Training 2020 Pre-Season

[Crusty Undies]

I’ve always liked Sinclair’s one on one work. Maybe he could play as a lockdown small back?

So a 22 touch a game hbf who can shutdown his direct oppo and also counter with aggressive long and accurate kicking can't get a shot but Sinclair who struggles to get that many touches without having to worry as much about his direct oppo and on a wing gets a nod in the backline now?

 

[Phoenix_9]

Memory is fine & those two okay B&F finishes do not impress me. This is Jimmy’s 9th season on the list & he’s soon to be 27. Players such as Webster being preferred best 22 players is why we’ve been so poor for so long.

He missed 4 games in 2017 and 5 games in 2018 due to injury and still finished 7th and 6th respectively. When fit, Webster has been clearly best 22, in the part of the ground we’ve arguably been the strongest in. He’s shown the ability to stop players (even those significantly taller) and given good drive off half back. Yes, sometimes he bites off more than he should, but he completes his bullet kicks far more often then you’re giving him credit for.

 

[triggering bro]

Yes and no. Yes, if we are to move forward as a list, we need middle of the road players to be overtaken by better options. No, that doesn't happen just because we want it to. No point throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Webster is a good player and there's a decent chance he's in the best 22 for a lot of the year.

I’m not advocating playing inferior players. I’m hoping like hell we have the talent to overtake the mediocre ones. Like I said, if that doesn’t occur, we continue to tread water.

How do you define ‘good player’? By AFL standards I put Webster in the average category. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt & excuse him from poor. But good? Not from me.

 

[triggering bro]

So a 22 touch a game hbf who can shutdown his direct oppo and also counter with aggressive long and accurate kicking can't get a shot but Sinclair who struggles to get that many touches without having to worry as much about his direct oppo and on a wing gets a nod in the backline now?

He isn’t a 22 touch a game HBF. He achieved that in one single year. His second best year is 18 touches a game. He’s a 16.7 touch a game HBF across his career.

FYI Jack Sinclair is a 16.6 touch a game mostly small forward player. Broadly speaking defenders get more possessions than forwards due to the defensive nature of today’s footy. It’s not like Webster is a JJ & oppo coaches are putting defensive forwards on him. He’s given free rein because he has a reputation of not being a damaging disposer like you seem to think. It’s called supporter bias.

I’m not even close to set on Sinclair being used as a small defender. Given he has been training with the backs I’d like to see this experimented with in the practice matches.

 

[triggering bro]

He missed 4 games in 2017 and 5 games in 2018 due to injury and still finished 7th and 6th respectively. When fit, Webster has been clearly best 22, in the part of the ground we’ve arguably been the strongest in. He’s shown the ability to stop players (even those significantly taller) and given good drive off half back. Yes, sometimes he bites off more than he should, but he completes his bullet kicks far more often then you’re giving him credit for.

This argument is getting boringly circular. You & crusty rate him & I don’t. I’m happy to wait & see what plans Ratts has for him going forward.

 

[Mstr Strokesman]

Nope a team rarely drafts in the first round let alone in the top ten based on needs or a specific position. We drafted Coff and Clark because we thought they were the two best. The reality is at the time of drafting them Coff was more Half back then mid but had at the time some exposed form as a mid. In addition Clark had serious production as a mid in his top age year and was regularly getting 25 touches plus the issue at the time was his decision making had become worse.

Also importantly and this often gets missed but most players in Nab League in their bottom age year start out on a flank and then move up into the midfield in their top age year. They do it for various reasons to develop versatility, allow older guys more exposure etc etc. the reality is most guys have played and probably dominated in the midfield at some point in their junior careers.

If I recall, the Coff in his draft year was trialled to be a mid ,but just wasn’t up to it ,so they put him back at half back and he found form again .
No doubt someone will dig up some stats on this
I really think it is wishful thinking that he will play as a mid in his career .Having said that ,i think he will be a very very good rebounding defender .

 

[Mstr Strokesman]

With Long’s move to defence over the pre-season, it got me thinking about how many of our champion defenders over the years started out as forwards.

It seems that the majority of them got their grounding in their early years in attack before swapping ends:

Verdun Howell (Brownlow)
Bob Murray (BnF)
Cowboy Neale (BnF)
Trevor Barker (BnF x 2)
Barry Lawrence (2nd in BnF)
Barry Breen - admittedly later on (3rd BnF)
Sam Fisher (2 x BnF)

All these players ended up being top performers down back.

Perhaps Long has served his apprenticeship up forward and, like the above players, he can apply what he has learned at the other end of the ground, and become a very good backman.

It did seem at times last year that he was allergic to leather, but this may have been because he is more suited to a defensive role.

We will find out soon.

Throw in Danny Frawley at CHF too

 

[plugger66]

Memory is fine & those two okay B&F finishes do not impress me. This is Jimmy’s 9th season on the list & he’s soon to be 27. Players such as Webster being preferred best 22 players is why we’ve been so poor for so long.

I reckon there are other players who have made poor for so long way ahead of Webster. You do not want to get injured on here because people’s memory is pretty short term. Savage certainly needs to be replaced but Webster at his best certainly holds his own. He is behind the pack at the moment because of injury but the March champions eventually get found out. Some may as early as Thursday.

 

[The Jack]

Love to see Webster have an injury free run at it. Unfortunately he’s behind the 8 ball yet again. It’s a shame really, I rate him a lot more than many on here going by some of the posts, but he’s running out of time.

 

[BrutThough]

He missed 4 games in 2017 and 5 games in 2018 due to injury and still finished 7th and 6th respectively. When fit, Webster has been clearly best 22, in the part of the ground we’ve arguably been the strongest in. He’s shown the ability to stop players (even those significantly taller) and given good drive off half back. Yes, sometimes he bites off more than he should, but he completes his bullet kicks far more often then you’re giving him credit for.

And at least 2 games in 2018 he couldn't finish the game due to injury.

 

[Diehard Saint]

There is a notion every year in pre season that we have new found depth. I'm not saying it is not true this time around, but I'll wait and see some games before making judgement on the depth of our list. It's easy to have competition for spots in February. It is quite often a different conversation come April. Again, not saying we don't have improved depth, but we don't yet know.

Surely the mere fact that we have brought in 5 new, best 22 at their previous club players, at least 4 of whom will be in our best 22 means that we have definitely created depth with 4/5 best 22 from last year now no longer automatic inclusions in the senior team? And of course, a hopefully fit and firing Robbo.

And that is not even including players such as King, Bytel who are yet to play and Coffield, Paton, Hind who were not regular players in the seniors but were definitely getting there. If our second tier players this season include those who played seniors last season, I’d say there’s a definite improvement in depth.

Even Abbott gives us depth where we previously had none. Note, I’m not including Byrnes etc from last years draft in the depth as yet. So hopefully, this year’s depth should be a very different story than before.

 

[Saintbloke]

He isn’t a 22 touch a game HBF. He achieved that in one single year. His second best year is 18 touches a game. He’s a 16.7 touch a game HBF across his career.

FYI Jack Sinclair is a 16.6 touch a game mostly small forward player. Broadly speaking defenders get more possessions than forwards due to the defensive nature of today’s footy. It’s not like Webster is a JJ & oppo coaches are putting defensive forwards on him. He’s given free rein because he has a reputation of not being a damaging disposer like you seem to think. It’s called supporter bias.

I’m not even close to set on Sinclair being used as a small defender. Given he has been training with the backs I’d like to see this experimented with in the practice matches.

Some stats don't tell the full story generally speaking. Players can get good stats in many areas, but also of interest to me is how well their opponents do, or what influence their opponent has on an opposition win- and that influence may come in a handful of possessions. I'm hoping to see if some of our players can improve their defensive side- or the work they do off the ball.

 

[Ducky Tie]

Surely the mere fact that we have brought in 5 new, best 22 at their previous club players, at least 4 of whom will be in our best 22 means that we have definitely created depth with 4/5 best 22 from last year now no longer automatic inclusions in the senior team? And of course, a hopefully fit and firing Robbo.

And that is not even including players such as King, Bytel who are yet to play and Coffield, Paton, Hind who were not regular players in the seniors but were definitely getting there. If our second tier players this season include those who played seniors last season, I’d say there’s a definite improvement in depth.

Even Abbott gives us depth where we previously had none. Note, I’m not including Byrnes etc from last years draft in the depth as yet. So hopefully, this year’s depth should be a very different story than before.

The point re recruits is valid, however it could so happen that Steven, Acres, Newnes and Bruce leaving counteracts that somewhat from a depth perspective. Even if we might say that Acres and Newnes wouldn't fit into the best 22 right now, they are still relevant to the depth conversation. On the recruits, I'm confident that Hill, Jones and Howard will be regulars for years, however the jury is very much out on Ryder and Butler. Butler as you say should add depth but we don't know if he will add any more than Kent brought. Ryder is aging and past his best. Will we find the right balance with Marshall? Hopefully. Jury is out.

Re your second point about the young players coming in and improving our depth, that was my original point. We hear the same thing every year about having players X, Y and Z making competition for spots high. Ultimately, we quite often come to round 6 and have the same issues.

I'm not trying to be pessimistic. I'm not even saying we don't have improved depth. We have had a massive off season in terms of players coming and going. We won't know for a little while if that has improved our depth enough to have high levels of competitions for spots.

 

[Crusty Undies]

Surely the mere fact that we have brought in 5 new, best 22 at their previous club players, at least 4 of whom will be in our best 22 means that we have definitely created depth with 4/5 best 22 from last year now no longer automatic inclusions in the senior team? And of course, a hopefully fit and firing Robbo.

And that is not even including players such as King, Bytel who are yet to play and Coffield, Paton, Hind who were not regular players in the seniors but were definitely getting there. If our second tier players this season include those who played seniors last season, I’d say there’s a definite improvement in depth.

Even Abbott gives us depth where we previously had none. Note, I’m not including Byrnes etc from last years draft in the depth as yet. So hopefully, this year’s depth should be a very different story than before.

Not to mention ideally having a slightly less horrific injury run...

 

[Ducky Tie]

I’m not advocating playing inferior players. I’m hoping like hell we have the talent to overtake the mediocre ones. Like I said, if that doesn’t occur, we continue to tread water.

How do you define ‘good player’? By AFL standards I put Webster in the average category. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt & excuse him from poor. But good? Not from me.

He's quite clearly not a poor player. In my book, he's better than average. He is a good lock down and a good rebounder. Not an easy thing to do. There's plenty of small backs in the comp who can run around and rack it up whilst letting their opponent do the same. Conversely, there are several who can lock down but offer minimal offensive output. He does both. What do you expect from someone playing his role to be considered 'good'? All Australian selection? That's the standard for better than good. He's not All Australian level. He's better than average.

 

[joop]

Love to see Webster have an injury free run at it. Unfortunately he’s behind the 8 ball yet again. It’s a shame really, I rate him a lot more than many on here going by some of the posts, but he’s running out of time.

I’m with ya, I rate Webster. Love his courage and attack on the ball/man. If he’s kicking well then he’s very very handy.

 

[Diehard Saint]

The point re recruits is valid, however it could so happen that Steven, Acres, Newnes and Bruce leaving counteracts that somewhat from a depth perspective. Even if we might say that Acres and Newnes wouldn't fit into the best 22 right now, they are still relevant to the depth conversation. On the recruits, I'm confident that Hill, Jones and Howard will be regulars for years, however the jury is very much out on Ryder and Butler. Butler as you say should add depth but we don't know if he will add any more than Kent brought. Ryder is aging and past his best. Will we find the right balance with Marshall? Hopefully. Jury is out.

Re your second point about the young players coming in and improving our depth, that was my original point. We hear the same thing every year about having players X, Y and Z making competition for spots high. Ultimately, we quite often come to round 6 and have the same issues.

I'm not trying to be pessimistic. I'm not even saying we don't have improved depth. We have had a massive off season in terms of players coming and going. We won't know for a little while if that has improved our depth enough to have high levels of competitions for spots.

Embarrassed to admit I forgot about the four we lost but in all honesty probably only Stuv and Bruce were certain starters and then again all dependent on Stuv‘s mental health.

I admit I did word my second point a little clumsily... I do believe that Coff, Paton and Hind have all shown more than enough to be able to hold their own in the 22 at any time if necessary (actually I’m hoping Coff is a regular) but when I mentioned King, Bytel etc what I meant was that I wasn’t even including them in a list talking about depth because as yet they haven’t even played.

I do get your point though because every year previously we have thought our depth had improved, but this year with all the top tier players coming in, I genuinely believe we have.

Guess we’ll soon find out

 

[Ducky Tie]

Embarrassed to admit I forgot about the four we lost but in all honesty probably only Stuv and Bruce were certain starters and then again all dependent on Stuvmental health.

I admit I did word my second point a little clumsily... I do believe that Coff, Paton and Hind have all shown more than enough to be able to hold their own in the 22 at any time if necessary (actually I’m hoping Coff is a regular) but when I mentioned King, Bytel etc what I meant was that I wasn’t even including them in a list talking about depth because as yet they haven’t even played.

I do get your point though because every year previously we have thought our depth had improved, but this year with all the top tier players coming in, I genuinely believe we have.

Guess we’ll soon find out

Bloody hope you’re right mate. Pumped for the season to start.

 

[CaptainRisky]

2.7 clangers per game isnt really that much - had him 175th in the league. Especially considering he is a kick first player and does take the risky kick.

Well there is the problem , if he is anything like me he is bound to make a mess of it

 

[Mikka84]

Billing’s will win the Brownlow this year

 

[CaptainRisky]

Webster hasn’t faired that great in club B&F’s & he has never been talked about as being one the good to better small defenders in the league. If he continues to get a game then we are stuffed because it means we don’t have anybody good enough to replace a very mediocre player. Not a personal attack. We have a number in the 22 who need to be replaced or overtaken by younger players that hopefully have upside.

Another thing to consider is that some say we have great or a lot better depth , maybe true but the problem lies in the fact that we dont have a stand out for our smaller backline players , ATM you can put Patton, Coff, Geary, Webster, DMac, Long, Savage, Clark all in a bucket and draw two players out , None are standouts just yet , Coff and Clark have time on their sides but none of the others are what you call walk up stars . It would be great if One or Two of them were an automatic selections and having the others as depth , As it is now its personal preference when really it shouldnt be like that

 

[CaptainRisky]

Billing’s will win the Brownlow this year

Bookmark it Johnny

 

[Grav]

Billing’s will win the Brownlow this year

Well there goes my tip, I was putting my head on the chopping block & going for Hunter Clark to win this years Brownlow.

 

[Mowman]

Bookmark it Johnny

Where is Johnny ?

 

[Human Person]

Billing’s will win the Brownlow this year

That won't fix his ears.