Quarter of a century without Fitzroy: Is the AFL better or worse off?

[terrybull]

Let's pretend for a minute that for all intent and purpose, to equalize the league as much as humanly possible. The league puts forward proposals of mergers, relocations and dissolutions of vic clubs

Let's also pretend that the clubs vote in favour by majority, as stated in the charter.

Tomorrow.

I'd put my house on it that overwhelming majority of fans will, snub the game or follow another league. Unless said relocation is within practical distance, like the same state.

Suppose it comes down to how one defines die hard.

Maybe… in the beginning and how good the other League is.

If a new League is created and there is more money to poach the best players in the land. Gradually more will follow.

Yes there are some die hards.

In the 70’s my next door neighbor who hated the VFL and only watched VFA. He said he supported St.Kilda, so that could say a deal

 

[terrybull]

No probably not, because it is not the Collingwood that I support.
I think the same for the Swans supporters in Melbourne. If they chose not follow the AFL they probably gone to support some local club. Who knows?

 

[Carringbush2010]

Maybe… in the beginning and how good the other League is.

If a new League is created and there is more money to poach the best players in the land. Gradually more will follow.

Yes there are some die hards.

In the 70’s my next door neighbor who hated the VFL and only watched VFA. He said he supported St.Kilda, so that could say a deal

Well I did put up the scenario about now.

As for the breakaway vfl analogy, we need to consider that the breakaway clubs were already very well established at the time, apart from the Pies which was just 5 yo at the vfl's inception.

I will concede that now, the 'old die hards' might be diminishing somewhat, as a simple example maybe anyone over 40 odd.

Even then clubs are beholden to their members and league are averse to possibly losing both members and fans of such numbers now. Even north has 50k members.

So as of now, I don't think there'd be many in favour of their club merging, relocating or dissolving.

 

[The Casey Cat]

Better

Strengthened Brisbane and reduced the number of teams in the over saturated Melbourne market

Brisbane getting stronger and Melbourne losing a side is fine but where it's not so great is not enough people care for Gold Coast or GWS and too many good young players are wanting to leave them. Had they gone to Tassie I'd be happier with it.

 

[Rob]

Brisbane getting stronger and Melbourne losing a side is fine but where it's not so great is not enough people care for Gold Coast or GWS and too many good young players are wanting to leave them. Had they gone to Tassie I'd be happier with it.

WTF does GWS and the Suns have to do with Fitzroy?

 

[peetoo]

25 yers later and the whole league financially much stronger, top class stadia in every capital and some still peddling the pre merger twaddle

Go figure

 

[terrybull]

My guess is that it would have been eventually something like the Fitzroy-Canberra Football Club (trading as the "Canberra Lions") and wearing in Canberra what is pretty much the Brisbane Lions jumper (with blue shorts!) and the famous FFC logo on the breast of the jumper.

Maybe would have still have worn the FFC jumper in Melbourne with the Fitzroy lion on the breast. And the word "canberra" on the other breast.

Under those conditions I certainly would have supported the 'Canberra Lions'.

If Canberra ever get a team in the AFL can’t we just go with this idea?
Even if there is just a handful of Fitzroy supporters left, the club will be back with all its history with many missing years from the comp.

Even founder clubs Melbourne, Essendon, St.Kilda, South/Sydney and Geelong have played every season in the VFL/AFL.

I hope to live to see it happen one day.

 

[Papa G]

The Victorian Government takeover and corruption of the AFL came a bit too late for poor old Fitzroy. Imagine if the shit show that is AFLW came along 25 years ago. Fitzroy would have been a powerhouse.

 

[Roylion]

If Canberra ever get a team in the AFL can’t we just go with this idea?
Even if there is just a handful of Fitzroy supporters left, the club will be back with all its history with many missing years from the comp.

The Fitzroy Football Club might not agree. They're quite ensconced in the VAFA these days.

140 years old this coming September.

www.fitzroyfc.com.au

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Slightly OT.

How awesome was Fitzroy’s theme song.

The Brisbane Lions’ one which resulted from the merger is quite good, but the original Roy’s one was one of the best.

Any song which includes the words "lose", "die" and "defeat" is a bit of a downer IMO. The Bulldogs made the right decision to get rid of "lose" from their song.

 

[CrowToon]

Big who cares? My family all actually supported Fitzroy and that was a sad day for them. But uh, times change and things progress. The fact that something has existed for a long time doesn't mean it is for the best or worthy to carry forever. There are a couple of other suburban clubs who could go the way of University for the benefit of the collective.

Yes I understand those who are older will bemoan the death of Fitzroy but what has their absence actually cost the league as a whole? Nuffin. Most of their fans would've followed the Lions or picked another team a suburb over. Not a big deal.

The only convincing argument that anything was truly lost was if the competition was still the VFL in name rather than the illusion of a national competition we have now. There is no logical argument that a missing suburb of Melbourne costs the national game anything. You can make the argument for capital cities of other states or high-growth corridors but a goddamn suburb surrounded by a bunch of other clubs within spitting distance? Give us a spell.

Watching the videos of the final matches fills me with joy to know that this fate may await other clubs in the future as the competition becomes even more cut throat. Can't wait.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

I always wonder is it better to re-locate like Swans by relucatant choice and still have a Bloods culture and club song and colours etc.
If you a Footscray or Fitzroy in real trouble in mid 80's would it be better to keep all your own entity and join the VFA with likes of Port Melbourne or become the Footscray Lions or Fizroy Bulldogs in the AFL? or relocate and become the Sunsine Coast Lions etc.

I made a poll on this once. People overwhelmingly didn't want a merger.

VIC fans - merge, relocate or relegate?

Victorian fans - suppose your club had to either merge with another Victorian team, relocate to a different state or get sent down to the VFL, which would be the least worst option in your opinion? Which two factors do you value most between an undiluted club identity, being able to go to games...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[footyfan1978]

I made a poll on this once. People overwhelmingly didn't want a merger.

VIC fans - merge, relocate or relegate?

Victorian fans - suppose your club had to either merge with another Victorian team, relocate to a different state or get sent down to the VFL, which would be the least worst option in your opinion? Which two factors do you value most between an undiluted club identity, being able to go to games...

www.bigfooty.com

Certainly means most fans prefer re-location like South Melbourne did than a merger. One thing the poll of 40 years after South issues, does not answer is whether South fans at time would prefer to remain at Lake Side Oval in South Melbourne or leave the VFL to play in the VFA with the likes of Port Melbourne, Williamstown and Sandringham etc.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Certainly means most fans prefer re-location like South Melbourne did than a merger. One thing the poll of 40 years after South issues, does not answer is whether South fans at time would prefer to remain at Lake Side Oval in South Melbourne or leave the VFL to play in the VFA with the likes of Port Melbourne, Williamstown and Sandringham etc.

Pretty moot point now, but it shows that identity is what people here value above all, more than being able to go to games.

 

[Mjs94]

There are a few books on what went wrong with the Lions. Would anyone here be able to advise which is the best/most accurate?

 

[footyfan1978]

Pretty moot point now, but it shows that identity is what people here value above all, more than being able to go to games.

Yes, I assume by that you'd think only supporters of South Melbourne that lived locally would bave valued location over identity and been very upset their club moved to Sydney so they could no longer attend themselves. If you followed South Melbourne and you did not live close and only attend four or five time a year, you could possibly deal with the re-location to Sydney easier. But for those that lived locally I actually would think a lot of them would have a prefernce to be a VFA club instead as least they could attend their local club still. But if South had gone to the VFA I assume their best players all transfer to another club in VFL at the time to still be in the premier league. The Tonly Morwood's, Barry Round, Rod Carter, Bernie Evans, Rhys-Jones, Barry Mitchell and Mark Bayes types probably transfer to clubs like Carlton, Fitzroy, North etc etc to remain in the same league. Maybe a veteran in his last couple of years is happy to finish up a South Melbourne player in the VFA. Maybe a Ricky Quade type.

 

[terrybull]

The Fitzroy Football Club might not agree. They're quite ensconced in the VAFA these days.

140 years old this coming September.

www.fitzroyfc.com.au

They could do both

Biggest hurdle would be Brisbane. They would probably not want to just abandoned their established trademark of their connection with Fitzroy. They abolished nearly all of Bears identity to try to make Brisbane Lions a success.

 

[r_boy]

Worse off.

Fitzroy would have a great brand and a solid following in the trendy inner suburbs these days.

Tremendous cultural heritage spat on by the AFL.

 

[Kappa]

Long term the AFL had to lose some Melbourne teams. The transition to a national competition made it inevitable… south Melbourne and Fitzroy were the unlucky ones, but long term it was the right choice.

 

[Rob]

I made a poll on this once. People overwhelmingly didn't want a merger.

VIC fans - merge, relocate or relegate?

Victorian fans - suppose your club had to either merge with another Victorian team, relocate to a different state or get sent down to the VFL, which would be the least worst option in your opinion? Which two factors do you value most between an undiluted club identity, being able to go to games...

www.bigfooty.com

Funny the number of people that said they'd prefer to be relegated. Fitzroy have effectively been relegated (albeit to a few levels lower than the AFL), and hardly anyone shows up.

But Fitzroy's biggest error was timing. They were bad on field, and consequently fell into deep financial shit at simply the wrong time. If it had of been 10 years later the league had the resources to prop them up. It could easily have been North in that position, but North came good in the Carey era and the fans gained kept them going.

 

[Roylion]

They could do both

It'd be nice, but I think somewhat unrealistic.

Biggest hurdle would be Brisbane. They would probably not want to just abandoned their established trademark of their connection with Fitzroy. They abolished nearly all of Bears identity to try to make Brisbane Lions a success.

And the AFL own the IP associated with the Brisbane Lions.

What the AFL don't own is the FFC logo. That is trademarked by the Fitzroy Football Club.

 

[Leon]

There are a few books on what went wrong with the Lions. Would anyone here be able to advise which is the best/most accurate?

I read Dyson Hore-Lacy (last Fitzroy president) book a while ago - simply called “Fitzroy”


It‘s quite good.


The Merger by William Westerman - haven’t read it, but others have told me it’s good.


The Brisbane Lions did a pretty good doco on it in the last few years as well, I think it’s on YouTube.

 

[footyfan1978]

I read Dyson Hore-Lacy (last Fitzroy president) book a while ago - simply called “Fitzroy”


It‘s quite good.


The Merger by William Westerman - haven’t read it, but others have told me it’s good.


The Brisbane Lions did a pretty good doco on it in the last few years as well, I think it’s on YouTube.

I heard today that in the 70's at some point, Fitzroy was ok financially. Do not know if true but very interesting and makes me wonder how it went so pear shaped in early 80's. Might have to read a book on it.

 

[Leon]

Some questions for Roylion and any other Fitzroy and Lions fans.


1. Do you think that the Brisbane Lions have done/are doing enough to maintain and promote the heritage and history of Fitzroy?


2. In 1996, there were other merger options being put to Fitzroy other than Brisbane and North Melbourne.

Whilst obviously being preferable for Fitzroy to continue in its own right in the AFL, if you had the time again and had to choose a merger option, would you choose Brisbane or another club’s proposal?


3. Someone in the doco I mentioned above said - might have been Kevin Murray - that the Lions winning the flag in 2001 (and then three-peating) helped heal the wound of the merger for some Fitzroy supporters.

Was that your experience, or do you still feel angry about what happened?


4. The actions of the AFL are well documented. Clearly they could and should have done more to help Fitzroy. However do you hold any resentment towards anyone at the club at the time for anything they did, or for not doing enough?

 

[Leon]

I heard today that in the 70's at some point, Fitzroy was ok financially. Do not know if true but very interesting and makes me wonder how it went so pear shaped in early 80's. Might have to read a book on it.

Another interesting thing is that in the early years of the VFL, Fitzroy were a powerhouse.

They won lots of premierships and were quite successful.

Geographically, they were wedged between Collingwood and Carlton - two clubs that started in the VFL along with Fitzroy and who both went on to have huge supporter bases whilst Fitzroy did not, despite their early successes.