Analysis 2018 List Management discussion Part 1 (continued in Part 2 - see OP for link)

[The Old Dark Navy's]

A Mickleboy special??

No, a multiple times banned user sitewide.

 

[ESKIE]

Ding Ding Ding, tell him what he's won Johnny

Who was the other alt ?

 

[ESKIE]

No, a multiple times banned user sitewide.

I bloody knew it

 

[Lawrence Angwin]

I wouldn’t have classed him as a great kick.
That’s 2 ticks for the clubman factor trading with Shaw & Lobbe then.

Probably thinking along the line of the "No dickheads policy", and adding an "Only good blokes" clause.
I can see the logic in bringing mature depth in to help fill some holes, even if they are not expecting them to be best 22, if those players are of good character and assist in building a strong culture.


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[Lawrence Angwin]

It's been a bloody tough season ... so I wanted to try to find some new perspective

I figured it might be apt to compare Carlton's list rebuild under Bolton, commencing at the end of 2015, and Melbourne's list rebuild under Roos, commencing at the end of 2013

Both teams had just entered a major rebuild / culture change, following long periods without much success

------

Carlton 2015

Finished: 18th
Finishes preceding 3 years: 13th, 6th, 10th
B&F: Cripps, Murphy, Tuohy
Out: Judd, Carrazzo, Henderson, Bell, Menzel, Yarran, Warnock, Holman
In: Kerridge, Lamb, Phillips, Plowman, Wright
Draft selections: Weitering (1), McKay (10), Curnow (12), Cuningham (23), Silvagni (53) (RD: Glass-McCasker, Gallucci)

Carlton 2016

Finished: 14th
B&F: Docherty, Simpson, Cripps
Out: Walker, Jamison, Everitt, Tuohy, Gowers
In: Smedts, Marchbank, Pickett, Palmer,
Draft selections: Petrevski-Seton (6), Fisher (27), Macreadie (47), Polson (59), Williamson (61), Kerr (65) (RD: LeBois, Silvagni)

Carlton 2017

Finished: 16th
B&F: Murphy, Docherty, Kreuzer
Out: Armfield, Gorringe, Korcheck, Jaksch, Sumner, Gibbs, Buckley, Sheehan, Palmer, Boekhorst, Smedts, White
In: Lobbe, Kennedy, Lang, Mullett, McDaid
Draft selections: Dow (3), O'Brien (10), de Koning (30), Shumacher (70), Garlett (78) (RD: O'Shea, Shaw)

------

Melbourne 2013

Finished: 17th
Finishes preceding 3 years: 16th, 13th, 12th
B&F: Jones, Garland, Terlich
Out: Sylvia, Rodan, Davey, MacDonald, Magner
In: Cross, Vince, Tyson, Michie
Draft selections: Salem (9), Kennedy-Harris (40), Hunt (57) (RD: Harmes, Jetta)

Melbourne 2014

Finished: 17th
B&F: Jones, Tyson, Vince
Out: Frawley, Blease, Strauss, Tapscott, Evans
In: Garlett, Lumumba, Frost
Draft selections: Petracca (2), Brayshaw (3), Neal-Bullen (40), Stretch (F/S 42), McDonald (53) (RD: vanden Berg, White)

Melbourne 2015

Finished: 13th
B&F: Vince, Viney, McDonald
Out: Howe, Toumpas, Fitzpatrick, Cross, Jamar
In: Melksham, Bugg
Draft selections: Oliver (4), Weideman (9), King (42), Hulett (46) (RD: Wagner, Michie, Smith)

-------

Melbourne's first 3 years of list rebuilding / culture changing was no walk in the park.......

In 2016 and 2017, Melbourne finished 11th and 9th, while now in the sixth year of their rebuild, they're looking to play finals (currently 4th)



Discuss..........

Of those draftees in that 3 year period, IMO 10 are in our best 22.
Amazing considering only one player drafted from the previous 5 drafts is currently best 22 (Obviously Cripps)
I remember Dermie saying years ago when he was analysing Carlton's recruiting that we were only getting one draft pick right per year. He then went on to say that you need to draft at least 2 players a year that go on to become best 22 or your talent becomes watered down. I didn't like hearing it at the time, but he was right. However, his estimate of us getting one pick right per year was much kinder than the actual reality.



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[Lawrence Angwin]

Lonzo - Dow

Kuzma - Curnow

Ingram - SPS

Randle - Murphy

Are you suggesting Paddy Dow's father is a dickhead?


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[Blue_Fusion]

That’s a ridiculous comment. Arrow is right about McKay. He was dropped because of some poor efforts. It was an issue at VFL level as well. Needs to work harder both ways.

As for not liking the guy that is BS. Arrow likes him and so do I, a lot, but he does have some things he has to work on.

Not the big issue you seem to have made it

Pfft. I could make a list from Melbourne to Perth of Weitering's poor efforts in his first 3 years. How long till he finally got dropped?

SPS had some really poor efforts during this season but kept getting a game. And look what happened, he's started turning it around in recent weeks.

How about instead of smashing this kid's confidence by keeping him out of the side (especially by playing Kerr who has no business being out there yet), we just give him some games and trust that he'll improve??

It's a big issue when he keeps on bringing up Harry's weaknesses and discredits his contributions...

 

[BlueRenaissance]

I miss the axe guy. Brought us all together. with him gone we are starting to feed on our own!

Oh well. i'm always hungry!

 

[Blue_Fusion]

You haven't worked it out yet have you?

I don't have favourite players or ones i detest, unlike you

As I said, go back through my posts and you will clearly see it.

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...june-3-20pm-mcg.1196818/page-11#post-56354709

Tell me, did you have a go at this poster when he mentioned Harry's workrate?

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...on-thread-viii.1180741/page-307#post-56301580

Two reasons, one - haven't even read that post and two - I haven't seen him constantly bring up his work rate and then go on and discredit his contributions like you did.

I still haven't seen one good reason why Kerr deserved a game ahead of Harry, and no, work rate isn't one of them. Kerr's work rate has given us nothing.

 

[LordLucifer]

(especially by playing Kerr who has no business being out there ever),

 

[ITCHY EYEBALLS]

After reading last 10 pages of this thread..my god they’ve gone to s**t.
So many arrogant wannabe intellects
I note some of the better posters have gone quiet....perhaps they feel the same way as me
90% of you are total flogs

 

[Arr0w]

Two reasons, one - haven't even read that post and two - I haven't seen him constantly bring up his work rate and then go on and discredit his contributions like you did.

I still haven't seen one good reason why Kerr deserved a game ahead of Harry, and no, work rate isn't one of them. Kerr's work rate has given us nothing.

Just so I am clear, are we talking output in terms of goals?

 

[Wickzki]

I miss the axe guy. Brought us all together. with him gone we are starting to feed on our own!

Oh well. i'm always hungry!

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Just so I am clear, are we talking output in terms of goals?

I've already gone over this with you. You know full well that Harry has done more than kick a few Joe goose type goals.

 

[BlueRenaissance]

Blue_Fusion v Arr0w. Reminds me of Jakovich vs Carey but without an inkling of footballing ability!

Keep at it lads! We expect our players to go hard at it...expect nothing less from you guys!

 

[Soapy V]

Just so I am clear, are we talking output in terms of goals?

I’m taking Thylacines advice

 

[Wickzki]

I’m taking Thylacines advice

 

[Arr0w]

I've already gone over this with you. You know full well that Harry has done more than kick a few Joe goose type goals.

Blue, not sure why you are getting so worked up, none of us here pick the side

Harry's skill set is by far, more talented than both Kerr and Levi. But it is more than goals, kicks, marks. He is improving, but needs to get to more contests, yes unfortunately his work rate needs to improve, especially when we don't have the ball

He will be by far a better player than both Kerr and Levi

Not sure how much clearer I can make it. I am not bagging the kid, I am pointing out a deficiency that is vital in the "modern game". Like I have pointed out deficiencies in all players

Cripps - Average kick
Weitering - Slow reflexes
Cuners - Ball watches
Kerr - Needs to stay on his bike, one on one is not his go
Levi - disastrous at ground level
Charlie - Needs to not over commit in a marking contest (gets pushed under the ball too many times)
etc etc

 

[Masqualero]

Are you suggesting Paddy Dow's father is a dickhead?


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Im suggesting that he is proud of his son and could also beat Jordon 1v1

 

[DangerousD]

Especially if they play Richmond

Yet Richmond weren’t expected to win last year and here we are.

 

[Lawrence Angwin]

Im suggesting that he is proud of his son and could also beat Jordon 1v1

Well played Sir


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[Arr0w]

Blue_Fusion v Arr0w. Reminds me of Jakovich vs Carey but without an inkling of footballing ability!

Keep at it lads! We expect our players to go hard at it...expect nothing less from you guys!

Again that would be an opinion

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Blue, not sure why you are getting so worked up, none of us here pick the side

Harry's skill set is by far, more talented than both Kerr and Levi. But it is more than goals, kicks, marks. He is improving, but needs to get to more contests, yes unfortunately his work rate needs to improve, especially when we don't have the ball

He will be by far a better player than both Kerr and Levi

Not sure how much clearer I can make it. I am not bagging the kid, I am pointing out a deficiency that is vital in the "modern game". Like I have pointed out deficiencies in all players

Cripps - Average kick
Weitering - Slow reflexes
Cuners - Ball watches
Kerr - Needs to stay on his bike, one on one is not his go
Levi - disastrous at ground level
Charlie - Needs to not over commit in a marking contest (gets pushed under the ball too many times)
etc etc

That's a far better post.

Harry is still a kid too. Just comes across like you're justifying him being dropped because of his weakness, but other kids out there who have work rate issues as well as skill issues and other weaknesses keep getting selected and no mention of anything. You constantly bring up his poor work rate. We all know it isn't good enough, but he's also done a lot of good things too. My point is and always has been that he deserves to be persisted with and give him a chance to grow since we're doing that with a lot of other kids anyway.

Most posters on here will always support the club, but doesn't mean they can't get frustrated at some decisions they make. Kerr has not shown enough to earn a spot over Harry. Obviously that's my opinion and means nothing when it comes to actual team selection, but I'm not going to change my thoughts on that.

Admittedly, I went too hard at Weiters on the weekend, sometimes people say things like that when they're frustrated. Just like you did yourself when you made a tirade of personal attacks against many posters.

 

[Arr0w]

That's a far better post.

Harry is still a kid too. Just comes across like you're justifying him being dropped because of his weakness, but other kids out there who have work rate issues as well as skill issues and other weaknesses keep getting selected and no mention of anything. You constantly bring up his poor work rate. We all know it isn't good enough, but he's also done a lot of good things too. My point is and always has been that he deserves to be persisted with and give him a chance to grow since we're doing that with a lot of other kids anyway.

Most posters on here will always support the club, but doesn't mean they can't get frustrated at some decisions they make. Kerr has not shown enough to earn a spot over Harry. Obviously that's my opinion and means nothing when it comes to actual team selection, but I'm not going to change my thoughts on that.

Admittedly, I went too hard at Weiters on the weekend, sometimes people say things like that when they're frustrated. Just like you did yourself when you made a tirade of personal attacks against many posters.

It became a tirade when people feigned innocence about not being negative and denying they only come in when we have a poor lose, which we all know was BS. Like every week, the dust settles and you can hear a pin drop

If people struggle to see the positives, that is their prerogative

Anyway time to move on

 

[RoyalParade]

If we look at 1) our list, 2) fit for purpose/needs players (e.g. wines doesn't fit so forget him due to Kennedy/Cripps), and 3) players who we could realistically target (in or out of contract) to fill a specific need.

Here are out rough needs...and we are talking about trade targets without compromising first round picks.
We need a small 'fast' defender
We need 2 mature mids (23-28) to help out depending on cost and not compromising 2018 draft.
We need a small 'fast' froward
We need a fast winger who can kick and who is not intimidated

I'll start the list who we could target (in/out of contract):

Jayden Hunt (small defender). In contract but not playing for Melbourne. Hard and fast, slightly unaccountable but worth the attacking element of his game. We have no defenders going inside 50 anymore and no defenders scoring goals. We lack pace in that part of the ground. Docherty returns but we need two..and we need speed. Guy is not intimidated by anything.

Final word: Yes, he is not Docherty or Laird but he is a decent player who is not getting a game at the Dees.

Dom Tyson (midfielder): Not 100% here as we need fast midfielders, not one paced midfielders. But beggars cant be choosers. Not getting a game at the Dees, Wouldnt cost the earth and we need mature agers in this area. At centre of camp-gate which may explain why out of favour.

Unlikely to come to us
Sloane, Gaff, Wallis, Dalhaus as it doesnt make sense.
Mcgovern's dont fit our profile at all. May as well ask for Dangerfield. List mgmt and 'balance' is a thing!

Anyone got others we could target?

Miles, ellis-yomen, atley, j Lloyd, horlin-smith, Kent, clay smith, Lin jong