List Mgmt. 2023 List Management thread

[Snuffaluphagus]

Mod notice after Mr Bob did a lot of annoying work in moving days of posts out of here. As we are heading into offseason, this thread is for 2023 list management only. Getting upset on previous trades can be taken to the vent thread. Lets keep this thread on track in the part of the year it's actually relevant

 

[Joao]

I reckon our B22 is potentially (i.e. in the future some time) good enough or at least very close to.

Just need one or two more players that can separate a close game.

 

[Taylor]

It’s happened so many times thought recent history

... with the caveat that it's almost always in the easiest positions to slot in a physically immature player, like forward pocket, half back flank. A truly unique proposition for a tall player, playing a tall role, to seize the position at a teenager.

Speed and skill can find a place on the field, even if we need to start them behind the ball, even if we need to start them in the forward line and play as the spare near the stoppage out in space.

 

[FreoMatt]

Well I disagree with this but I think I’ve made that clear enough over the season here. Do you think 90 or 95% of the first Fremantle flag winning team is currently in the list? I’m not so convinced. I thi k we need more A graders. At least one, probably two as Walters will be gone soon.
I listened to Xavier Ellis in the HBG podcast last night. I think he’s a good WA antidote to the natural bias we all have when looking at our list.
He said that he thinks the best midfielder on Fremantles future flag team is not yet on their list. Reckons we lack a burst mid with speed out of stoppages.
Nick Rynne asked him to name three teams outside the 8 that could make finals next year - freo were not one of Xavier Ellis three. He’s also stated recently that he would take Sydney list a long way ahead of ours right now. It might be a bit harsh but there’s probably some merit to what he is saying.

To sum it up, I like our list, but I think it’s good not great.
There’s only two ways we can add great players

• trade them in like we did with LJ last year. Obviously expensive and can’t be done too often.
• draft them. clearly top 10 or 15 picks are more likely to become stars but it’s possibly to get quality talent late in the draft. Even if it’s a lower chance.

The more dips you have into the ND, the better chance freo has of grabbing a gem. It might be a small chance but it’s better than no chance.

The issue I have with low list turnover is that you are further reducing the (admittedly small chance) of getting another A grader from the late stages of the draft. I like Hamling for example. But he will probably play all year at peel next year. He might play 3 or 4 AFL games. He will probably be delisted in 2024.
Keeping him probably means we take 2 live picks in the ND instead of 3 because Banfield and Treacy need to be added to the main list and Sharp is also apparently coming to replace Henry.
We will likely end up passing on a pick around 42-45 in that instance, on draft night, in favour of keeping Hamling.
That could easily be a player like Koen Sanchez, Ashton Moir, De Mattia, Clay Hall etc. possibly even Mitch edwards!
they question that needs to be asked is - who is better for the Fremantle list Beth in 2024, and long term. A player such as the ones I listed above, or Joel Hamling?
There is zero percent chance joel hamling solves our lack of A grader problem in the mid-forward area of the ground. There is probably a 5% chance that pick 45 does. But 5% is a lot better than zero.

As I said before though it’s tricky for Hamling because it should have been Corbett, Banfield, Kuek, that could all have been delisted before him but they are all contracted for 2024 (lucky for them) and so Joel is the unlucky one that is sweating on his list spot.

Good post but I just have to point out that Brayshaw is super quick out of stoppages and has great agility to step opponents. We just need him to do it more frequently. But I agree with Ellis apart from Brayshaw, we lack burst in our midfield. (PS Brayshaw ran down Butters in the Port game)


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[apuchar]

Thanks so after the Wilson/Colyer delisting we should have plenty of room for Sharp..?


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Plus Benning.

 

[FreoMatt]

I’m hoping that big bodied “burst” player / speedy midfielder we are missing could be O’Driscoll.
Has all the natural traits, size, speed, defensive running and confidence to grab the ball and go.
He’s shown promise on the wing but I don’t think quite has the pinpoint kicking required long term for that role. If he’s inside more the kicking isn’t as much of an issue and his natural traits and abilities could be utilised a little better.
Could be a missing piece of the puzzle under our noses.


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Please bear with me here but absolute pace is only one factor, you also need that inherent “balance” that comes with a natural footballer. NOD is quick but hasn’t got the balance (agility), he looks like a baby giraffe when he runs around. If you look at somebody like Henry (who isn’t as quick as NOD over 20m), he has that natural balance that comes with natural footballers and allows him to be able to weave his way through traffic in a way NOD can’t. Serong is a classic example of a “balanced” footballer not overly quick but can get away from stoppages. The best example I can think of is Lachie Neale. The first time I saw him play I thought “this guys moves well”…..

For NOD given his traits I think he is built more for an outside runner so love him on the wing, but not ideal for in and around stoppages in the middle


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[MadMundy]

The Draft has no guarantee of knowing whether a player is going to be good or not, that's the whole problem, do we really want to spend another few years relying on a game of chance, potentially setting us back even further?

 

[Docker82]

... with the caveat that it's almost always in the easiest positions to slot in a physically immature player, like forward pocket, half back flank. A truly unique proposition for a tall player, playing a tall role, to seize the position at a teenager.

Speed and skill can find a place on the field, even if we need to start them behind the ball, even if we need to start them in the forward line and play as the spare near the stoppage out in space.

This is all true and why our 18 year old draftees haven’t added much this season.

Tbh though I think those trying to say 18 year olds won’t add much to the list are also those that think more ready to go depth is the most essential think for this list.

I can’t agree with the idea significantly more depth would help us, in fact I think the contrary. It’ll put on salary cap pressure which we saw last year didn’t end well. I find this opinion particularly bizarre when we’re talking about the last 4-5 spots on our list.

I think you’ve got to go into a season with the last 10 or so spots on your list to development players for the future. Now to clarify players like Amiss, Erasmus and Johnson can come from that group and displace best 22 players - that’s healthy list transition. Without healthy list transition for 2-3 years you end up like West Coast or North Melbourne. I don’t think it takes much longer than that. Basically not drafting anyone for a year is a big risk - it’s probably one injury prone drafted away from almost guaranteeing one year of the 2-3 it takes to become sh**e.

 

[Dockeroo]

The Draft has no guarantee of knowing whether a player is going to be good or not, that's the whole problem, do we really want to spend another few years relying on a game of chance, potentially setting us back even further?

You could literally say that about every draft every year. Again - the Gerard neesham approach.
The weakest few players on our list are grossly overrated by this board.
For me there is always room on our list for 4 of the top 60 young players in the country each year regardless of where we are at.

 

[Dockeroo]

This is all true and why our 18 year old draftees haven’t added much this season.

Tbh though I think those trying to say 18 year olds won’t add much to the list are also those that think more ready to go depth is the most essential think for this list.

I can’t agree with the idea significantly more depth would help us, in fact I think the contrary. It’ll put on salary cap pressure which we saw last year didn’t end well. I find this opinion particularly bizarre when we’re talking about the last 4-5 spots on our list.

I think you’ve got to go into a season with the last 10 or so spots on your list to development players for the future. Now to clarify players like Amiss, Erasmus and Johnson can come from that group and displace best 22 players - that’s healthy list transition. Without healthy list transition for 2-3 years you end up like West Coast or North Melbourne.

Exactly right.

 

[Taylor]

This is all true and why our 18 year old draftees haven’t added much this season.

Tbh though I think those trying to say 18 year olds won’t add much to the list are also those that think more ready to go depth is the most essential think for this list.

I can’t agree with the idea significantly more depth would help us, in fact I think the contrary. It’ll put on salary cap pressure which we saw last year didn’t end well. I find this opinion particularly bizarre when we’re talking about the last 4-5 spots on our list.

I think you’ve got to go into a season with the last 10 or so spots on your list to development players for the future. Now to clarify players like Amiss, Erasmus and Johnson can come from that group and displace best 22 players - that’s healthy list transition. Without healthy list transition for 2-3 years you end up like West Coast or North Melbourne.

We shouldn't be afraid to trade out players who are on the fringe, especially if it can find us the speed and skills.

If we had infinite list sizes there would be a lot of big bodied guys who can't run or kick but will win a hard ball, they are the first to go when there is a cap on numbers. The other end of that discussion, if we had a list size of 25, is that the guys with elite speed and skills are retained like they are made of gold.

So if we want to find a balance we trade a player like Will Brodie to try and get the draft currency to pick a player like Charlie Cameron/Pickett might be a better example.

If there are hard to find attributes in humans, it's athletic talls, speed and skill. The guys around 200cm who can move smooth (Alex Pearce, Luke Jackson, Jye Amiss) and the really fast guys at their feet. That's just what they are born with and it's rare enough, adding in the skills with the marking and kicking, clean hands etc and it's even rarer.

I think you can make a case for us selling our fringe players to try and find someone in that special class, those are the guys who break open a moment, enough of them in a game and it changes the entire thing.

We could really do with an elite kicking small/medium forward who will move to the middle and deliver the ball like silk poetry, making everyone else better too - that player to me was Tyler Brockman. It's also the player we can draft and play immediately, if we can pick him.

 

[Joao]

The Draft has no guarantee of knowing whether a player is going to be good or not, that's the whole problem, do we really want to spend another few years relying on a game of chance, potentially setting us back even further?

This is true of a single draft pick but is not true of many draft picks. Sustained drafting over time will produce B22 regularly.

Not only do I want to do it that way, I think it is by far the better approach for being good for longer.

 

[Freoforever86]

I reckon our B22 is potentially (i.e. in the future some time) good enough or at least very close to.

Just need one or two more players that can separate a close game.

I reckon it’s the most important off-season for awhile for Fyfe. he’s that game separating player we’re looking for. Whether he can get fit to do it is the question.

 

[MadMundy]

This is true of a single draft pick but is not true of many draft picks. Sustained drafting over time will produce B22 regularly.

Not only do I want to do it that way, I think it is by far the better approach for being good for longer.

We've done this for the past 7 years already, we shouldn't have to keep doing it by now.

 

[Alfonz]

The Draft has no guarantee of knowing whether a player is going to be good or not, that's the whole problem, do we really want to spend another few years relying on a game of chance, potentially setting us back even further?

As opposed to the alternative of bringing in a cavalcade of experienced players from AFL clubs? How has that worked out for us? Hamling, JOM, Aish, Corbett, Brodie, Colyer, Wilson, Lobb, Acres, Hill, Matera, Kersten, Hogan, McCarthy, Bennell, Sylvia, etc. The list goes on.

Some of these players are/were reasonable, but ultimately they haven't delivered and at best we might have Aish hanging on to a fringe spot when we are contending. It works for other clubs, but doesn't seem to work for us.

Jackson is a unicorn and enormous trade cost. Bit different. As would be getting Taylor or Naughton or that calibre of player. But if we are debating average experienced players versus unknown picks in the 20-50s, the latter is what has worked for us, and there is no good reason to expect that to be different going forward.

 

[Taylor]

I reckon it’s the most important off-season for awhile for Fyfe. he’s that game separating player we’re looking for. Whether he can get fit to do it is the question.

I agree. I want him spending the time preparing to be the marking target out of defense that starts in the forward line and for bursts on the stoppages. Roaming between the arcs, drifting forward if there's a miss match but his primary role will be securing field position with marking power.

And for that he needs to be able to run. They will tag him but he needs to be manned up by a biiiig opponent to stop him. One of Amiss, Treacy or Jackson is getting a smaller opponent to bully.

 

[MadMundy]

As opposed to the alternative of bringing in a cavalcade of experienced players from AFL clubs? How has that worked out for us? Hamling, JOM, Aish, Corbett, Brodie, Colyer, Wilson, Lobb, Acres, Hill, Matera, Kersten, Hogan, McCarthy, Bennell, Sylvia, etc. The list goes on.

Some of these players are/were reasonable, but ultimately they haven't delivered and at best we might have Aish hanging on to a fringe spot when we are contending. It works for other clubs, but doesn't seem to work for us.

Jackson is a unicorn and enormous trade cost. Bit different. As would be getting Taylor or Naughton or that calibre of player. But if we are debating average experienced players versus unknown picks in the 20-50s, the latter is what has worked for us, and there is no good reason to expect that to be different going forward.

Some of those players were bad decisions, some of them were purely mismanaging them and not playing them to their strengths.

 

[Dockeroo]

We've done this for the past 7 years already, we shouldn't have to keep doing it by now.

Sounds like David Walls, one of the best draft recruiters in the business, especially in the late rounds like the 40-60 pick range, should just pack up and leave the dockers in that case?

We are finished with the draft for the next few years eh

 

[CaseySibosadoHOF]

You could literally say that about every draft every year. Again - the Gerard neesham approach.
The weakest few players on our list are grossly overrated by this board.
For me there is always room on our list for 4 of the top 60 young players in the country each year regardless of where we are at.

I agree with most of this, but with Benning, Colyer and Wilson gone, Henry getting traded and potentially that veteran's list spot thing happening, that's 5 list spots opening. Sharp coming in takes 1 of them away, but also you have the possibility of Kuek being placed on the injury list.

Would need to do some creative list management by getting guys onto the rookie list, but if the above eventuates I don't think there's a pressing need to get rid of someone else (though there is if the above doesn't eventuate), especially when the "weakest few" on our list are probably some of last year's draftees that spent time in the WAFL rezzies. Exception is if we have another WTF traded player in, in which case you'd think another list spot needs freeing.

 

[Dockeroo]

I agree with most of this, but with Benning, Colyer and Wilson gone, Henry getting traded and potentially that veteran's list spot thing happening, that's 5 list spots opening. Sharp coming in takes 1 of them away, but also you have the possibility of Kuek being placed on the injury list.

Would need to do some creative list management by getting guys onto the rookie list, but if the above eventuates I don't think there's a pressing need to get rid of someone else (though there is if the above doesn't eventuate), especially when the "weakest few" on our list are probably some of last year's draftees that spent time in the WAFL rezzies. Exception is if we have another WTF traded player in, in which case you'd think another list spot needs freeing.

Yeah if the veterans list spot comes in I guess that frees up a place for Hamling, which I’d assume would be on minimum chips for the year ahead.
We still haven’t heard anything about Liam Reidy either who I believe was on a one year rookie deal.
So far at this stage:
OUT:
Henry
Colyer
Benning
Wilson

MAYBE OUT:
Hamling
Reidy
Williams

LIKELY IN:
Sharp (trade)
Banfield (RL to main list)
Treacy (RL to main list)

This would leave one main list place available in the national draft to pick a player. If hamling was added to the the rookie list in place of Banfield that would be 2.
Then we could delist Corbett and rerookie him (we have to do this as he’s contracted), freeing up a third ND selection.
There would be no room left on the rookie list then though unless Reidy was cut.

A veteran list spot to move Walters to would give us another main list spot that could be used in either the ND or rookie draft.

 

[rgauci]

Yeah if the veterans list spot comes in I guess that frees up a place for Hamling, which I’d assume would be on minimum chips for the year ahead.
We still haven’t heard anything about Liam Reidy either who I believe was on a one year rookie deal.
So far at this stage:
OUT:
Henry
Colyer
Benning
Wilson

MAYBE OUT:
Hamling
Reidy
Williams

LIKELY IN:
Sharp (trade)
Banfield (RL to main list)
Treacy (RL to main list)

This would leave one main list place available in the national draft to pick a player. If hamling was added to the the rookie list in place of Banfield that would be 2.
Then we could delist Corbett and rerookie him (we have to do this as he’s contracted), freeing up a third ND selection.
There would be no room left on the rookie list then though unless Reidy was cut.

A veteran list spot to move Walters to would give us another main list spot that could be used in either the ND or rookie draft.

It would be very easy to clear spots to use the main draft. Could delist and add to the rookie list any of the following:

Corbett, Taberner, Hamling, Banfield, Hughes….

There would be a very little chance of losing any of them, and I vaguely remember the afl allowing players to be moved to the rookie list without issue, though that might have been Covid times only.

 

[Joao]

We've done this for the past 7 years already, we shouldn't have to keep doing it by now.

Why wouldn't we? We've added all this talent from the draft. Many of them from picks outside 10.

Why wouldn't we continue to draft players knowing full well that we're going to hit often and simultaneously keeping our demographics evenly spread rather than concentrated on a 4-6 year age group?

 

[Purple Suit]

Yeah if the veterans list spot comes in I guess that frees up a place for Hamling, which I’d assume would be on minimum chips for the year ahead.
We still haven’t heard anything about Liam Reidy either who I believe was on a one year rookie deal.
So far at this stage:
OUT:
Henry
Colyer
Benning
Wilson

MAYBE OUT:
Hamling
Reidy
Williams

LIKELY IN:
Sharp (trade)
Banfield (RL to main list)
Treacy (RL to main list)

This would leave one main list place available in the national draft to pick a player. If hamling was added to the the rookie list in place of Banfield that would be 2.
Then we could delist Corbett and rerookie him (we have to do this as he’s contracted), freeing up a third ND selection.
There would be no room left on the rookie list then though unless Reidy was cut.

A veteran list spot to move Walters to would give us another main list spot that could be used in either the ND or rookie draft.

We’ll be bringing in 3-4 kids minimum either main list or Rookie with some shuffling as required.

This is fine and not a disaster that will turn us into WC or make Walls want to leave.

 

[gungho]

Assuming Fyfe can’t make a significant difference to the midfield next year. (He hasn’t been able to for 3 years so this is the safest assumption you could make). I think we are missing one explosive midfielder with size and pace, one elite ball user on a wing, and 1 more key forward, before we win a premiership.
Sharp might just be that winger. If so we just need the midfielder and forward.

Rather than going to the draft, I reckon there is merit in somehow finding a 21/22 year old that wants to come home. Logan mcdonald?

 

[Belnakor]

Jesus going and watching Colin Young on Show Me the Money is hard.

This whole Rory Lobb scenario is a trainwreck to watch.

Anyone who watches that show and thinks Colin Young is a competent player-manager has rocks in their head. The other agents treat him with contempt.

 

[Docker82]

We’ll be bringing in 3-4 kids minimum either main list or Rookie with some shuffling as required.

This is fine and not a disaster that will turn us into WC or make Walls want to leave.

One thing I’ll add is we’ve already added one player to the list since the start of the season.

I’m happy with a draft haul of three picks inside 40 and Ethan Stanley. I would prefer we have another selection in the National Draft later on though.

Basically what I’m saying is that if we get that extra list spot through the veteran list I’d still downgrade two players to the Rookie Draft and use the extra selection towards the end of the National Draft.

Also think it is kind of low list turnover that isn’t sustainable. It’s okay for one year but probably gets us in trouble if it becomes the norm.