Quarter of a century without Fitzroy: Is the AFL better or worse off?

[Toump Ass]

The point of mentioning being a shareholder of the Fitzroy Football Club, is that I was a shareholder of the Fitzroy Football Club in 1996 and I am a shareholder of the very same club in 2023.

You're welcome to your delusion.

From the Deed definitions. "Merged Club" means Brisbane Bears.."

Yes, this is how most mergers work Roy. One entity absorbs another. In this case, the Brisbane Bears absorbed the Fitzroy Football Club, then changed their name to reflect the fact that a merger had taken place.

It's right there in the definition you just posted Roy. The word "Merged".

Edit: highlighted, underlined, and changed the font size of the word merged for you, nice and clear now I hope.

 

[Roylion]

I suppose the pertinent bit.

How many went down your path? How many snubbed and just follow Fitzroy? How many dumped the game altogether?

There are figures but they were from some time ago. Some took years off and then gradually began supporting Brisbane. Some follow Fitzroy in the VAFA, but obviously the level of exposure and publicity means less supporters.

If I was in the same boat and the Pies went to the VAFA, well I'd be watching the VAFA.

There was a 12 year gap between Fitzroy leaving the AFL and joining the VAFA which didn't help either. The club was reduced to a shell and it took quite a while to rebuild membership and support to a level where it could join another competition.

I imagine most Pie fans would, they wouldn't be too keen on travelin to bris all the time to watch the 'Brisbane Magpies'.

Which is why the Fitzroy directors sought a Melbourne club to merge with as opposed to an interstate club like the Bears.

one like yours, I'd just be watching Fitzroy.

After a lifetime of supporting the VFL-AFL it's more difficult to walk away than you might suppose. Had there been no vestige of Fitzroy in the AFL whatsover, then I almost certainly would have.

 

[Roylion]

You're welcome to your delusion.

I'm not the one deluded. I was actually involved in the events of 1996.

Yes, this is how most mergers work Roy. One entity absorbs another.

When one entity absorbs another (with the absorbed entity ceasing to exist) then that is called a takeover.

The Fitzroy Football Club continued to exist in its own right. So Fitzroy wasn't even absorbed...as it still exists to this day. Buying a few odds and ends from another club and rebranding with AFL owned IP is not a merger.

As I said, I am a current shareholder in 2023 of the very same Club I was a shareholder of in 1996, when the Club held an AFL licence.

In this case, the Brisbane Bears absorbed the Fitzroy Football Club, then changed their name to reflect the fact that a merger had taken place.

The Brisbane Bears rebranded. The Brisbane Lions are still the same club as the Brisbane Bears.

How do you absorb a club and then sue that absorbed club? How do you hold a registered charge over the same absorbed club three years after that so called absorption? How does an absorbed club that supposedly no longer exists, take the club that supposedly absorbed them to the Victorian Supreme Court fourteen years after the event?

It's right there in the definition you just posted Roy. The word "Merged".

Merged Club means "Brisbane Bears". That's what it says in the Deed.

 

[terrybull]

SANFL was trying to take that path - they had spokenthe VFL about joining in the 80s but couldn't agree on terms, especially about rationalising the number of Vic clubs. The SANFL clubs (port included) agreed to hold off any further talks until 1993 - but Port broke this agreement.

What would Victorian fans do if there was a AFL that only had Collingwood, Carlton and Melbourne, and the rest stayed in the VFL? Would Richmond fans support Collingwood, Carlton, Melbourne or no-one in the AFL?

Footyfan1978 I think answered this question. In time those clubs would get stronger where new generations would follow one of those three clubs. Probably most oldies would go as well while not support. I think the desire to see the best weights out loyalty in the end. The proof is the rapid decline of the SANFL and WAFL.

 

[Bjo187]

Going by history, let's say a Victorian club is struggling big time for crowds, money, on field, we can take the leanings from the past to show that the best model would be in the following order:

1. Relocation of struggling club to a non footy market (ie. Swans - keep your identity, attract new fans in new markets that don't have a team already. This would have been perfect if north moved to gold coast or w. sydney, I would even suggest giving them 2 or 3 home games at marvel to retain their Vic supporters. If the offer wasn't stuffed up we'd still be at 16 clubs and have a stronger north playing on the gold coast, instead of the suns).

2. Relocation to an established footy market (ie. Saints to Tassie - oldies will already have their AFL clubs they'll stick with, however over generations, kids will adopt the new local team and won't care they originally came from Victoria).

3. Merger locally (making a new big powerful club, fans can still attend games, you would probably lose about 30 percent of fans of the separare entities in the wash though, but the new merged club would be bigger and stronger, ie. North Western Roodogs).

4. Merger interstate (Brisbane lions model, loses half the clubs identity plus Vic fans can't attend games often, probably lost around 50 percent of Fitzroy fans from the game forever. It did however strengthen Brisbane into a relatively strong club today).

5. Creating new clubs from scratch in non footy markets (no history, no base fan base, set up costs, difficulty in early years, draft comprimises, drain on competition finances, struggle for market penetration and crowds, we can thank Demetriou for these stuff ups with gws and gc, bringing them in at the same time and his dodgey offer to north made them withdraw their strong interest in relocating to the GC).

6. Revoke licence (lose pretty much a whole supporter base from the game).

*In saying all this, I think back in the 80s and 90s the perfect model would have been to relocate more struggling Vic clubs to places like Canberra, Gold coast, Tasmania etc. They would all be well and truly bedded down now, would have retained their full identity and have the backing of their Vic supporter base creating stronger clubs in these new or smaller markets, at least much stronger than we have now.

 

[terrybull]

Well I guess if you ask a Fitzroy fan or even a South Melb fan for that matter, you'll get differing views of despair. Some still follow, that's some sort of compromise I couldn't accept, and I'm sure many others wouldn't either.

Probably better for roy fans as their club still competes in the VAFA, South Melbourne I'm not sure if they still exist.

South Melbourne went to Sydney.

Roylion points out it took Fitzroy 12 years to go to the VAFA.

12 years without footy is a long long time. Of course supporters will change allegiances or drop the game altogether.

It killed off any possible moment to comeback to the AFL.

 

[Roylion]

- in saying all this, I think back in the 80s and 90s the perfect model would have been to relocate more struggling Vic clubs to places like Canberra, Gold coast, Tasmania etc.

Unfortunately the AFL weren't interested in that model and instead were desperate to keep the competition at 16 teams. In August 1995 Fitzroy looked at a possible partial relocation to Canberra by offering to play at least four and possibly up to seven home games in Canberra in the 1996 season.

The Club's application to play in Canberra had the support of 'AFL for Canberra' organisation, the Canberra Raiders, the Ainslee Football Club and the ACT chief minister who had offered for the ACT government to upgrade Bruce Stadium if there were two national teams playing out of the stadium. When adding in corporate sponsorship, and ground rights at Bruce Stadium (which would have been upgraded), Fitzroy's projections showed they would have made $1 million extra per season.

The full timeline of events was:
1995 - 27th May - Fitzroy played their Round 9 home game in Canberra against West Coast
1995 - 15th June - Ian Collins publicly supported Fitzroy's application to play four home games in Canberra in 1996, after application by Fitzroy was submitted (Malcolm Conn: The Australian)
1995 - 25th August - AFL commission rejected Fitzroy's application to play four home games in Canberra in Season 1996
1995 - 28th August - AFL Commissioner Ron Evans told Dyson Hore-Lacy that if Fitzroy were prepared to play the majority of its home games in Canberra, the Commission might look at it. Fitzroy had eleven home games, means that the "majority" was seven.
1995 - September - North Melbourne made a formal written merger proposal to Fitzroy
1995 - October - "AFL for Canberra" endeavours to meet with Fitzroy Football Club, the Ainslee Football Club, the ACT Chief Minister and the AFL commission to discuss a deal where Fitzroy (who had agreed to do so) might play up to seven home games in Canberra. Request for meeting was rejected by the AFL.
1996 - 21st February - Ross Oakley informs Dyson Hore-Lacy that the AFL would not support any initiative for Fitzroy to play any home games in Canberra. Oakley publicly calls Fitzroy their "weakest product" and that the Canberra initiative would not be "creditable".
1996 – March 6. Fitzroy board authorised board members Dyson Hore-Lacy, Elaine Findlay and Robert Johnstone to enter non-binding merger agreements with other AFL clubs.

They would all be well and truly bedded down, retained their full identity and have the backing of their Vic supporter base creating stronger clubs in these new or smaller markets than we have now.

My guess is that it would have been eventually something like the Fitzroy-Canberra Football Club (trading as the "Canberra Lions") and wearing in Canberra what is pretty much the Brisbane Lions jumper (with blue shorts!) and the famous FFC logo on the breast of the jumper.

Maybe would have still have worn the FFC jumper in Melbourne with the Fitzroy lion on the breast. And the word "canberra" on the other breast.

Under those conditions I certainly would have supported the 'Canberra Lions'.

 

[terrybull]

Willing to bet if you ask any die hard fan of any club, they'll follow their club regardless.

I'll add this is a hypothetical you're talking about here, that would never become a reality, neither the blues or the pies are ever going to be in a lesser league - too much demand. Sure put any number of x team in a 'lesser' league and the bulk of their fan base and members will follow, you'd just make that league bigger.

I'm a firm believer if we went to a state league format, like it was before the vfl expanded, all the state leagues would be much much bigger and the vlf would be much like it was, . Slightly higher profile than the rest, and a hopeful to have Fitzroy and South Melb back. - that'll never happen.

Yeah I guess there are still some die-hard generations of fans of Port Melbourne that stayed on with the break-away of the VFL

 

[Toump Ass]

I'm not the one deluded.

The Deed is very clear, the book "Merger" appropriately named.
Feel free to write a book on the "Rebrand" if you like, I feel like you have most of it prepared already?

The Fitzroy Football Club continued to exist in its own right.

A bunch of tired old coots selling "a few odds and ends" from a beat up Holden at a local park isn't a football club..?

How do you absorb a club and then sue that absorbed club?

Yes, there are many scenarios resulting from mergers, acquisitions/takeovers etc.
Been involved in a few myself.

How does an absorbed club that supposedly no longer exists, take the club that supposedly absorbed them to the Victorian Supreme Court...

Was this the court case that ended with a joint statement, that said in part:

"The two clubs have agreed that the side-on Fitzroy-style Lion symbolically represents the historic merger between the Bears and Fitzroy and the first 13 years of the Brisbane Lions competing in the AFL... Since the 1996 merger, the Brisbane Lions have participated in the AFL competition. The Brisbane Lions' home, away and clash guernseys - or any future club guernseys - have never been the subject of court proceedings and will not be changing."





... you see Roy, this statement makes it sound like a merger to me. It's literally the Fitzroy Football Club which you claim to be a shareholder of, using the word "merger" to describe their merger with the Brisbane Bears. No mention of the word "re-brand" there?

 

[peetoo]

Roylion can probably support that while the Fitzroy lions actively tried to move into a new market as a a standalone, the VFL/AFL white anted this at every turn.
I suppose they already saw the swans struggling for years after an encouraging start in Sydney

But then they created the brisbane bears playing out of the Gold Coast. Seems quite amateurish now.

25 years on we can clearly see the amateurism, if nothing else

 

[Roylion]

A bunch of tired old coots selling "a few odds and ends" from a beat up Holden at a local park isn't a football club..?

It was far more than that. As I've explained to you before.

Fitzroy, when it was in recess, had shareholders, directors, paid up members, a bricks and mortar merchandise shop and had trademarked the FFC logo. They even had their jumper and naming rights for a VFL club (the Coburg-Fitzroy Lions in 1999-2000, much to chagrin of some at the Brisbane Lions). They also sought to advocate for Brisbane Lions Victorian members (which is why they ended up in court against the Lions)

Was this the court case that ended with a joint statement, that said in part:

Yeah the same court case where the Brisbane Lions argued in trying to distance themselves in what they saw as Fitzroy Football Club's "interference" in resisting the Lions' logo change from the 'Fitzroy Lion' to the 'paddlepop' lion.

The Brisbane Lions claimed that the Fitzroy Football Club was a club with a "shrinking if not vanishing supporter base that sought to meddle in the business of a current AFL club". (Brisbane Lions' barrister, Rodney Garratt QC, March 2nd 2010)

Clearly the Lions regarded Fitzroy as not part of their AFL club and therefore it clearly was not a "merger".

The same case where the Victorian Supreme Court Associate Justice Nemeer Mukhtar found that the Fitzroy Football Club still existed in its own right in the VAFA and was independent of the Brisbane Lions.

"The two clubs have agreed that the side-on Fitzroy-style Lion symbolically represents the historic merger between the Bears and Fitzroy and the first 13 years of the Brisbane Lions competing in the AFL...

That in fact is a statement from the Brisbane Lions issued at the conclusion of the mediation talks.

The same statement said...

"The Brisbane Lions wish the Fitzroy Football Club all the best in the VAFA and commend them on their strong grassroots community ties."

Since the 1996 merger, the Brisbane Lions have participated in the AFL competition. The Brisbane Lions' home, away and clash guernseys - or any future club guernseys - have never been the subject of court proceedings and will not be changing."

This is a Brisbane Lions statement.

... you see Roy, this statement makes it sound like a merger to me.

Of course it does. The Brisbane Lions and the AFL market what happened in 1996 as a merger. I know for a fact no 1996 director of the Fitzroy Football Club regards what happened in 1996 as a merger.

It's literally the Fitzroy Football Club which you claim to be a shareholder of, using the word "merger" to describe their merger with the Brisbane Bears.

That is a Brisbane Lions statement.

From the AFL site.
Brisbane Lions settle logo dispute with Fitzroy


And here

Brisbane Lions and Fitzroy reach settlement

I was in fairly constant contact with members of the Fitzroy Football Club board in 2010 (and who were taking the Brisbane Lions to court) when the court case was happening and I can tell you categorically that none of them regarded the events of 1996 as a "merger".

It's marketing. If you're happy to go along with what AFL marketing wants you to believe, then good luck to you.

The AFL doesn't even include Fitzroy's VFL-AFL records as part of their Brisbane Lions official AFL records. Yet the Brisbane Bears records are included as part of the Brisbane Lions records and the AFL regards the club as having started in 1987.

So whatever the AFL might market the events of 1996 as, they know the reality of the situation. No merger took place.

 

[Toump Ass]

Yeah I'm not reading all that lol

 

[Area51]

It's a ****ing disgrace that Fitzroy were made to merge. Nothing more than bad timing given how much money the AFL has since pumped into other basket case clubs (yes, Fitzroy were a financial basket case, but that doesn't mean they should have been pushed out like they were). The Melbourne based clubs are the heart and soul of the AFL and Fitzroy were part of that group.

 

[Lets Roar like '44]

Yeah I'm not reading all that lol

I did. And you might not read it since you’ve had your little rant, but when RoyLion continually tries to educate people like yourself, and don’t worry there’s plenty of people out there who are keen to hear the whole story, you should be thankful and grateful of the knowledge they bring, instead of trying to shoot it down because you can.

 

[Carringbush2010]

South Melbourne went to Sydney.

Roylion points out it took Fitzroy 12 years to go to the VAFA.

12 years without footy is a long long time. Of course supporters will change allegiances or drop the game altogether.

It killed off any possible moment to comeback to the AFL.

Yeah I'm aware that south went to syd, as the same club.

That'd be like moving Richmond to Sydney and calling them Sydney Tigers.

My question was is there a South Melbourne football club like there is a Fitzroy, in another league? Something old South fans who don't follow Syd for whatever reason could follow.

Also, I don't think 12 years out of footy is the main driver of fan dissolvement, sure would have impact, but merging / culling in the first place is going to be the elephant in the room.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Yeah I guess there are still some die-hard generations of fans of Port Melbourne that stayed on with the break-away of the VFL

Let's pretend for a minute that for all intent and purpose, to equalize the league as much as humanly possible. The league puts forward proposals of mergers, relocations and dissolutions of vic clubs

Let's also pretend that the clubs vote in favour by majority, as stated in the charter.

Tomorrow.

I'd put my house on it that overwhelming majority of fans will, snub the game or follow another league. Unless said relocation is within practical distance, like the same state.

Suppose it comes down to how one defines die hard.

 

[Toump Ass]

I did. And you might not read it since you’ve had your little rant, but when RoyLion continually tries to educate people like yourself, and don’t worry there’s plenty of people out there who are keen to hear the whole story, you should be thankful and grateful of the knowledge they bring, instead of trying to shoot it down because you can.

I'm very grateful for Roy's knowledge and him sharing it, I don't agree with his perspective though. I'm sure he appreciates me playing along with his pedantry too, I know how much he loves recycling his thesis on the Lions.

Anyway I think it's a little bit disingenuous to call his perspective the whole story.

 

[Lets Roar like '44]

I'm very grateful for Roy's knowledge and him sharing it, I don't agree with his perspective though. I'm sure he appreciates me playing along with his pedantry too, I know how much he loves recycling his thesis on the Lions.

Anyway I think it's a little bit disingenuous to call his perspective the whole story though.

It’s not his perspective, he’s telling it how it actually is/ was, with evidence. You disagree, well done you weren’t there and are too ignorant to take in what he says. RoyLion obviously was there and is still involved so not sure why you feel the need to disagree.

 

[raymond35]

Yeah I'm aware that south went to syd, as the same club.

That'd be like moving Richmond to Sydney and calling them Sydney Tigers.

My question was is there a South Melbourne football club like there is a Fitzroy, in another league? Something old South fans who don't follow Syd for whatever reason could follow.

Also, I don't think 12 years out of footy is the main driver of fan dissolvement, sure would have impact, but merging / culling in the first place is going to be the elephant in the room.

South Melbourne Districts is the amateur club that I think some people went to, don't know a lot about them however.

 

[Roylion]

RoyLion obviously was there and is still involved so not sure why you feel the need to disagree.

My involvement in 1996 was as a shareholder (one of 774 shareholders sharing 583,000 shares) and as such I attended meetings of shareholders when required. I definitely was not on the board. I wasn't a creditor either. Never been a director. Just a shareholder, member and fervent supporter.

On December 22 1997, Brennan resigned as the administrator and returned control of the Fitzroy Football Club to its directors. Fitzroy emerged from what was effectively an 18 month coma. The shareholders voted to continue the club after that happened.

Fitzroy chairman Dyson Hore-Lacy then stated in February 1998 "Fitzroy Football Club has no assets and no liabilities. It is a debt-free football club - possibly the only one in Australia ... We will be proceeding as normal, the only difference being that we have not got a football team. So that's a significant difference."

I know all the directors on the board in 1996...some better than others. I've spoken often since with the likes of Dyson Hore-Lacy, Colin Hobbs, Elaine Findlay, Bill Atherton and the like at various functions, at meetings and other social occasions, who over the years have told me a great deal of background information about what happened in 1996 at a board level and what has happened since. Much of it is in the public arena as well, but many aren't aware of it.

What I say can be taken or rejected as people see fit. However I can say than none of the directors of Fitzroy in 1996 regarded what happened as a merger. They were in the process of negotiating a merger with North Melbourne.

 

[Carringbush2010]

South Melbourne Districts is the amateur club that I think some people went to, don't know a lot about them however.

I looked it up, however I don't think there's any official connection with South Melbourne.

COMMUNITY — South Melbourne District Sports Club Inc.

www.smdsc.com.au

'The club has close links with the Sydney Swans, through its historical connection to South Melbourne.'

That's all I could find on what would be an attractor for fans of the old VFL South Melbourne.

 

[Toump Ass]

It’s not his perspective, he’s telling it how it actually is/ was, with evidence.

LOL even the Fitzroy Football Club called it a merger in their statement after the court case re: the logo.

But it's fine, you can pretend otherwise, I don't really care.

 

[TheRealCrazyQ]

I did. And you might not read it since you’ve had your little rant, but when RoyLion continually tries to educate people like yourself, and don’t worry there’s plenty of people out there who are keen to hear the whole story, you should be thankful and grateful of the knowledge they bring, instead of trying to shoot it down because you can.

Facts.

 

[terrybull]

Yeah I'm aware that south went to syd, as the same club.

That'd be like moving Richmond to Sydney and calling them Sydney Tigers.

My question was is there a South Melbourne football club like there is a Fitzroy, in another league? Something old South fans who don't follow Syd for whatever reason could follow.

Also, I don't think 12 years out of footy is the main driver of fan dissolvement, sure would have impact, but merging / culling in the first place is going to be the elephant in the room.

Isn’t there a South Melbourne playing red and white in the VAFA?

But would you follow a team called Collingwood in the VAFA that is and never been the Collingwood of the VFA/VFL/AFL and not be interested in the professional Leagues anymore?

 

[Carringbush2010]

Isn’t there a South Melbourne playing red and white in the VAFA?

But would you follow a team called Collingwood in the VAFA that is and never been the Collingwood of the VFA/VFL/AFL and not be interested in the professional Leagues anymore?

No probably not, because it is not the Collingwood that I support.