Analysis 2017 List Management Discussion - Part 3

[Nori]

We are further down the development as we have brought in a great number of talented kids BUT we are now younger and have less talented experienced players to carry us through. Even our "recruits" in Kennedy and Lang are inexperienced. Gibbs & Doc didn't miss a game last year as did Murphy Simmo & Kruezer. That had career best years.

It's not a bad thing but I just expect a bit of a correction whilst the kids develop enough to take over. Can't expect a group of 12-15 kids with an average of less than 20 games to consistently win games of football It was a 3 year "List Rebuild" which has just finished. It now takes time to develop and grow. Can't change that.

Polson Dow O'Brien Kerr McKay will get a lot of games this year and have four games between them.

Biggest total games between Williamson Macreadie Cuningham Fisher is 17.

We are in a great spot and I expect big things in years to come but I believe we are at least a year away from consistent game winning football.

I can’t fault your logic, but the reality is not all the kids will play in the same side. They will come in and out as part of their development and load managment.

The heavy lifting will be done by the more mature bodies.

I’m pretty certain they will win significantLy more games in 2018 than this year because they have a more balanced list.

 

[BlueRenaissance]

Just getting the young bodies fully prepared is the work of 2-3 seasons - and pre-seasons. You want the young players getting a few games in those first couple of years, both for their development and so it can be seen if they've got the goods, but very few players are physically ready to play out a full AFL season from age 18. Never mind the mental side.

+1

It's why I really want to see rotations in 2018 which will see through those youngsters in their first/second year. We are trying to pick a 22 when that might not be the right approach. I don't see Macreadie/Williamson much behind other defenders and don't mind the idea of them playing on a rotation basis to keep all players fresh. Yes, less than the other first choice players but nothing wrong with 6-8 games in a season.

In the midfield, I like all of Fisher, SPS, Pickett, Cuningham equally so don't mind a rotation of one of them in and out over the season. Same with Dow and O Brien.

A bit like Gridiron with attack and defence teams, I see the future of AFL where you need 30 players rotating through due to the running/injuries/hardness of the game. It's rotations that will see a side fresh come September.

 

[Arr0w]

I was refering to your point 2. I really don’t think we disagree in any meaningful way.

You perhaps will be somewhat less disappointed than me if they don’t win significantly more games in 2018 as long as they are playing the kids. That’s all I’ve got.

 

[ODNBlue]

Except Earl...that guy was a douche.

That's not really fair...






Douches are useful.

 

[Soapy V]

I can’t fault your logic, but the reality is not all the kids will play in the same side. They will come in and out as part of their development and load managment.

The heavy lifting will be done by the more mature bodies.

I’m pretty certain they will win significantLy more games in 2018 than this year because they have a more balanced list.

That's where we disagree. List is way unbalanced at the moment (in 2-3 years it will be awesome). Very young, very immature and very inexperienced. On top of that our senior players won't be any better. Lost Gibbs & Doc (huge), Simmo now 34, Murphy 32, Kruezer in his prime but will he have another injury free year and they are supported by Curnow (gun) ASOS (good defender) then it's Wright Rowe Thomas Casboult Lobbe. Not exactly a bunch of matchwinners and there is not many of them.

The kids need games in 2018 and Bolton will play them plus he doesn't really have many options. Do you expect O'Shea Mullett & Shaw to make a significant difference?

 

[LanceRomance]

Dipper

Hawks were challenging for flags in that time he was in the reserves

 

[Arr0w]

Hawks were challenging for flags in that time he was in the reserves

Do you really think he is the only one? Many more that did a long stint in the magoos

 

[Nori]

Bolt’s is not going to play kids in the same way that he did for the Port game. That doesn’t benefit anyone.

Plenty of talented 3rd years and over to oick up the slack.

 

[Doro]

Yet some here would have you believe that unless 10/11 wins are achieved in 2018 the club will be spooked into sacking him .
The club finally decided to do things right and went all in with a Silvagni/Bolton rebuild and there has not been one sign of any wavering from our stated course .
It will take and be given the time needed to see it through to fruition , the supporters just need to hold their nerve , be patient and then enjoy a sustained period of serious challenge and hopefully the spoils of success .

I get the impression the Rogers faction will continue banging away at the doomsday button at every given opportunity. Does the boogie man still exist or can we continue with a long term growth strategy?

 

[ferrisb]

Yes.. And who knows what our more erratic board members or coterie groups will do if we keep losing.

Winning is now as important to list management as it is keeping the admin together

Wait, someone is preaching to HARKER about the risks of our heretofore dysfunctional board?

 

[HARKER]

And many of the great sides had players in the seconds honing their craft before being debuted, everyone is in a hurry

SOS waits for no man.............or at least not for ones he didn't select.

It's not just a matter for clubs to be patient, but you're asking the players to be patient also.
We just got Kennedy & Lang cheap because we could give them opportunities that their previous clubs would not have afforded them.

Have to quote this again; Let someone play VFL long enough and they become VFL players.
I think Macreadie is better than that, as does the CFC obviously, having given him an extension on his contract, but the fire can go out playing in the 2nds whilst your mates are making the money playing seniors.

Forget citing Doull as an example. Those days are over.

 

[Red Bull]

I get the impression the Rogers faction will continue banging away at the doomsday button at every given opportunity. Does the boogie man still exist or can we continue with a long term growth strategy?

Most are on board the rebuild
Some are impatient
A few can't let go
Takes all sorts in a footy club ...

 

[Blue and Silver]

All this talk of talent and the greatness of SoS but I feel he has missed a trick. I don't see any Bitcoin at Carlton.

If he had of spotted Bitcoin in January, we could have been buying Collingwood by now and deregistering them.

Absolutely artificial speculative bubble.

Is going to ruin a lot of silly people

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

 

[Arr0w]

SOS waits for no man.............or at least not for ones he didn't select.

It's not just a matter for clubs to be patient, but you're asking the players to be patient also.
We just got Kennedy & Lang cheap because we could give them opportunities that their previous clubs would not have afforded them.

Have to quote this again; Let someone play VFL long enough and they become VFL players.
I think Macreadie is better than that, as does the CFC obviously, having given him an extension on his contract, but the fire can go out playing in the 2nds whilst your mates are making the money playing seniors.

Forget citing Doull as an example. Those days are over.

Have no doubt, society is in a hurry these days.

If players believe they can get senior games elsewhere they will. The ones that chose to leave, mostly wanted to taste finals.

Bolts is not stupid, they will all get a taste at senior level if they deserve it

 

[HARKER]

I get the impression the Rogers faction will continue banging away at the doomsday button at every given opportunity. Does the boogie man still exist or can we continue with a long term growth strategy?

I'm sorry for you if that's all you see and all you have to revert back to is some childish term to seemingly mock some that don't fly the flag at every call.
All I was alluding to is that the club may not be keen to finish last in order to claim another #1 in next years draft, as there may be far-reaching consequences if we were to do so.

That's OK. Let's just carry on with the "In SOS we trust" "In Bolton we trust" and is it too early for a "In Liddle we trust?"
Now that's childish.........but carry on.

 

[Arr0w]

I'm sorry for you if that's all you see and all you have to revert back to is some childish term to seemingly mock some that don't fly the flag at every call.
All I was alluding to is that the club may not be keen to finish last in order to claim another #1 in next years draft, as there may be far-reaching consequences if we were to do so.

That's OK. Let's just carry on with the "In SOS we trust" "In Bolton we trust" and is it too early for a "In Liddle we trust?"
Now that's childish.........but carry on.

Harker, do you believe the club is in better shape, over the last 2 years, than the decade prior?

 

[LanceRomance]

Harker, do you believe the club is in better shape, over the last 2 years, than the decade prior?

You seem to think that the years prior to that don't add up or don't matter.

They tally up.

4 years straight of bottom finishes and you think a 5th will be acceptable?

How does the bottom line look? Will the average punter want to turn up to games? How will we convince players of the game plan? And sponsors to stick around?

 

[Doro]

I'm sorry for you if that's all you see and all you have to revert back to is some childish term to seemingly mock some that don't fly the flag at every call.
All I was alluding to is that the club may not be keen to finish last in order to claim another #1 in next years draft, as there may be far-reaching consequences if we were to do so.

That's OK. Let's just carry on with the "In SOS we trust" "In Bolton we trust" and is it too early for a "In Liddle we trust?"
Now that's childish.........but carry on.

What I've seen is the turnaround in our club since MLG took the reins. I'm not interested in fan boy support I'd rather look at the evidence. Sticks- club legend, really poor evidence as prez. Swann, likewise. Rogers- as bad as it gets. Bolton we get to see, hear and view the sides progress. SOS has done a great job with the list from many outside views, not just ours. The reactive incompetent board changed hands half way during 2014, exactly the same time our clubs direction did. You won't accept this though, because Shane was a lovely fella.

 

[Arr0w]

You seem to think that the years prior to that don't add up or don't matter.

They tally up.

4 years straight of bottom finishes and you think a 5th will be acceptable?

How does the bottom line look? Will the average punter want to turn up to games? How will we convince players of the game plan? And sponsors to stick around?

Again you base it on short term results. Correct me if I am wrong, has SOS and Bolts been at the club for the last 2 years or 4? If you or anyone else can't see that we are headed in the right direction, perhaps you come back in a couple of years when we achieve an "expected" win/loss ratio that satisfies the ego

 

[BlueRenaissance]

That's OK. Let's just carry on with the "In SOS we trust" "In Bolton we trust" and is it too early for a "In Liddle we trust?"
Now that's childish.........but carry on.

C'mon Harker, it's like being dumped twice by your spouse and then getting gunshy. You can either give up and mock the next opportunity that comes along or get back on the horse and put yourself out there. Yes, there is risk...but the pay off could be huge. You choose man, it's either slippers, pickled herrings and the newspaper, or alternatively, it's bend over and I'll show you a magic trick!

Embrace this new opportunity to stick it in again and enjoy the feeling.

 

[1981]

Has BenSos been drafted yet?

 

[My name geoff]

This is our best lineup age demographic wise..

Plowman(23) Jones(27) Byrne(23)
O'Shea(25) Marchbank(21) Shaw(25)
Mullett(25) Cripps(23) Cuningham(21)
Pickett(21) Casboult(27) Garlett(21)
Wright(27) Curnow(21) Kruezer(28)

Lobbe(28) Murphy(30) Kennedy(21)

Ed(28) Kerridge(24) Lamb(25) Lang(22)

Every player aged between 21 and 30 at the start of next season. Doesn't look too bad if we have this as the foundation of the side. Puts us in the position where we don't 'have' to play youngsters who aren't ready.

Rotate SPS, Silvagni, Weitering, Williamson, Simpson, Fisher, McKay, Dow, O'Brien, Polson, Macreadie, Kerr and there is a solid team emerging.

 

[LanceRomance]

Again you base it on short term results. Correct me if I am wrong, has SOS and Bolts been at the club for the last 2 years or 4? If you or anyone else can't see that we are headed in the right direction, perhaps you come back in a couple of years when we achieve an "expected" win/loss ratio that satisfies the ego

4 years is not short term... It is medium term.

 

[Gethelred]

It's like, I go to cricket training and the whole place takes what I was saying and perverts it into the most strawmannish version of my argument.

I'm not advocating a change of coach, I'm not even suggesting that, in the event of next year being disappointing - another bottom 4 finish, and signs of disharmony between the coaching and the players - we should look at new options.

I suppose my objection truly is that, very simply, why shouldn't I expect better?

Over the last few years, we've had to deal with players who, all due respect to their hard work, should never have received the call up to play AFL. We've had to build sides made of what remained of our list due to injury, after realising that half the list was those kinds of players. And we've had to try to win games of footy.

If we had SPS instead of Boekhurst, Cuningham instead of Tutt - hell, even Kerridge instead of Bell - we'd have selected them first, regardless of their youth or lack of match fitness, because their output would and will always be better.

Now, we have a full team of AFL level players, when we won games of football with teams of battlers, and you're telling me not to expect better?

This is my issue, really. If we see the kind of mental resilience next year we saw this year, if we see improved ball movement of the kind we saw for the first half of the year in the VFL in the ones, and if we don't suffer injuries like crazy, we have every right to expect the team to do well with a weak draw.

I guess it just bothers me to have a number of people who when looking at the age of the list don't see what I see. I don't see a lack of consistency; I see kids looking to take the steering wheel for the first time. I don't see a lack of fitness or size, I see a reckless willingness to throw themselves at the ball. And I don't, do not, see men who are willing to lose more than half the games they wil play.

I'm willing to be let down, in pursuit of the dream of better days.

 

[Arr0w]

4 years is not short term... It is medium term.

You can continue to avoid the facts, but Bolts and SOS are responsible for what has transpired over the last 2 years, not 4.
Our coach, recruitment and development were poor, prior to that. If you can't acknowledge, that we are on the right path, no one here will ever change your mind