Autopsy 2023 Rd 10 Blues lose game in first quarter

[passmark]

Im asking about now, who out there is available that we could add to our coaching group, now. Which is why I specifically said now in my post and previous posts.

Ken would be a great assistant next year, but that’s not what I’m asking.

I could see our board and admin going for a mentor/experienced person. As much to keep the fans happy (look, we're doing something!) as improving things.

Either way it's largely up to the people currently in their roles who are going to have to get themselves out.

 

[katmanblue]

We are the Borg!

Resistance is futile.

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[katmanblue]

Boyd was pretty good in the second half, some good kicking and a first class diving intercept mark at half back.

All it took was for him to cop a knee in the head. Must've cleared the cobwebs.

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[Arr0w]

Might sound dumb, but I was more wondering g withe the coaching, could anyone of quality be added to the group now? Or would it be too late to make an impression?

Forget money implications, if you have someone good, you pay them and pay the tax, I’m wondering if there is anyone who we could actually add to help?

All assistants have a gig, no one is moving mid season

 

[katmanblue]

I actually have a new theory now. Legit. I don’t think they bomb it to Charlie and Harry. I’m serious. No joke inbound either.

I think they just bomb it. And Harry and Charlie get there.

As an example of why I think that look late in the game when Doc gets the ball….Charlie leaves Murphy for dead on the lead…..so murphy doubles back…..and Doc bombs it.

To murphy.

I don’t think they even look

And it's our senior players that do it. Walsh does it just as often.

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[Aphrodite]

presumably more carlton supporters get to calrotn home game vs a collingwood home game so i get where they are coming from.

I responded to this post.

Nothing to do with crowd numbers/attendances Frumpy.

A post on reddit made me search the last time we beat Collingwood at home.

Round 3 2012

 

[Show_Me_The_Money]

He took two good marks in the first also.


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Given he only took 3 marks for the game one of you is clearly wrong.

 

[Bluebager]

Coaches that are recently goneski and are currently out of the coaching system - Leon Cameron, Nathan Buckley and David Noble.

Dew might get the chop so he’d be on the market:

Hinkley is well entrenched at Port but there’s every chance they part ways if Port doesn’t go deep into September.

Of those, Noble is off the table and I can’t see Hinkley or bucks being lured, let alone for a role that isn’t head coach. Dew would prob take a senior assistant gig, and not sure on Cameron.

Not saying Voss should be sacked but there isn’t much going around

does Justin Leppitsch Ring a bell?

 

[Manhattanite]

All assistants have a gig, no one is moving mid season

Could also look at those who took the year off and ex senior coaches and those doing media right now

But yes ideally need a smart strategist who can adjust our game plan and help drill it into our players in a few weeks time and there’s probably only a few who can do that and they would all be somewhere right now





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[ItsAllAboutMe]

along the lines of 'í shouldnt be saying this but i was on the bench laughing when they kept kicking the ball to darcy'

2 aspects to it:

• laughing at us continually doing the wrong thing and kicking it to their best defender.
• worst of all is the total lack of respect they have for us as a club 'i shouldnt be saying this but bugger it'

If im a collingwood fan i love what he says but as a carlton fan it is a total indictment on our club that they dont repsect us and happy to go against his instincts and tell it like it is. Im not upset at what he said or want vengeance, the opposite. im angry at the club for being so s**t for so long that they dont respect us - they took the mickey yeterday and cruised to a win

As a supporter it was embarrassing, as a player or anyone from within the club it should ******* burn.

 

[Coops93]

Pitto has played 50 games and has a total of 5 career goals and avg 1.7 marks a game.. If we compare that to Darcy Cameron, who most would agree is an ordinary Ruckman.. he has played 57 games for 56 goals, avg 4.2 marks a game, admittedly early days he played as a forward but has played the last 2 seasons as a #1 ruck. Even a spud like Matt Flynn has kicked 10 goals from 33 games and 2.9 marks.

I think he's a good tap ruckman, however that's where his impact ends.

I remember when we picked him up and saw it referenced that he doesn't take many marks around the ground and will always struggle with that as he actually has quite small hands, particularly for his size. I know that might sound comical and I was dismissive at the time, I don't know if that specifically is true but the thought that he isn't a good mark and won't developed into one has rung true.

He's half of the ruckman I think you need in the AFL. He's great at taps but he isn't able to do the other part which is be a marking down the line target and be at least a threat inside 50. If he could add marking to his game he'd be an elite ruckman imo given his tap work is very good, but I don't think that will ever happen.

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

Given he only took 3 marks for the game one of you is clearly wrong.

not me~!

 

[marleyblue]

Voss is asking for the players to be accountable.

Considering this current playing group and Carlton recent history this is the equivalent of preaching abstinence at a swingers party in terms of difficulty.

He's backed the players in all season to perform and they haven't. Leadership group in particular haven't proved themselves worth a damn.

At what stage do you accept that it is the coach and the game plan that is the issue rather than the players?

Quite a coincidence that so many of our best players are devoid of confidence, look confused and unsure of themselves. This is leading to indecision, skill errors and loads of turnovers. Everyone from supporters to the media can see the game plan is a mess and opposition coaches have no trouble planning against us.

The coach has a responsibility to extract the best out of the playing list - through development, motivation, setting standards and implementing structures and a game plan that maximises the talent. Have a look at the turnaround at Collingwood since McRae came onboard. They were a kick from a GF last year and now premiership favourites yet the core is basically the same list that finished 17th in 2021. Were the players responsible for Buckley's demise? Would they be on top now if the leadership group performed and Buckley remained?

Look at the list of players well done on form - Cripps 22 Brownlow medallist, McKay 2021 Coleman Medallist, Saad 22 All-Australian HBF, Walsh and Weitering 22 All-Australian squad, Hewett (5th in 22 B&F). These are top tier talent, not just at Carlton but in the whole comp and they are so far down on form they are unrecognisable. Add in the drop in output from the mid-tier and developing players (compare 22 to 23 for Young, Silvagni, McGovern, Fisher, Motlop, TDK etc, even Acres looks a shadow of the 22 player at Freo).

I've read multiple posts bagging the players for wanting to kill another coach but I'm not buying it. The players haven't made a decision to play rubbish football, they want to win. This is a coaching issue and it is primarily due to a game plan that is horrific - outdated, simplistic and slow. We were found out last year and rather than spend the off-season coaching a modern game plan, Voss and co doubled-down.

Right now it's a disaster and Voss needs to wake up and recognise the game plan doesn't work and he needs to make significant changes. Longer term the club need to ensure we bring in better assistants (especially tactical) and probably a very experienced head of football or in 12-18 months Voss will be gone and we'll be rebuilding yet again.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

I think he's a good tap ruckman, however that's where his impact ends.

I remember when we picked him up and saw it referenced that he doesn't take many marks around the ground and will always struggle with that as he actually has quite small hands, particularly for his size. I know that might sound comical and I was dismissive at the time, I don't know if that specifically is true but the thought that he isn't a good mark and won't developed into one has rung true.

He's half of the ruckman I think you need in the AFL. He's great at taps but he isn't able to do the other part which is be a marking down the line target and be at least a threat inside 50. If he could add marking to his game he'd be an elite ruckman imo given his tap work is very good, but I don't think that will ever happen.

He wins hit outs, but how many of them turn into effective clearances. IMO his tap work is oversold because he gets his hand to the ball first. The best rucks put it down the throat of their mids allowing them to extract out of the centre square and get a quick f50 entry.. I cant remember the last time this happened.

 

[Wickzki]

How do you know Hansen is A grade? He had a few wraps on him before coming but our forward line has been shocking for 18 months.

He had spent 9 years at the dogs.

Not sure if he’s up to the hype

His success at the Dogs. Every line he worked with showed improvement. They didn't want to lose him but accepted it as they knew it was the next step in his journey to get the top job somewhere


Voss has previously credited him multiple times with divising the strategy that helped us win games (i.e. round two this year).

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

At what stage do you accept that it is the coach and the game plan that is the issue rather than the players?

Quite a coincidence that so many of our best players are devoid of confidence, look confused and unsure of themselves. This is leading to indecision, skill errors and loads of turnovers. Everyone from supporters to the media can see the game plan is a mess and opposition coaches have no trouble planning against us.

The coach has a responsibility to extract the best out of the playing list - through development, motivation, setting standards and implementing structures and a game plan that maximises the talent. Have a look at the turnaround at Collingwood since McRae came onboard. They were a kick from a GF last year and now premiership favourites yet the core is basically the same list that finished 17th in 2021. Were the players responsible for Buckley's demise? Would they be on top now if the leadership group performed and Buckley remained?

Look at the list of players well done on form - Cripps 22 Brownlow medallist, McKay 2021 Coleman Medallist, Saad 22 All-Australian HBF, Walsh and Weitering 22 All-Australian squad, Hewett (5th in 22 B&F). These are top tier talent, not just at Carlton but in the whole comp and they are so far down on form they are unrecognisable. Add in the drop in output from the mid-tier and developing players (compare 22 to 23 for Young, Silvagni, McGovern, Fisher, Motlop, TDK etc, even Acres looks a shadow of the 22 player at Freo).

I've read multiple posts bagging the players for wanting to kill another coach but I'm not buying it. The players haven't made a decision to play rubbish football, they want to win. This is a coaching issue and it is primarily due to a game plan that is horrific - outdated, simplistic and slow. We were found out last year and rather than spend the off-season coaching a modern game plan, Voss and co doubled-down.

Right now it's a disaster and Voss needs to wake up and recognise the game plan doesn't work and he needs to make significant changes. Longer term the club need to ensure we bring in better assistants (especially tactical) and probably a very experienced head of football or in 12-18 months Voss will be gone and we'll be rebuilding yet again.

Well put argument. Kudos!

QUESTION now is whether Voss has the cajones to do a mea culpa and change course?

Recent history suggests no, sadly.

 

[El Topo]

I'm convinced we got Hamill because of the Carlton story and positive PR

Needs based recruitment - we'd finally gotten rid of John Barker and needed to replace him with someone else's version

 

[Jeremias]

Pitto has played 50 games and has a total of 5 career goals and avg 1.7 marks a game.. If we compare that to Darcy Cameron, who most would agree is an ordinary Ruckman.. he has played 57 games for 56 goals, avg 4.2 marks a game, admittedly early days he played as a forward but has played the last 2 seasons as a #1 ruck. Even a spud like Matt Flynn has kicked 10 goals from 33 games and 2.9 marks.

Strange comparison given Cameron played almost exclusively as a forward through the first 30 odd games of his career.

He was only thrust into the #1 ruck role at the Pies when Grundy went down with injury a month or so into last season.

Here's another interesting comparison - your favorite Sean Darcy through 50 games averaged less than half a mark more per game (2.04) than Pittonet, and he averaged a whopping .38 goals per game over that period - numbers somewhat inflated towards the back end when he started to find his feet.

No doubt you thought poorly of him in that time frame too, yeah?

EDIT: And yeah, don't bother coming back with something like "I can't believe you're comparing Pittonet to Darcy". Very obviously I am not comparing the two on ability.

 

[Coops93]

He wins hit outs, but how many of them turn into effective clearances. IMO his tap work is oversold because he gets his hand to the ball first. The best rucks put it down the throat of their mids allowing them to extract out of the centre square and get a quick f50 entry.. I cant remember the last time this happened.

Iirc only 2 or so weeks ago the stats were published that showed he was no.1 for hit outs to advantage in the AFL. Even v Collingwood I noticed several times he was getting first touch and to advantage. It was the first possession that was poor

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

Hi XXXX, We are clearly disappointed and frustrated with our start to the year. The first 10 weeks, whilst providing us with glimpses of what our AFL side is capable of, have also shown that right now, we’re off the mark against the best teams in the competition. There is no point sugar coating it, it simply hasn’t been good enough to this point. We’d rather own it now, so that we can get on with addressing it. It comes as no surprise to any of us that there has been significant external noise around our football club this year. We’ve deserved our whacks at times, we absolutely accept that, and cop it on the chin. What we won’t do though, is let external narratives dictate our reality. That reality sees us currently two points out of the top eight, with 13 games to go. That is the challenge ahead of us for the remainder of the year. A challenge that is well and truly achievable, but it is on us to rise to it. We will be judging our season in its totality, after 24 rounds, not 10. There is a lot of football still to be played and if last season taught us anything, it is that a season is a marathon, fortunes can change and it’s on us now to change ours for the better. Rest assured, nobody is just sitting on their hands here, assuming the wheel will turn. Our leaders, everyone at Carlton, are right now demanding better out of each other. We have not been afraid to have the tough conversations we need to. This football club is done with finger pointing. Stability and unity in your football program is what gets you through tough patches. I acknowledge it may not be what some want to hear but for the next 13 weeks and hopefully longer this season, we are in this together and that is not changing. Every step of the way. Two points out of the eight, with 13 games to go. Our destiny is very much in our own hands. So let’s own that, and get on with it. Clearly success will only be earned by this football club if we stick together and be ruthless in our drive to improve in the second half of the year. To you, our members, you have played your part so far this year. The sold-out crowds speak for themselves but to be honest still only tell half the story. Your investment in this football club is incredible, not just on match day but every day. While clearly we know there has been frustration, anger at times, we know you come from a place of care, of passion and a deep connection to the football club you love. Give me a supporter base like ours over any other, any day of the week. Take care of yourselves and look after each other Bluebaggers. We’re in this together every step of the way this year, no matter what. Kind regards,

Luke Sayers President Member ID: 2908822

 

[Show_Me_The_Money]

I think he's a good tap ruckman, however that's where his impact ends.

I remember when we picked him up and saw it referenced that he doesn't take many marks around the ground and will always struggle with that as he actually has quite small hands, particularly for his size. I know that might sound comical and I was dismissive at the time, I don't know if that specifically is true but the thought that he isn't a good mark and won't developed into one has rung true.

He's half of the ruckman I think you need in the AFL. He's great at taps but he isn't able to do the other part which is be a marking down the line target and be at least a threat inside 50. If he could add marking to his game he'd be an elite ruckman imo given his tap work is very good, but I don't think that will ever happen.

Agree. I also think he is decent below the knees can bend over, pick it up cleanly and dish off with hands but just the lack of aerial impact around the ground is really hurting us. He should've been jumping hard for the mark when johnson took mark of the day over him but he's feet remained rooted to the ground.

 

[Show_Me_The_Money]

​

​ Hi XXXX, We are clearly disappointed and frustrated with our start to the year. The first 10 weeks, whilst providing us with glimpses of what our AFL side is capable of, have also shown that right now, we’re off the mark against the best teams in the competition. There is no point sugar coating it, it simply hasn’t been good enough to this point. We’d rather own it now, so that we can get on with addressing it. It comes as no surprise to any of us that there has been significant external noise around our football club this year. We’ve deserved our whacks at times, we absolutely accept that, and cop it on the chin. What we won’t do though, is let external narratives dictate our reality. That reality sees us currently two points out of the top eight, with 13 games to go. That is the challenge ahead of us for the remainder of the year. A challenge that is well and truly achievable, but it is on us to rise to it. We will be judging our season in its totality, after 24 rounds, not 10. There is a lot of football still to be played and if last season taught us anything, it is that a season is a marathon, fortunes can change and it’s on us now to change ours for the better. Rest assured, nobody is just sitting on their hands here, assuming the wheel will turn. Our leaders, everyone at Carlton, are right now demanding better out of each other. We have not been afraid to have the tough conversations we need to. This football club is done with finger pointing. Stability and unity in your football program is what gets you through tough patches. I acknowledge it may not be what some want to hear but for the next 13 weeks and hopefully longer this season, we are in this together and that is not changing. Every step of the way. Two points out of the eight, with 13 games to go. Our destiny is very much in our own hands. So let’s own that, and get on with it. Clearly success will only be earned by this football club if we stick together and be ruthless in our drive to improve in the second half of the year. To you, our members, you have played your part so far this year. The sold-out crowds speak for themselves but to be honest still only tell half the story. Your investment in this football club is incredible, not just on match day but every day. While clearly we know there has been frustration, anger at times, we know you come from a place of care, of passion and a deep connection to the football club you love. Give me a supporter base like ours over any other, any day of the week. Take care of yourselves and look after each other Bluebaggers. We’re in this together every step of the way this year, no matter what. Kind regards,

​

​ Luke Sayers President Member ID: 2908822

Two points out of the eight is one way of looking at it. Eight wins from our last twenty one games is where it's really at. With more losses to come.

 

[Show_Me_The_Money]

Strange comparison given Cameron played almost exclusively as a forward through the first 30 odd games of his career.

He was only thrust into the #1 ruck role at the Pies when Grundy went down with injury a month or so into last season.

Here's another interesting comparison - your favorite Sean Darcy through 50 games averaged less than half a mark more per game (2.04) than Pittonet, and he averaged a whopping .38 goals per game over that period - numbers somewhat inflated towards the back end when he started to find his feet.

No doubt you thought poorly of him in that time frame too, yeah?

EDIT: And yeah, don't bother coming back with something like "I can't believe you're comparing Pittonet to Darcy". Very obviously I am not comparing the two on ability.

Are you saying Pittonet needs more time to find his feet?

 

[Jeremias]

Are you saying Pittonet needs more time to find his feet?

I'm saying many things, including it's odd and largely pointless to compare him to players who haven't necessarily played the same role.

Pittonet has often dropped a kick behind the play over the past few years rather than pushed forward which many other rucks tend to.

 

[Wickzki]

Aaron was at the saints through all their losing. Why on earth did we get him.

What a fabulous PR move it was at the time. Bringing back the player Elliott trashed on his way out and who is much loved by sectors of the supporter base.