Analysis 2018 List Management discussion Pt 2
- Thread starter Jeremias
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Also, I still get mad about Giles and, in particular, McInnes. Seriously, what the actual *?
Big footy could've done a better job recruiting for us.
Wasn't sold on McInnes, but thought Giles would be a very good player, unfortunately injury killed his career
thylacine60
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Injury killed both careers.
Johnny James
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- Jun 25, 2014
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That will teach him.Rischitelli already had a tour of our facilities and turned us down.
He's gone ******* know where after knocking us back.
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Jimmae
Brownlow Medallist
Giles couldn't kick on the run (plus injuries), and McInnes never grew his game.
HalAlaric
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Why do you say that? Both have been in leadership roles for their respective clubs for a number of years
I’m thinking the same. They say he’s the best mid and we need them in spades
- Oct 4, 2015
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It's such a shame that ASOS is so injury prone. He is a decent footballer and would have been very handy had he been able to get on the park. I don't like Jones as FB. Not one bit. All of a sudden, we find ourselves down on experienced kpds.
I don't like Weitering as the fb. Not keen on Marchbank playing that role either. MacReadie is not ready (no pun intended). Rowe should be getting delisted, he is done. Trouble is, we'll most likely keep him for the reasons I've mentioned.
Having Rowe and Jones back there is a nightmare. The big issue is imo, that all three of Jones, Weitering and Marchbank thrive on playing the loose interceptor type role in the backline. Jones needs to be told to stay on his man at all times. We don't need 3 interceptors. We're getting killed by him giving his opponents so much space. Hopefully this is where Docherty's inclusion helps.
Priorities for us should be:
1:
Midfielders. Plain and simple, we need quality midfielders and you can never have too many. Right now obviously we have Cripps as an elite mid with Dow potentially getting there. Fisher will be a B+ to A grader. SPS has talent but hasn't inspired much confidence yet. Jury's still out on how good he'll be. LOB too early to make a call on him, like some parts of his game, but need to see more of him at AFL level. Kennedy is another that's hard to gauge at this stage.
Experienced mids we are in big trouble. Ed is a goer but not going to set the world on fire, Graham and Kerridge same. Murphy and Daisy are looking past it.
2:
Medium and small forwards. Lamb, Wright, Garlett, Pickett and JSOS. Yep those are our regulars that play there. Pickett is the only one with some potential to make it imo. I like the idea of giving Cuningham a go there next year. But there really aren't many options for us there. LeBois is hanging on a thread just to remain on the list.
3:
Small defenders. Simmo can't play forever. Who do we have? Byrne arguably Doc (though I'd class him more as a medium defender). There's no wonder we are getting killed both i50 and d50 stoppages. Our midfield lacks class and we lack quality small defenders and forwards. Seriously need to address our lack of small defenders.
Make no mistake, it will take us another 3 years to fix all of these issues. There are so many gaping holes in our list at the moment. A better midfield will mitigate the exposure of our weaknesses up forward and down back.
Let's just say we end up getting pick #19. Then I think we absolutely must chase Jake Lloyd from Sydney. Offer up the Crows 2nd (around pick #27) for him, it should get the job done. Get LeCras with one of our late picks or even ideally as an unrestricted free agent.
Next year we slot Lloyd, Willo and Doc into our back line:
Docherty Jones Simmo
Weitering
Lloyd Marchbank Willo
This should be our back line structure next year imo. With Jones under strict instructions to stick to his man unless it's obvious to peel off. We play a 7 man defence to mitigate the opposition's scoring power. Weitering solely as an interceptor. That should really free the pressure from him and release him to show us what he's got.
Take #19 and #24 to the draft and pick the best midfielders available.
Options at #19 could be: Sparrow, English, Collier-Dawkins (maybe a bit of a reach there though, likely to go earlier)
Options at #24 could be: Butters, O'Halloran, Valente
Next year's mid crop:
Cripps, Ed, Murphy, Dow, SPS, LOB, Fisher, pick #19, pick #24
Next year's mids:
Fisher Cripps Dow
Kreuzer Murphy Ed
Pick #1 for me has been Rankine. Next in line for me is Walsh at this stage. I've just had it in my mind that adding Rankine to our forward line would do us wonders. He is electric and will be a game changer. Would love to see LeCras in our forward line for the next 2 years too in an on field coaching role with him then moving into a full coaching position afterwards.
Next year's forward line structure:
Rankine Charlie
LeCras McKay Pickett
Very young, but also very exciting and LeCras there to steady them. Rankine and Charlie are exceptional talents would be really exciting to see them play alongside each other giving opposition splitting headaches for years to come.
I/C (from): SPS, LOB, Kennedy, Plowman, Cuningham, TDK, #19 and #24 picks.
Next year should be an expected year of pain once again unfortunately. But I'd like the theme of it to be PLAY THE KIDS. No more of this O'Shea, Mullett, Casboult, Daisy, Rowe, Lamb and Wright getting games. Let those types soak it up in the VFL they offer us NOTHING at AFL level anyway. Let them be the backup in case of injury. The kids don't need guidance from them at all.
Sure we'll get battered from pillar to post, but at least we'll be seeing a solid chunk of our future out there.
End of 2019 we chase Shiel with everything we can. GWS have a lot of work to do. Lobb, Coniglio, Tomlinson, Kelly, Shiel, Hopper and Himmelberg all out of contract end of 2019. If we make a ridiculous front ended offer for Shiel they will not be able to match.
I reckon it will be time to shop around our first pick too. Should be top 3 pick. Players we could chase:
Cerra, Josh Kelly, Bont and Treloar.
Obviously Bont and Treloar highly unlikely to want to leave. But Cerra and Kelly we have a strong chance. Kelly's the better player at this stage, but Cerra is more realistic.
Imagine adding Shiel and Cerra to our list end of 2019. Would be a huge boost and would more than cover the loss of Murphy and eventually Ed. Definitely need to get one of them, if not, Kelly.
I don't like Weitering as the fb. Not keen on Marchbank playing that role either. MacReadie is not ready (no pun intended). Rowe should be getting delisted, he is done. Trouble is, we'll most likely keep him for the reasons I've mentioned.
Having Rowe and Jones back there is a nightmare. The big issue is imo, that all three of Jones, Weitering and Marchbank thrive on playing the loose interceptor type role in the backline. Jones needs to be told to stay on his man at all times. We don't need 3 interceptors. We're getting killed by him giving his opponents so much space. Hopefully this is where Docherty's inclusion helps.
Priorities for us should be:
1:
Midfielders. Plain and simple, we need quality midfielders and you can never have too many. Right now obviously we have Cripps as an elite mid with Dow potentially getting there. Fisher will be a B+ to A grader. SPS has talent but hasn't inspired much confidence yet. Jury's still out on how good he'll be. LOB too early to make a call on him, like some parts of his game, but need to see more of him at AFL level. Kennedy is another that's hard to gauge at this stage.
Experienced mids we are in big trouble. Ed is a goer but not going to set the world on fire, Graham and Kerridge same. Murphy and Daisy are looking past it.
2:
Medium and small forwards. Lamb, Wright, Garlett, Pickett and JSOS. Yep those are our regulars that play there. Pickett is the only one with some potential to make it imo. I like the idea of giving Cuningham a go there next year. But there really aren't many options for us there. LeBois is hanging on a thread just to remain on the list.
3:
Small defenders. Simmo can't play forever. Who do we have? Byrne arguably Doc (though I'd class him more as a medium defender). There's no wonder we are getting killed both i50 and d50 stoppages. Our midfield lacks class and we lack quality small defenders and forwards. Seriously need to address our lack of small defenders.
Make no mistake, it will take us another 3 years to fix all of these issues. There are so many gaping holes in our list at the moment. A better midfield will mitigate the exposure of our weaknesses up forward and down back.
Let's just say we end up getting pick #19. Then I think we absolutely must chase Jake Lloyd from Sydney. Offer up the Crows 2nd (around pick #27) for him, it should get the job done. Get LeCras with one of our late picks or even ideally as an unrestricted free agent.
Next year we slot Lloyd, Willo and Doc into our back line:
Docherty Jones Simmo
Weitering
Lloyd Marchbank Willo
This should be our back line structure next year imo. With Jones under strict instructions to stick to his man unless it's obvious to peel off. We play a 7 man defence to mitigate the opposition's scoring power. Weitering solely as an interceptor. That should really free the pressure from him and release him to show us what he's got.
Take #19 and #24 to the draft and pick the best midfielders available.
Options at #19 could be: Sparrow, English, Collier-Dawkins (maybe a bit of a reach there though, likely to go earlier)
Options at #24 could be: Butters, O'Halloran, Valente
Next year's mid crop:
Cripps, Ed, Murphy, Dow, SPS, LOB, Fisher, pick #19, pick #24
Next year's mids:
Fisher Cripps Dow
Kreuzer Murphy Ed
Pick #1 for me has been Rankine. Next in line for me is Walsh at this stage. I've just had it in my mind that adding Rankine to our forward line would do us wonders. He is electric and will be a game changer. Would love to see LeCras in our forward line for the next 2 years too in an on field coaching role with him then moving into a full coaching position afterwards.
Next year's forward line structure:
Rankine Charlie
LeCras McKay Pickett
Very young, but also very exciting and LeCras there to steady them. Rankine and Charlie are exceptional talents would be really exciting to see them play alongside each other giving opposition splitting headaches for years to come.
I/C (from): SPS, LOB, Kennedy, Plowman, Cuningham, TDK, #19 and #24 picks.
Next year should be an expected year of pain once again unfortunately. But I'd like the theme of it to be PLAY THE KIDS. No more of this O'Shea, Mullett, Casboult, Daisy, Rowe, Lamb and Wright getting games. Let those types soak it up in the VFL they offer us NOTHING at AFL level anyway. Let them be the backup in case of injury. The kids don't need guidance from them at all.
Sure we'll get battered from pillar to post, but at least we'll be seeing a solid chunk of our future out there.
End of 2019 we chase Shiel with everything we can. GWS have a lot of work to do. Lobb, Coniglio, Tomlinson, Kelly, Shiel, Hopper and Himmelberg all out of contract end of 2019. If we make a ridiculous front ended offer for Shiel they will not be able to match.
I reckon it will be time to shop around our first pick too. Should be top 3 pick. Players we could chase:
Cerra, Josh Kelly, Bont and Treloar.
Obviously Bont and Treloar highly unlikely to want to leave. But Cerra and Kelly we have a strong chance. Kelly's the better player at this stage, but Cerra is more realistic.
Imagine adding Shiel and Cerra to our list end of 2019. Would be a huge boost and would more than cover the loss of Murphy and eventually Ed. Definitely need to get one of them, if not, Kelly.
- Oct 18, 2008
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How bad will this look if Graham and Rowe get cut.
- Oct 18, 2008
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Very flexible player can play forward, back, wing and ruck. He’s a great leader too.
I remember Giles' strength was his run and carry out of the backline - can't remember any knocks on his kicking. McInnes just wasn't the same after the knee injury. Maybe it's rose-coloured glasses but early on I reckon he looked every bit the player Plowman is and will be. Bloody frustrating.
No so much a case of "if" I think. Just when. Though to b fair to Rowe, he's definitely given plenty of service to the club despite never being a star.
How does this compare to all other lists on the AFL? Would love to know each team's hit rate.
- Oct 18, 2016
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I'll read this after I finish all of Proust.
harrisendblue
Club Legend
Exactly McVeigh would be perfect. Burgoyne would be another you would bring in a heartbeat. Interesting to see what veterans finish up this year.
Blue Runnings
Senior List
From a list perspective I think we just need to stay patient. You can’t underestimate the impact injuries have taken on our side from early on in preseason (including many players who didn’t have a preseason who are struggling to run out the year). Particularly a side that lacks depth. Some of our kids who don’t have some of the experience and bigger bodies other sides have supporting them, are also struggling to run out the year.
From a backline perspective you can’t underestimate the loss of Doc from a ability point of view but more so from his leadership. We need to move on from Rowe and Jones. You can’t rely on ASOS’ body but he is a much smarter footy player with better leadership. Big if, but if we can get him right, him and doc’s leadership in the backline supporting Marchbank (if he can get his body right will be improved next year), weiters, who just needs confidence, and mccreadie who I think will be a player to also get his body right, then the backline looks much improved. We just trade/draft in a player or 2 that will provide us with some line breaking run off half back coupled with Simmo. Our backline will then have a good mix of leadership, mobility and run.
With the midfield another preseason into Dow, O’Brien, Fisher, SPS. Hopefully an uninterrupted preseason for Kennedy and Willo to return as a winger/mid. Add the experience of Murphy (who needs to also stay injury free) and ed. Need to look to bring in some additional run and experience through either trade of free agency maybe a Wallis, Brayshaw but again need to find some quick mids that can break the lines with excellent skills (look around the league at players that have had 2-5 preseasons that may be on the fringe of a stronger club). We need players that know where to run and spread but are willing to run two ways. Success is defined by pressure and effort. Mcveigh is also a fantastic suggestion and will add much needed leadership to our young mids for a year. Also Pickett needs to get fitter and add another string to his bow so that he can have bursts in the midfield to add some additional xfactor. He did this as a junior. Kruezer is the worry for me, gives his all but his body is now failing him. We need to find a successor, while also fast tracking the development of tdk to determine if he will make it (regardless he is a few years away).
Forwardline we need to move away from casboult and Wright. Charlie and Harry and possibly Luko as the key mobile forwards supported by Pickett as the small and trade in some additional smalls and medium sized forwards but with the emphasis on effort and pressure. Dahlhaus would be an excellent experienced player that will give u that effort and can run through the midfield. We need to rotate as many through the midfield as possible. Remembering that interchange numbers will likely reduce, therefore you need to draft and trade accordingly ie mids that can play forward.
I wouldn’t trade the number 1 pick and am torn on luko vs Walsh as we need both types. Leaning more on Luko at this stage as partnering his skill set with that of Charlie’s could be unstoppable, even more so with potential rule changes which will open up the game for leading forwards.
Just need to stay patient, add to the depth of the list with some experience, and hope that the injury bug stays away.
From a backline perspective you can’t underestimate the loss of Doc from a ability point of view but more so from his leadership. We need to move on from Rowe and Jones. You can’t rely on ASOS’ body but he is a much smarter footy player with better leadership. Big if, but if we can get him right, him and doc’s leadership in the backline supporting Marchbank (if he can get his body right will be improved next year), weiters, who just needs confidence, and mccreadie who I think will be a player to also get his body right, then the backline looks much improved. We just trade/draft in a player or 2 that will provide us with some line breaking run off half back coupled with Simmo. Our backline will then have a good mix of leadership, mobility and run.
With the midfield another preseason into Dow, O’Brien, Fisher, SPS. Hopefully an uninterrupted preseason for Kennedy and Willo to return as a winger/mid. Add the experience of Murphy (who needs to also stay injury free) and ed. Need to look to bring in some additional run and experience through either trade of free agency maybe a Wallis, Brayshaw but again need to find some quick mids that can break the lines with excellent skills (look around the league at players that have had 2-5 preseasons that may be on the fringe of a stronger club). We need players that know where to run and spread but are willing to run two ways. Success is defined by pressure and effort. Mcveigh is also a fantastic suggestion and will add much needed leadership to our young mids for a year. Also Pickett needs to get fitter and add another string to his bow so that he can have bursts in the midfield to add some additional xfactor. He did this as a junior. Kruezer is the worry for me, gives his all but his body is now failing him. We need to find a successor, while also fast tracking the development of tdk to determine if he will make it (regardless he is a few years away).
Forwardline we need to move away from casboult and Wright. Charlie and Harry and possibly Luko as the key mobile forwards supported by Pickett as the small and trade in some additional smalls and medium sized forwards but with the emphasis on effort and pressure. Dahlhaus would be an excellent experienced player that will give u that effort and can run through the midfield. We need to rotate as many through the midfield as possible. Remembering that interchange numbers will likely reduce, therefore you need to draft and trade accordingly ie mids that can play forward.
I wouldn’t trade the number 1 pick and am torn on luko vs Walsh as we need both types. Leaning more on Luko at this stage as partnering his skill set with that of Charlie’s could be unstoppable, even more so with potential rule changes which will open up the game for leading forwards.
Just need to stay patient, add to the depth of the list with some experience, and hope that the injury bug stays away.
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Might just have been playing a straight bat to the media. But maybe after the last two weeks Sheil has thought "ohhhhhh maybe I won't request a trade this year.... lets just see how the Blues shape up next year"
Next year is a big big year for us auditioning for FAs and mature aged stars.
Next year is a big big year for us auditioning for FAs and mature aged stars.
I posted this in the board thread but it's more apt in the list management discussion - we took a high risk path in our drafting in order to get value for money. I think the results have been mixed.
it remains to be seen if our medicos have dropped the ball or our list is just unlucky/injury prone. SOS inherited a bankrupt list and had to get creative, so to get value he had to chase injured talent (eg Sumner, Marchbank, Pickett, Kennedy, Smedts, Plowman, Phillips, Lang - ?not sure if Lang has a long injury history. But the risk is they remain injury prone in which case the apparent bargains are no such thing. It has to be said some of these cheapies have been injured a lot of the time since joining Carlton.
it remains to be seen if our medicos have dropped the ball or our list is just unlucky/injury prone. SOS inherited a bankrupt list and had to get creative, so to get value he had to chase injured talent (eg Sumner, Marchbank, Pickett, Kennedy, Smedts, Plowman, Phillips, Lang - ?not sure if Lang has a long injury history. But the risk is they remain injury prone in which case the apparent bargains are no such thing. It has to be said some of these cheapies have been injured a lot of the time since joining Carlton.
- May 1, 2016
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Most of the way through the match, it isn't as if any of us are seeing what we'd like to see. But there are always the small moments that demonstrate a few things.
Watch the first term again, if you can stomach it. For most of the quarter, the team played as a team; we still leaked goals, because we're missing Plowman and Docherty and Weitering - the players we use to organise the back six, each working in each other's absence - but the team played almost with a form of relief. Good to get out there, help each other out. Daisy's goal is exactly this, manifest, as it came from good team play and from creativity.
The game changed when the mature players turned the ball over trying to spark things. Daisy once, Jones twice; both trying to go across goal and turn defense into attack, because that was the way we were coached to play on Friday, to try and win the game, to kick goals and to use the only line of the entire field that resembles itself at full strength (as our midfield and our backline surely don't). Three goals, which changed the fabric of the game.
From there, it was a process by which they beat us as they have the past 2-3 times they have prior; back their defense to hold up against our forwards (a likely proposition, given we aren't high scoring) and then get the ball out to a runner who guns it to the other end of the ground, before kicking to a Membrey, Bruce or Billings, relying on genuinely good one on one forwards to beat their opposition on turnovers. It's how they score, and when they play perfect footy (something they haven't done at all since that night last year where they torched Richmond) they're genuinely impossible to beat, as they're bigger, stronger and you can't tackle them. When their disposal is clean - which it so rarely is - their style is a hard counter to ours, and they've reduced our zone to the state it's been all year even when it worked over the last two seasons.
With regards to effort, I've written a rather lengthy post in the game review thread, go back through my history and have a look. We spend all day chasing tail, and we cannot attack, defend, or retain possession at various times throughout a match.
I suppose I watch because I recognise that even when we lose it's worthwhile to watch a game in which Carlton play. Fitzroy fans, of which my grandfather and my uncle were members, cannot say the same.
harrisendblue
Club Legend
Lucas, Watson, Bootsma & Menzel give me a bucket.
Each day I try to forget those patsy but each time im drawn back in to thinking what if.
Rumour has it Rogers did use bigfooty unfortunately it was the opposition boards and he let slip who he was.
When SOS selected TDK at pick 30 a lot of people were asking why we didnt take a Constable or Worpel being mids however other than Mcartin,Frisch Maybe Ballard not many over that pick have played many games.Whilst TDK hasn’t either he has showed some ability and may just be a very good pick.
carlton2dabone
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I don’t disagree with your description of the first quarter, Bolton said he gave them license to go out and play instinctive footy. One thing I will disagree though is that I don’t view the turnovers that the older players made in the first quarter as happening because they were trying to be attacking. The first turnover by jones with his kick across goal actually came because seconds earlier another of the senior bodies down back fumbled a direct and easiest of handball receives (or maybe kick), which ended up forcing jones to try and switch it off of one step. The other turnovers were even more diabolical because it’s not like the older players were trying to create something with a 50m switch, they were just doing small chips sideways and backwards that achieve nothing but put the next player under pressure.
After that for the rest of the game, the team to me looked very disinterested, just my perspective.
The reason I say this is because it’s one thing to be not fit enough or not skilled enough etc, but I watched in horror as most Carlton players were flatfoot at stoppages, as most Carlton players literally gave up keeping an eye out for where their opposition man was running etc.
One of my biggest pet hates is when a player gives off a handball to a team mate who is only 1m away and under immense pressure with opposition bearing down on him. One of the biggest culprits of this is SPS but there are plenty others that do it as well
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