake

If Dusty went to north and had no finals success yes, but us Dusty fans argue finals puts him a tiny bit in front of GAJ. This debate essentially becomes how much value do you put on finals compared to H&A, any opinion is valid.

 

[Falcon3518]

If you look at the MVP it generally goes to the player regarded as the best player in the comp in a particular year. Ablett won it 5 times and was universally regarded as the games best player from 2007-14. Nothing to do with brownlows which are a poor measure.

Pretty clear you are losing this argument.

Brownlow 2, coaches award 3. Therefore it is closer to 3 than 7. GAJ playing at Gold Coast inflated his MVP record by default.

 

[Daka]

Bachar v Dusty 2017 GF stats

Bachar also dominant in 2019 GF

But Richmond nuffie theory is 0 medals to Bachar, so meh.

Houli was not even close to Dusty in 2019. it was unamious go through the history of the norm smith and you'll realize how many aren't unamious.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Again, not denying that for a second.

In 2011 4 minutes into the third quarter Collingwood have kicked the first of the second half to take a 4 point lead.

In the next 31 minutes of play, Tom Hawkins takes 5(?) contested marks, kicks 3.3 and dishes off an assist to Johnson following ANOTHER of his total of 7 contested marks for the game, and Geelong lead the grand final by 3 goals.

Hawkins finished the day with no Norm Smith medal.

Can anyone say that performance was not better than Johnson’s in 2007 or Martin’s in 2019 in what were two cakewalks?

The logic of judging someone as ‘the best finals player ever’ or whatever title you want to give someone JUST because they won 3 norm smith medals RATHER than assessing the actual performances he produced and the performances of others who maybe DIDNT win medals, is seriously flawed.

And that is NOT to say that Martin isn’t obviously in the conversation for greatest finals player or clutch player or whatever but the medals don’t make it so.

If you are universally judged best on ground in the 3 Grand Finals you played, that sets you apart from everybody else imo.

 

[PhatBoy]

Because they are BOG, just out of curiosity what were the norm smith votes in the GFs for GAJ? Dustys were all unanimous with the exception of terry wallace in 2017, he must have been drunk.

I don’t know what the votes were but he was runner up

 

[Falcon3518]

Bachar v Dusty 2017 GF stats

Bachar also dominant in 2019 GF

But Richmond nuffie theory is 0 medals to Bachar, so meh.

You sneakily left out disposals and contested possessions. Shows you have to edit the facts to prove your point, says a lot.

 

[PhatBoy]

If you are universally judged best on ground in the 3 Grand Finals you played, that sets you apart from everybody else imo.

It means you’ve been judged best afield in 3 grand finals. It doesn’t mean you have played 3 grand finals that are all better than someone else who has also played 3 very good grand finals but wasn’t judged best afield.

It’s not Xavier Ellis’ fault that one of his teammates (and GAJ) played brilliantly in 2008 as well.

 

[PhatBoy]

You sneakily left out disposals and contested possessions. Shows you have to edit the facts to prove your point, says a lot.

Most of us can add up kicks and handballs without the aid of a pre-published total

 

[Falcon3518]

Most of us can add up kicks and handballs without the aid of a pre-published total

Haha yea fair, contested possies then. I think it was more than double. 2017 norm Smith argument is so dumb.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

It means you’ve been judged best afield in 3 grand finals. It doesn’t mean you have played 3 grand finals that are all better than someone else who has also played 3 very good grand finals but wasn’t judged best afield.

It’s not Xavier Ellis’ fault that one of his teammates (and GAJ) played brilliantly in 2008 as well.

Yeah they all played great but Martin's games were a higher standard on a different level imo.

 

[doppleganger]

If Dusty went to north and had no finals success yes, but us Dusty fans argue finals puts him a tiny bit in front of GAJ. This debate essentially becomes how much value do you put on finals compared to H&A, any opinion is valid.

GAZ did have finals success??

He stood up in big finals from 07-10 and was enormous for the Cats, instrumental in them winning 2 flags.

If Cats kick straight in 08 he wins the norm, as was clear best for Geelong (arguably better than Hodge anyway.)

GAZ was better for longer, and GAZ played just as many big finals as Dusty. If 22 touches and 2 goals is some high water mark, GAZ did that in his poor finals.