Autopsy 2023 Rd 16 Blues don't give a ruck but thrash Hawks anyway

Who played well for the Blues in Round 16 vs the Hawks?

  • Total voters
    125
  • Poll closed .

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CJMB said:
still think my favourite part of the game was Martin straight-lining it and obliterating the hawks player in the process
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watching him contest any ball is like watching parents cycling through traffic with one of those trailers on behind with a baby inside............
 
T2B_ said:
Wowee, the Hawks autopsy thread makes for some fine reading. And by fine, I mean absolutely shite.

No respect whatsoever, it was all about how the Hawks didn't turn up and absolutely nothing to do with our effort. The young Hawks side is God's gift to football in waiting, and Carlton sucks the donkey balls.

I guess in fairness they just can't handle losing to us now after having the wood on us for so long.
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Hawks just keep rebuilding beautifully and they've been spoilt over the last 40-50 years. They need a good 20+ years of solid bottom 4 finishes to complete the circle. I think they're in for a good 5 years of worth of pain and would be interesting if they can time things again with their list with the introduction of Tassie as they did to aplomb with GC and GWS.

I was very concerned about Mitchells continuous hints recently about Hawks returning to unsociable football and did fear to see some nasty behind the scenes tactics, even thought a few of their after our post mark shoves and niggles during the game were in merit of a 50m.
 
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4flagsin5yrs said:
Amazing how the "we're slow" mantra melts away when we win the pill at the contest and use it well....
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Never been about us being slow (pace-wise) imo but just not making quick decisions with the ball. The addition of Kemp, Boyd and Cincotta in defence help with that. Newman back also unlocks Saad a bit.
 
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It's nice to win and it's nice to win by a lot. End of the day we beat a team who tried hard but they are a bottom side with key players missing so you would expect we would win by a lot being any good at all. Played a good brand of footy, tackled well and applied pressure well.

I've given the coach a hammering recently on here and there is no doubt it's justified but he's got some thing right which is good, more than he has been so far in his time at Carlton. The real test will be playing some half decent teams in the coming weeks. See whether it's real or whether it's just that we have played a couple of very weak sides. Voss has made mountains of mistakes but he's started to get more right recently. Perhaps his tenure at Carlton is going to be a slow burn. A lot of coaches have had to adapt to the new style of play and some have been slow to the show, unfortunately we're one of those teams.

I think he got three things very wrong that to me seem really obvious. Again you need to use players traits when selecting them for roles. Dow should have played ahead of Ed Curnow. Curnow is slow and not damaging in the least. They ran off him. He played half forward for no goals and no impact. Dow who has been playing the forward game really well in the VFL for two seasons and has the skills and leg speed would be ideal for this role. He kicked 3 goals straight for 29 disposals carrying a hard tag in the VFL, Ed Can't do that at VFL level anymore let alone AFL. Dow would have kicked goals in that AFL side, his pace would have added a lot. He's fitter than Fogarty and Cuningham so no issue with his tank. Dow would have also game us a genuine midfield rotation. He's a better onballer than Cuningham and Fogarty who were our midfield rotations for the day. This was a dumb decision by the coach. The other was how we used the ruckmen. Young is a strong overhead mark who has become too negative and indecisive as a defender to go for his marks. Silvagni is a very poor overhead mark but a strong competitor. Silvagni should have played defence, Young should have played forward. You would think after DeKoning, Curnow and McKay being such a good combination the game prior we might want to go back to the three tall structure forward. I'm also far more comfortable with Silvagni in the backline than Young. Those goals young had kicked on him because his awareness is terrible and he let forwards stand on their own, there is no way that happens to Silvagni. That one goal Silvagni kicked as a forward, I bet Young could have kicked 1 goal. You get away with these mistakes playing weak sides, you don't get away with them playing better sides like Fremantle for example. And this is why we have failed all season. Bad coaching. It's getting better but it's still a problem.

The brand of footy we are playing is modern finally, there is an effort to move the ball forward quicker and more direct. We are rotating the midfielders more and we are picking more quick players. However we aren't going to the full extent when it comes to getting team selecting right and embracing pace. The Ed Curnow selection over Dow or Binns was a howler. Hewett being the sub was ok but not a great deal better. These are two players we need to make a concerted effort to move on from if we are to be fully embracing the modern game and to move forward.

One thing about the modern game is that playing fast and going up the middle of the ground is in big time, it's a must. Good kicking is a must. This means leg speed is super important for defenders as they can't rely on team defence as much as they have in the past, they have to be able to defend one on one and that has brought some of the slower defenders undone. Young and Newman for example. It's also meant leg speed around the midfield is more important than ever. The ability to run ahead of the ball quickly to setup team defence to match the fast ball movement of teams as well as chase players quickly to effectively apply pressure and to break away from congestion for run and carry to generate fast ball movement has become very important to the modern game which is far more open, outside and quick. Voss not picking up on this, not embracing this and not moving on from favouring slow and old blokes towards favouring fast blokes is why we will probably miss finals this season.

We've added some speed to our team, our defence is better for it, our defenders can intercept and attack more. Our midfield applies a lot more pressure and tackles a lot more, we run and carry a lot more which supplies the forwards with better feed. So we have improved but it's probably too late. Let's hope not.

So the game plan in terms of how we move the ball and apply pressure is better but our team selection remains questionable. You can't keep picking slow legs if you wish to generate a modern game plan which involves fast pressure, fast ball movement, run and carry and a team which has the speed to run ahead and get behind the ball quickly. Cripps and Kennedy is borderline too many slow legs. Adding Curnow and Hewett. Weak teams we get away with it, playing the top 10 we won't get away with getting our team selection wrong like that.

No rucks and lack of genuine third tall forward was an issue but it was evened out by having a little more run and ground level play with Silvagni. Would controlling the hitouts and having that extra overhead marking option have been better? I still think so. I still think we would have been better off with TDK and Pittonet over Young and Silvagni.

Can't take too much away from belting a very weak team but we did play well, starting to play the right way and half getting the team selection right. Let's see what happens next week.

Cripps - Had a par game from him, thought he was running really well. He looks fit. Still got caught standing and wrestling at stoppages which he needs to try and avoid, a decent midfield coach would have be all over this with him. Just because your big and strong does not mean you stand and wrestle, use it with momentum to be hard to tackle and hard to stop. Cripps with his feet moving is dynamite, with him standing still he's run of the mill. He's getting better with this but work needs to be done. IMO he was probably standing and wrestling more because of the lack of a genuine ruckman in there so will let him off this week. But going forward, lets get those feet moving and disengage the contact a bit more.

Cerra - He's matured and he's taking advantage over us trying to be less Cripps focused in there. He's become a top level inside midfielder. Love him drifting forward, he's a terrific kick for goal. He's bigger and stronger than he was last season, lovely skills and strong tackler. He's proven to be worth every penny.

Docherty - Looked to play wing and back pocket. Thought he had a really good game. Loves to kick a goal. Strong over head and was solid as a rock when in defence. Found plenty of it and was neat with his disposal which isn't always the case.

Walsh - I've been critical of him in the past for accumulating possessions and having no impact on the game. Last few weeks he's been getting a little less of it but having a far greater impact on the game. His run and carry game is his bread and butter. Using his speed to apply pressure. This is much better football from Walsh. Starting at the back of contests moving through them running forward. Been calling for this for months and here we are. Nothing better than seeing Walsh running with the footy and hitting targets. This is him at his best.

Saad - Another player who has been down this season who is back to his best. Finding plenty of it, using it extremely well, run and carry. No doubt our more offensive game plan with more midfield pressure has helped him as it has all our defenders.

Acres - Thought it wasn't his best football, but it was still good. He's a top line wingman, he still had an impact, took a strong mark and kicked a goal, he kept making good position all day, not always the best user of the ball but by far not the worst. Thought he was solid and he's a competitor which I like about him.

McGovern - Thought he started a little slow on intensity then it built. He's someone who needs something to get him going. Looks like the operation he had has worked, haven't had a run of games out of him like this ever. Reckon we could get his brother over for a few seasons and fix him? McGovern is the ideal modern defender. He's super important for us because he has the leg speed and ability to defend one on one. This is something that has come back into the game this season with the fast ball movement. Gov has the height, speed and leap that is so so valuable to our side. On the flip side he brings ball winning, game sense, good kicking and intercept marking. Any idea he should be moved on is nuts IMO. These guys who can defend one on one and attack have become gold. As I said earlier the players who rely on team defence are getting caught out more and more and the ones who can defend one on one are becoming far more valuable.

McKay - Thought he was good. Did a lot of ground level stuff, marked well, presented well and kicked a few goals. One thing we are doing better is putting it out in front of our forwards who are on the move and not putting it on their heads. Harrys is near impossible to stop if you put it out in front of him and let him run and jump at it.

Kemp - What I said about McGovern I will say about Kemp. Another tallish defender who has the leg speed to defend one on one. He was not as prolific as he was last week but he held up a role and when the ball spills lose he makes up ground quick and gets to it. His kicking game was good. Gave us a bit of run and carry. Liked his game. He's a real modern day defender.

Fogarty - He's not the best player going around, he's been out of the team for a long time and earmarked to be delisted IMO. However he's hard at it, he can go on the ball for spurts and he gives us forward pressure. He was good. He's not a good kick, that's always going to be an issue but with players out and a forward line looking for guys who can apply pressure, lay a tackle and kick the odd goal he brings what we need. He's ahead of Fisher because of this. He's on his way to another contract.

Weitering - Another defender who is loving that we have more pace and pressure in the middle of the ground. He's back to intercepting. He's back to playing good football. Enjoyed seeing him display some aggression and play with his tail up. This is when he is at his best. Still find that when he takes a mark he takes too long to dispose of it. Would be saying to him not to ignore the runners past or the short side ways kicks, he's slow to move it at times.

Silvagni - We know what we will get from him and that is effort and competitiveness. Had a good day at ground level with his pressure and he found a few ground ball gets as a ruck. But. He gave away quite a few too many free kicks in the ruck and only took one overhead mark for the day. I don't think he's in the team with Pittonet and DeKoning. I think he is solid backup and would make a solid Sub. I think he had a solid game in this one but against the stronger sides with genuine rucks in close games this is not going to work for us.

Newman - He had a hand in their first 4 goals with the ball getting past him, he leaked badly in this game. He's one of these slow defenders who is getting caught out by the fast ball movement of the modern game and his lack of ability to defend one on one. Team defence is not something that can be relied on when the opposition move it quick and these slower defender, they get caught out and IMO Hawthorn were aware of this. I watched Cowan play in the VFL and gee he has come a long way this season. He's quick, he's a terrific kick, a long kick and very hard at it. Plays pretty tall too. Williams will be back next season. Newman is not far off falling out of the best 22 side as Plowman has the last few years. Smart player, leader and someone who was a lot more effective in the old style of the game but it's moved past him.

Kennedy - I thought he as ok but nothing special. Again a slower player who is just getting caught with the speed of the game going past these guys. I am really not convinced Kennedy should be ahead of Dow who to me is more of a modern game player. Thought Kennedy was ok, competed well but the game has changed and slow players on an AFL field get exposed.

Ed Curnow - He's been a great servant of the club but he is finished. This was a poor inclusion from the coach. Played half forward and the defenders just ran away from him. He's done. He's slow. I think every supporter knew that Binns or Dow would have been a far better selection than Ed. We have been pretty much proven correct. Dow with his pace and ability to kick goals playing half forward in this game could have sat at half forward then added insult to injury by going on the ball and giving us even more run and carry out of the middle. I can see it, I don't see how the coaches can't. The game has moved past Ed Curnow and towards Paddy Dow types. I do not get a lot of the team selection decisions.

Cuningham - He's half fit and playing just the sort of footy we need at half forward. Found a bit of it, used it nicely, used his leg speed to run carry and defend. Put his body in when he had to. Tackled and gave us a midfield rotation. He's a massive upgrade. Kicked 2 nice goals. He's a terrific kick.

Boyd - I Had Boyd as one of our BOG players. One on one defending was excellent. Spoils well, marks well, run and carry and he's a ripping good tackler. He was in everything, everything about his game was outstanding.

Young - Not a good game. Took 1 good overhead mark for the day, I thought playing ruck he would have taken more. Again he showed his lack of awareness with lose players in his area not getting covered. His spoiling looked weak. His body looks in terrible shape, he looks weak and built like a 2nd year player still. He's a good overhead mark but we saw none of it. Was a liability in defence. IMO the coach got this wrong. Young should have gone forward and Silvagni should have gone back.

Curnow - Early on he looked super dangerous. But he didn't kick straight early and that probably put him off a bit other wise this was going to be a 5 goal day for sure. Played a good game but it was good to not have to rely on he or Harry to kick all the goal.

Martin - His first halves are great but he disappears. If only we could get him fit. Loved watching him go in hard and hit bodies, this is Martin at his best. Lovely kick for goal, fast legs, smart player. Liked his game, can't wait to see him fit.

Cincotta - Started like a house on fire, looked a million bucks but went missing for a lot of the game. Not sure whether he was putting on a hard tag or not. I like him as a player. Good kick, strong body, can defend one on one, tackles well and has the leg speed to close in on a man and run and carry. Just has a habit of going to ground which I want to see out of his game. IMO still has some things to do educational wise at AFL level but the more we play him the better he will get. He's been a good selection.

Owies - He was the star the game before but a quiet game this week. Can't always have massive games as a small forward but he did little wrong. I do like how he plays.

Hewett - Came on for the last quarter and had very very minimal impact. I hope the coaches can see Dow is the better player. Out played him in his 1 quarter displays and at VFL level the other week. Hewett is a good natural footballer but, Sydney saw the game was changing as did a lot of other sides, they let him go and the game has moved past these big slow immobile mids. You can carry 1, maybe 2 but not 3 or 4 like we have been trying to do. Game has moved past him. He needs to find another club looking for a grunt mid or he will remain a VFL player waiting for Cripps or Kennedy to get injured. Coach needs to get this right or that slim hope of finals is gone.
 
gbatman said:
It's nice to win and it's nice to win by a lot. End of the day we beat a team who tried hard but they are a bottom side with key players missing so you would expect we would win by a lot being any good at all. Played a good brand of footy, tackled well and applied pressure well.

I've given the coach a hammering recently on here and there is no doubt it's justified but he's got some thing right which is good, more than he has been so far in his time at Carlton. The real test will be playing some half decent teams in the coming weeks. See whether it's real or whether it's just that we have played a couple of very weak sides. Voss has made mountains of mistakes but he's started to get more right recently. Perhaps his tenure at Carlton is going to be a slow burn. A lot of coaches have had to adapt to the new style of play and some have been slow to the show, unfortunately we're one of those teams.

I think he got three things very wrong that to me seem really obvious. Again you need to use players traits when selecting them for roles. Dow should have played ahead of Ed Curnow. Curnow is slow and not damaging in the least. They ran off him. He played half forward for no goals and no impact. Dow who has been playing the forward game really well in the VFL for two seasons and has the skills and leg speed would be ideal for this role. He kicked 3 goals straight for 29 disposals carrying a hard tag in the VFL, Ed Can't do that at VFL level anymore let alone AFL. Dow would have kicked goals in that AFL side, his pace would have added a lot. He's fitter than Fogarty and Cuningham so no issue with his tank. Dow would have also game us a genuine midfield rotation. He's a better onballer than Cuningham and Fogarty who were our midfield rotations for the day. This was a dumb decision by the coach. The other was how we used the ruckmen. Young is a strong overhead mark who has become too negative and indecisive as a defender to go for his marks. Silvagni is a very poor overhead mark but a strong competitor. Silvagni should have played defence, Young should have played forward. You would think after DeKoning, Curnow and McKay being such a good combination the game prior we might want to go back to the three tall structure forward. I'm also far more comfortable with Silvagni in the backline than Young. Those goals young had kicked on him because his awareness is terrible and he let forwards stand on their own, there is no way that happens to Silvagni. That one goal Silvagni kicked as a forward, I bet Young could have kicked 1 goal. You get away with these mistakes playing weak sides, you don't get away with them playing better sides like Fremantle for example. And this is why we have failed all season. Bad coaching. It's getting better but it's still a problem.

The brand of footy we are playing is modern finally, there is an effort to move the ball forward quicker and more direct. We are rotating the midfielders more and we are picking more quick players. However we aren't going to the full extent when it comes to getting team selecting right and embracing pace. The Ed Curnow selection over Dow or Binns was a howler. Hewett being the sub was ok but not a great deal better. These are two players we need to make a concerted effort to move on from if we are to be fully embracing the modern game and to move forward.

One thing about the modern game is that playing fast and going up the middle of the ground is in big time, it's a must. Good kicking is a must. This means leg speed is super important for defenders as they can't rely on team defence as much as they have in the past, they have to be able to defend one on one and that has brought some of the slower defenders undone. Young and Newman for example. It's also meant leg speed around the midfield is more important than ever. The ability to run ahead of the ball quickly to setup team defence to match the fast ball movement of teams as well as chase players quickly to effectively apply pressure and to break away from congestion for run and carry to generate fast ball movement has become very important to the modern game which is far more open, outside and quick. Voss not picking up on this, not embracing this and not moving on from favouring slow and old blokes towards favouring fast blokes is why we will probably miss finals this season.

We've added some speed to our team, our defence is better for it, our defenders can intercept and attack more. Our midfield applies a lot more pressure and tackles a lot more, we run and carry a lot more which supplies the forwards with better feed. So we have improved but it's probably too late. Let's hope not.

So the game plan in terms of how we move the ball and apply pressure is better but our team selection remains questionable. You can't keep picking slow legs if you wish to generate a modern game plan which involves fast pressure, fast ball movement, run and carry and a team which has the speed to run ahead and get behind the ball quickly. Cripps and Kennedy is borderline too many slow legs. Adding Curnow and Hewett. Weak teams we get away with it, playing the top 10 we won't get away with getting our team selection wrong like that.

No rucks and lack of genuine third tall forward was an issue but it was evened out by having a little more run and ground level play with Silvagni. Would controlling the hitouts and having that extra overhead marking option have been better? I still think so. I still think we would have been better off with TDK and Pittonet over Young and Silvagni.

Can't take too much away from belting a very weak team but we did play well, starting to play the right way and half getting the team selection right. Let's see what happens next week.

Cripps - Had a par game from him, thought he was running really well. He looks fit. Still got caught standing and wrestling at stoppages which he needs to try and avoid, a decent midfield coach would have be all over this with him. Just because your big and strong does not mean you stand and wrestle, use it with momentum to be hard to tackle and hard to stop. Cripps with his feet moving is dynamite, with him standing still he's run of the mill. He's getting better with this but work needs to be done. IMO he was probably standing and wrestling more because of the lack of a genuine ruckman in there so will let him off this week. But going forward, lets get those feet moving and disengage the contact a bit more.

Cerra - He's matured and he's taking advantage over us trying to be less Cripps focused in there. He's become a top level inside midfielder. Love him drifting forward, he's a terrific kick for goal. He's bigger and stronger than he was last season, lovely skills and strong tackler. He's proven to be worth every penny.

Docherty - Looked to play wing and back pocket. Thought he had a really good game. Loves to kick a goal. Strong over head and was solid as a rock when in defence. Found plenty of it and was neat with his disposal which isn't always the case.

Walsh - I've been critical of him in the past for accumulating possessions and having no impact on the game. Last few weeks he's been getting a little less of it but having a far greater impact on the game. His run and carry game is his bread and butter. Using his speed to apply pressure. This is much better football from Walsh. Starting at the back of contests moving through them running forward. Been calling for this for months and here we are. Nothing better than seeing Walsh running with the footy and hitting targets. This is him at his best.

Saad - Another player who has been down this season who is back to his best. Finding plenty of it, using it extremely well, run and carry. No doubt our more offensive game plan with more midfield pressure has helped him as it has all our defenders.

Acres - Thought it wasn't his best football, but it was still good. He's a top line wingman, he still had an impact, took a strong mark and kicked a goal, he kept making good position all day, not always the best user of the ball but by far not the worst. Thought he was solid and he's a competitor which I like about him.

McGovern - Thought he started a little slow on intensity then it built. He's someone who needs something to get him going. Looks like the operation he had has worked, haven't had a run of games out of him like this ever. Reckon we could get his brother over for a few seasons and fix him? McGovern is the ideal modern defender. He's super important for us because he has the leg speed and ability to defend one on one. This is something that has come back into the game this season with the fast ball movement. Gov has the height, speed and leap that is so so valuable to our side. On the flip side he brings ball winning, game sense, good kicking and intercept marking. Any idea he should be moved on is nuts IMO. These guys who can defend one on one and attack have become gold. As I said earlier the players who rely on team defence are getting caught out more and more and the ones who can defend one on one are becoming far more valuable.

McKay - Thought he was good. Did a lot of ground level stuff, marked well, presented well and kicked a few goals. One thing we are doing better is putting it out in front of our forwards who are on the move and not putting it on their heads. Harrys is near impossible to stop if you put it out in front of him and let him run and jump at it.

Kemp - What I said about McGovern I will say about Kemp. Another tallish defender who has the leg speed to defend one on one. He was not as prolific as he was last week but he held up a role and when the ball spills lose he makes up ground quick and gets to it. His kicking game was good. Gave us a bit of run and carry. Liked his game. He's a real modern day defender.

Fogarty - He's not the best player going around, he's been out of the team for a long time and earmarked to be delisted IMO. However he's hard at it, he can go on the ball for spurts and he gives us forward pressure. He was good. He's not a good kick, that's always going to be an issue but with players out and a forward line looking for guys who can apply pressure, lay a tackle and kick the odd goal he brings what we need. He's ahead of Fisher because of this. He's on his way to another contract.

Weitering - Another defender who is loving that we have more pace and pressure in the middle of the ground. He's back to intercepting. He's back to playing good football. Enjoyed seeing him display some aggression and play with his tail up. This is when he is at his best. Still find that when he takes a mark he takes too long to dispose of it. Would be saying to him not to ignore the runners past or the short side ways kicks, he's slow to move it at times.

Silvagni - We know what we will get from him and that is effort and competitiveness. Had a good day at ground level with his pressure and he found a few ground ball gets as a ruck. But. He gave away quite a few too many free kicks in the ruck and only took one overhead mark for the day. I don't think he's in the team with Pittonet and DeKoning. I think he is solid backup and would make a solid Sub. I think he had a solid game in this one but against the stronger sides with genuine rucks in close games this is not going to work for us.

Newman - He had a hand in their first 4 goals with the ball getting past him, he leaked badly in this game. He's one of these slow defenders who is getting caught out by the fast ball movement of the modern game and his lack of ability to defend one on one. Team defence is not something that can be relied on when the opposition move it quick and these slower defender, they get caught out and IMO Hawthorn were aware of this. I watched Cowan play in the VFL and gee he has come a long way this season. He's quick, he's a terrific kick, a long kick and very hard at it. Plays pretty tall too. Williams will be back next season. Newman is not far off falling out of the best 22 side as Plowman has the last few years. Smart player, leader and someone who was a lot more effective in the old style of the game but it's moved past him.

Kennedy - I thought he as ok but nothing special. Again a slower player who is just getting caught with the speed of the game going past these guys. I am really not convinced Kennedy should be ahead of Dow who to me is more of a modern game player. Thought Kennedy was ok, competed well but the game has changed and slow players on an AFL field get exposed.

Ed Curnow - He's been a great servant of the club but he is finished. This was a poor inclusion from the coach. Played half forward and the defenders just ran away from him. He's done. He's slow. I think every supporter knew that Binns or Dow would have been a far better selection than Ed. We have been pretty much proven correct. Dow with his pace and ability to kick goals playing half forward in this game could have sat at half forward then added insult to injury by going on the ball and giving us even more run and carry out of the middle. I can see it, I don't see how the coaches can't. The game has moved past Ed Curnow and towards Paddy Dow types. I do not get a lot of the team selection decisions.

Cuningham - He's half fit and playing just the sort of footy we need at half forward. Found a bit of it, used it nicely, used his leg speed to run carry and defend. Put his body in when he had to. Tackled and gave us a midfield rotation. He's a massive upgrade. Kicked 2 nice goals. He's a terrific kick.

Boyd - I Had Boyd as one of our BOG players. One on one defending was excellent. Spoils well, marks well, run and carry and he's a ripping good tackler. He was in everything, everything about his game was outstanding.

Young - Not a good game. Took 1 good overhead mark for the day, I thought playing ruck he would have taken more. Again he showed his lack of awareness with lose players in his area not getting covered. His spoiling looked weak. His body looks in terrible shape, he looks weak and built like a 2nd year player still. He's a good overhead mark but we saw none of it. Was a liability in defence. IMO the coach got this wrong. Young should have gone forward and Silvagni should have gone back.

Curnow - Early on he looked super dangerous. But he didn't kick straight early and that probably put him off a bit other wise this was going to be a 5 goal day for sure. Played a good game but it was good to not have to rely on he or Harry to kick all the goal.

Martin - His first halves are great but he disappears. If only we could get him fit. Loved watching him go in hard and hit bodies, this is Martin at his best. Lovely kick for goal, fast legs, smart player. Liked his game, can't wait to see him fit.

Cincotta - Started like a house on fire, looked a million bucks but went missing for a lot of the game. Not sure whether he was putting on a hard tag or not. I like him as a player. Good kick, strong body, can defend one on one, tackles well and has the leg speed to close in on a man and run and carry. Just has a habit of going to ground which I want to see out of his game. IMO still has some things to do educational wise at AFL level but the more we play him the better he will get. He's been a good selection.

Owies - He was the star the game before but a quiet game this week. Can't always have massive games as a small forward but he did little wrong. I do like how he plays.

Hewett - Came on for the last quarter and had very very minimal impact. I hope the coaches can see Dow is the better player. Out played him in his 1 quarter displays and at VFL level the other week. Hewett is a good natural footballer but, Sydney saw the game was changing as did a lot of other sides, they let him go and the game has moved past these big slow immobile mids. You can carry 1, maybe 2 but not 3 or 4 like we have been trying to do. Game has moved past him. He needs to find another club looking for a grunt mid or he will remain a VFL player waiting for Cripps or Kennedy to get injured. Coach needs to get this right or that slim hope of finals is gone.
Click to expand...

I started reading this post last night and only just finished.

Very comprehensive well done.


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gbatman said:
It's nice to win and it's nice to win by a lot. End of the day we beat a team who tried hard but they are a bottom side with key players missing so you would expect we would win by a lot being any good at all. Played a good brand of footy, tackled well and applied pressure well.

I've given the coach a hammering recently on here and there is no doubt it's justified but he's got some thing right which is good, more than he has been so far in his time at Carlton. The real test will be playing some half decent teams in the coming weeks. See whether it's real or whether it's just that we have played a couple of very weak sides. Voss has made mountains of mistakes but he's started to get more right recently. Perhaps his tenure at Carlton is going to be a slow burn. A lot of coaches have had to adapt to the new style of play and some have been slow to the show, unfortunately we're one of those teams.

I think he got three things very wrong that to me seem really obvious. Again you need to use players traits when selecting them for roles. Dow should have played ahead of Ed Curnow. Curnow is slow and not damaging in the least. They ran off him. He played half forward for no goals and no impact. Dow who has been playing the forward game really well in the VFL for two seasons and has the skills and leg speed would be ideal for this role. He kicked 3 goals straight for 29 disposals carrying a hard tag in the VFL, Ed Can't do that at VFL level anymore let alone AFL. Dow would have kicked goals in that AFL side, his pace would have added a lot. He's fitter than Fogarty and Cuningham so no issue with his tank. Dow would have also game us a genuine midfield rotation. He's a better onballer than Cuningham and Fogarty who were our midfield rotations for the day. This was a dumb decision by the coach. The other was how we used the ruckmen. Young is a strong overhead mark who has become too negative and indecisive as a defender to go for his marks. Silvagni is a very poor overhead mark but a strong competitor. Silvagni should have played defence, Young should have played forward. You would think after DeKoning, Curnow and McKay being such a good combination the game prior we might want to go back to the three tall structure forward. I'm also far more comfortable with Silvagni in the backline than Young. Those goals young had kicked on him because his awareness is terrible and he let forwards stand on their own, there is no way that happens to Silvagni. That one goal Silvagni kicked as a forward, I bet Young could have kicked 1 goal. You get away with these mistakes playing weak sides, you don't get away with them playing better sides like Fremantle for example. And this is why we have failed all season. Bad coaching. It's getting better but it's still a problem.

The brand of footy we are playing is modern finally, there is an effort to move the ball forward quicker and more direct. We are rotating the midfielders more and we are picking more quick players. However we aren't going to the full extent when it comes to getting team selecting right and embracing pace. The Ed Curnow selection over Dow or Binns was a howler. Hewett being the sub was ok but not a great deal better. These are two players we need to make a concerted effort to move on from if we are to be fully embracing the modern game and to move forward.

One thing about the modern game is that playing fast and going up the middle of the ground is in big time, it's a must. Good kicking is a must. This means leg speed is super important for defenders as they can't rely on team defence as much as they have in the past, they have to be able to defend one on one and that has brought some of the slower defenders undone. Young and Newman for example. It's also meant leg speed around the midfield is more important than ever. The ability to run ahead of the ball quickly to setup team defence to match the fast ball movement of teams as well as chase players quickly to effectively apply pressure and to break away from congestion for run and carry to generate fast ball movement has become very important to the modern game which is far more open, outside and quick. Voss not picking up on this, not embracing this and not moving on from favouring slow and old blokes towards favouring fast blokes is why we will probably miss finals this season.

We've added some speed to our team, our defence is better for it, our defenders can intercept and attack more. Our midfield applies a lot more pressure and tackles a lot more, we run and carry a lot more which supplies the forwards with better feed. So we have improved but it's probably too late. Let's hope not.

So the game plan in terms of how we move the ball and apply pressure is better but our team selection remains questionable. You can't keep picking slow legs if you wish to generate a modern game plan which involves fast pressure, fast ball movement, run and carry and a team which has the speed to run ahead and get behind the ball quickly. Cripps and Kennedy is borderline too many slow legs. Adding Curnow and Hewett. Weak teams we get away with it, playing the top 10 we won't get away with getting our team selection wrong like that.

No rucks and lack of genuine third tall forward was an issue but it was evened out by having a little more run and ground level play with Silvagni. Would controlling the hitouts and having that extra overhead marking option have been better? I still think so. I still think we would have been better off with TDK and Pittonet over Young and Silvagni.

Can't take too much away from belting a very weak team but we did play well, starting to play the right way and half getting the team selection right. Let's see what happens next week.

Cripps - Had a par game from him, thought he was running really well. He looks fit. Still got caught standing and wrestling at stoppages which he needs to try and avoid, a decent midfield coach would have be all over this with him. Just because your big and strong does not mean you stand and wrestle, use it with momentum to be hard to tackle and hard to stop. Cripps with his feet moving is dynamite, with him standing still he's run of the mill. He's getting better with this but work needs to be done. IMO he was probably standing and wrestling more because of the lack of a genuine ruckman in there so will let him off this week. But going forward, lets get those feet moving and disengage the contact a bit more.

Cerra - He's matured and he's taking advantage over us trying to be less Cripps focused in there. He's become a top level inside midfielder. Love him drifting forward, he's a terrific kick for goal. He's bigger and stronger than he was last season, lovely skills and strong tackler. He's proven to be worth every penny.

Docherty - Looked to play wing and back pocket. Thought he had a really good game. Loves to kick a goal. Strong over head and was solid as a rock when in defence. Found plenty of it and was neat with his disposal which isn't always the case.

Walsh - I've been critical of him in the past for accumulating possessions and having no impact on the game. Last few weeks he's been getting a little less of it but having a far greater impact on the game. His run and carry game is his bread and butter. Using his speed to apply pressure. This is much better football from Walsh. Starting at the back of contests moving through them running forward. Been calling for this for months and here we are. Nothing better than seeing Walsh running with the footy and hitting targets. This is him at his best.

Saad - Another player who has been down this season who is back to his best. Finding plenty of it, using it extremely well, run and carry. No doubt our more offensive game plan with more midfield pressure has helped him as it has all our defenders.

Acres - Thought it wasn't his best football, but it was still good. He's a top line wingman, he still had an impact, took a strong mark and kicked a goal, he kept making good position all day, not always the best user of the ball but by far not the worst. Thought he was solid and he's a competitor which I like about him.

McGovern - Thought he started a little slow on intensity then it built. He's someone who needs something to get him going. Looks like the operation he had has worked, haven't had a run of games out of him like this ever. Reckon we could get his brother over for a few seasons and fix him? McGovern is the ideal modern defender. He's super important for us because he has the leg speed and ability to defend one on one. This is something that has come back into the game this season with the fast ball movement. Gov has the height, speed and leap that is so so valuable to our side. On the flip side he brings ball winning, game sense, good kicking and intercept marking. Any idea he should be moved on is nuts IMO. These guys who can defend one on one and attack have become gold. As I said earlier the players who rely on team defence are getting caught out more and more and the ones who can defend one on one are becoming far more valuable.

McKay - Thought he was good. Did a lot of ground level stuff, marked well, presented well and kicked a few goals. One thing we are doing better is putting it out in front of our forwards who are on the move and not putting it on their heads. Harrys is near impossible to stop if you put it out in front of him and let him run and jump at it.

Kemp - What I said about McGovern I will say about Kemp. Another tallish defender who has the leg speed to defend one on one. He was not as prolific as he was last week but he held up a role and when the ball spills lose he makes up ground quick and gets to it. His kicking game was good. Gave us a bit of run and carry. Liked his game. He's a real modern day defender.

Fogarty - He's not the best player going around, he's been out of the team for a long time and earmarked to be delisted IMO. However he's hard at it, he can go on the ball for spurts and he gives us forward pressure. He was good. He's not a good kick, that's always going to be an issue but with players out and a forward line looking for guys who can apply pressure, lay a tackle and kick the odd goal he brings what we need. He's ahead of Fisher because of this. He's on his way to another contract.

Weitering - Another defender who is loving that we have more pace and pressure in the middle of the ground. He's back to intercepting. He's back to playing good football. Enjoyed seeing him display some aggression and play with his tail up. This is when he is at his best. Still find that when he takes a mark he takes too long to dispose of it. Would be saying to him not to ignore the runners past or the short side ways kicks, he's slow to move it at times.

Silvagni - We know what we will get from him and that is effort and competitiveness. Had a good day at ground level with his pressure and he found a few ground ball gets as a ruck. But. He gave away quite a few too many free kicks in the ruck and only took one overhead mark for the day. I don't think he's in the team with Pittonet and DeKoning. I think he is solid backup and would make a solid Sub. I think he had a solid game in this one but against the stronger sides with genuine rucks in close games this is not going to work for us.

Newman - He had a hand in their first 4 goals with the ball getting past him, he leaked badly in this game. He's one of these slow defenders who is getting caught out by the fast ball movement of the modern game and his lack of ability to defend one on one. Team defence is not something that can be relied on when the opposition move it quick and these slower defender, they get caught out and IMO Hawthorn were aware of this. I watched Cowan play in the VFL and gee he has come a long way this season. He's quick, he's a terrific kick, a long kick and very hard at it. Plays pretty tall too. Williams will be back next season. Newman is not far off falling out of the best 22 side as Plowman has the last few years. Smart player, leader and someone who was a lot more effective in the old style of the game but it's moved past him.

Kennedy - I thought he as ok but nothing special. Again a slower player who is just getting caught with the speed of the game going past these guys. I am really not convinced Kennedy should be ahead of Dow who to me is more of a modern game player. Thought Kennedy was ok, competed well but the game has changed and slow players on an AFL field get exposed.

Ed Curnow - He's been a great servant of the club but he is finished. This was a poor inclusion from the coach. Played half forward and the defenders just ran away from him. He's done. He's slow. I think every supporter knew that Binns or Dow would have been a far better selection than Ed. We have been pretty much proven correct. Dow with his pace and ability to kick goals playing half forward in this game could have sat at half forward then added insult to injury by going on the ball and giving us even more run and carry out of the middle. I can see it, I don't see how the coaches can't. The game has moved past Ed Curnow and towards Paddy Dow types. I do not get a lot of the team selection decisions.

Cuningham - He's half fit and playing just the sort of footy we need at half forward. Found a bit of it, used it nicely, used his leg speed to run carry and defend. Put his body in when he had to. Tackled and gave us a midfield rotation. He's a massive upgrade. Kicked 2 nice goals. He's a terrific kick.

Boyd - I Had Boyd as one of our BOG players. One on one defending was excellent. Spoils well, marks well, run and carry and he's a ripping good tackler. He was in everything, everything about his game was outstanding.

Young - Not a good game. Took 1 good overhead mark for the day, I thought playing ruck he would have taken more. Again he showed his lack of awareness with lose players in his area not getting covered. His spoiling looked weak. His body looks in terrible shape, he looks weak and built like a 2nd year player still. He's a good overhead mark but we saw none of it. Was a liability in defence. IMO the coach got this wrong. Young should have gone forward and Silvagni should have gone back.

Curnow - Early on he looked super dangerous. But he didn't kick straight early and that probably put him off a bit other wise this was going to be a 5 goal day for sure. Played a good game but it was good to not have to rely on he or Harry to kick all the goal.

Martin - His first halves are great but he disappears. If only we could get him fit. Loved watching him go in hard and hit bodies, this is Martin at his best. Lovely kick for goal, fast legs, smart player. Liked his game, can't wait to see him fit.

Cincotta - Started like a house on fire, looked a million bucks but went missing for a lot of the game. Not sure whether he was putting on a hard tag or not. I like him as a player. Good kick, strong body, can defend one on one, tackles well and has the leg speed to close in on a man and run and carry. Just has a habit of going to ground which I want to see out of his game. IMO still has some things to do educational wise at AFL level but the more we play him the better he will get. He's been a good selection.

Owies - He was the star the game before but a quiet game this week. Can't always have massive games as a small forward but he did little wrong. I do like how he plays.

Hewett - Came on for the last quarter and had very very minimal impact. I hope the coaches can see Dow is the better player. Out played him in his 1 quarter displays and at VFL level the other week. Hewett is a good natural footballer but, Sydney saw the game was changing as did a lot of other sides, they let him go and the game has moved past these big slow immobile mids. You can carry 1, maybe 2 but not 3 or 4 like we have been trying to do. Game has moved past him. He needs to find another club looking for a grunt mid or he will remain a VFL player waiting for Cripps or Kennedy to get injured. Coach needs to get this right or that slim hope of finals is gone.
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best post by a dungeon parolee.....
 
gbatman said:
It's nice to win and it's nice to win by a lot. End of the day we beat a team who tried hard but they are a bottom side with key players missing so you would expect we would win by a lot being any good at all. Played a good brand of footy, tackled well and applied pressure well.

I've given the coach a hammering recently on here and there is no doubt it's justified but he's got some thing right which is good, more than he has been so far in his time at Carlton. The real test will be playing some half decent teams in the coming weeks. See whether it's real or whether it's just that we have played a couple of very weak sides. Voss has made mountains of mistakes but he's started to get more right recently. Perhaps his tenure at Carlton is going to be a slow burn. A lot of coaches have had to adapt to the new style of play and some have been slow to the show, unfortunately we're one of those teams.

I think he got three things very wrong that to me seem really obvious. Again you need to use players traits when selecting them for roles. Dow should have played ahead of Ed Curnow. Curnow is slow and not damaging in the least. They ran off him. He played half forward for no goals and no impact. Dow who has been playing the forward game really well in the VFL for two seasons and has the skills and leg speed would be ideal for this role. He kicked 3 goals straight for 29 disposals carrying a hard tag in the VFL, Ed Can't do that at VFL level anymore let alone AFL. Dow would have kicked goals in that AFL side, his pace would have added a lot. He's fitter than Fogarty and Cuningham so no issue with his tank. Dow would have also game us a genuine midfield rotation. He's a better onballer than Cuningham and Fogarty who were our midfield rotations for the day. This was a dumb decision by the coach. The other was how we used the ruckmen. Young is a strong overhead mark who has become too negative and indecisive as a defender to go for his marks. Silvagni is a very poor overhead mark but a strong competitor. Silvagni should have played defence, Young should have played forward. You would think after DeKoning, Curnow and McKay being such a good combination the game prior we might want to go back to the three tall structure forward. I'm also far more comfortable with Silvagni in the backline than Young. Those goals young had kicked on him because his awareness is terrible and he let forwards stand on their own, there is no way that happens to Silvagni. That one goal Silvagni kicked as a forward, I bet Young could have kicked 1 goal. You get away with these mistakes playing weak sides, you don't get away with them playing better sides like Fremantle for example. And this is why we have failed all season. Bad coaching. It's getting better but it's still a problem.

The brand of footy we are playing is modern finally, there is an effort to move the ball forward quicker and more direct. We are rotating the midfielders more and we are picking more quick players. However we aren't going to the full extent when it comes to getting team selecting right and embracing pace. The Ed Curnow selection over Dow or Binns was a howler. Hewett being the sub was ok but not a great deal better. These are two players we need to make a concerted effort to move on from if we are to be fully embracing the modern game and to move forward.

One thing about the modern game is that playing fast and going up the middle of the ground is in big time, it's a must. Good kicking is a must. This means leg speed is super important for defenders as they can't rely on team defence as much as they have in the past, they have to be able to defend one on one and that has brought some of the slower defenders undone. Young and Newman for example. It's also meant leg speed around the midfield is more important than ever. The ability to run ahead of the ball quickly to setup team defence to match the fast ball movement of teams as well as chase players quickly to effectively apply pressure and to break away from congestion for run and carry to generate fast ball movement has become very important to the modern game which is far more open, outside and quick. Voss not picking up on this, not embracing this and not moving on from favouring slow and old blokes towards favouring fast blokes is why we will probably miss finals this season.

We've added some speed to our team, our defence is better for it, our defenders can intercept and attack more. Our midfield applies a lot more pressure and tackles a lot more, we run and carry a lot more which supplies the forwards with better feed. So we have improved but it's probably too late. Let's hope not.

So the game plan in terms of how we move the ball and apply pressure is better but our team selection remains questionable. You can't keep picking slow legs if you wish to generate a modern game plan which involves fast pressure, fast ball movement, run and carry and a team which has the speed to run ahead and get behind the ball quickly. Cripps and Kennedy is borderline too many slow legs. Adding Curnow and Hewett. Weak teams we get away with it, playing the top 10 we won't get away with getting our team selection wrong like that.

No rucks and lack of genuine third tall forward was an issue but it was evened out by having a little more run and ground level play with Silvagni. Would controlling the hitouts and having that extra overhead marking option have been better? I still think so. I still think we would have been better off with TDK and Pittonet over Young and Silvagni.

Can't take too much away from belting a very weak team but we did play well, starting to play the right way and half getting the team selection right. Let's see what happens next week.

Cripps - Had a par game from him, thought he was running really well. He looks fit. Still got caught standing and wrestling at stoppages which he needs to try and avoid, a decent midfield coach would have be all over this with him. Just because your big and strong does not mean you stand and wrestle, use it with momentum to be hard to tackle and hard to stop. Cripps with his feet moving is dynamite, with him standing still he's run of the mill. He's getting better with this but work needs to be done. IMO he was probably standing and wrestling more because of the lack of a genuine ruckman in there so will let him off this week. But going forward, lets get those feet moving and disengage the contact a bit more.

Cerra - He's matured and he's taking advantage over us trying to be less Cripps focused in there. He's become a top level inside midfielder. Love him drifting forward, he's a terrific kick for goal. He's bigger and stronger than he was last season, lovely skills and strong tackler. He's proven to be worth every penny.

Docherty - Looked to play wing and back pocket. Thought he had a really good game. Loves to kick a goal. Strong over head and was solid as a rock when in defence. Found plenty of it and was neat with his disposal which isn't always the case.

Walsh - I've been critical of him in the past for accumulating possessions and having no impact on the game. Last few weeks he's been getting a little less of it but having a far greater impact on the game. His run and carry game is his bread and butter. Using his speed to apply pressure. This is much better football from Walsh. Starting at the back of contests moving through them running forward. Been calling for this for months and here we are. Nothing better than seeing Walsh running with the footy and hitting targets. This is him at his best.

Saad - Another player who has been down this season who is back to his best. Finding plenty of it, using it extremely well, run and carry. No doubt our more offensive game plan with more midfield pressure has helped him as it has all our defenders.

Acres - Thought it wasn't his best football, but it was still good. He's a top line wingman, he still had an impact, took a strong mark and kicked a goal, he kept making good position all day, not always the best user of the ball but by far not the worst. Thought he was solid and he's a competitor which I like about him.

McGovern - Thought he started a little slow on intensity then it built. He's someone who needs something to get him going. Looks like the operation he had has worked, haven't had a run of games out of him like this ever. Reckon we could get his brother over for a few seasons and fix him? McGovern is the ideal modern defender. He's super important for us because he has the leg speed and ability to defend one on one. This is something that has come back into the game this season with the fast ball movement. Gov has the height, speed and leap that is so so valuable to our side. On the flip side he brings ball winning, game sense, good kicking and intercept marking. Any idea he should be moved on is nuts IMO. These guys who can defend one on one and attack have become gold. As I said earlier the players who rely on team defence are getting caught out more and more and the ones who can defend one on one are becoming far more valuable.

McKay - Thought he was good. Did a lot of ground level stuff, marked well, presented well and kicked a few goals. One thing we are doing better is putting it out in front of our forwards who are on the move and not putting it on their heads. Harrys is near impossible to stop if you put it out in front of him and let him run and jump at it.

Kemp - What I said about McGovern I will say about Kemp. Another tallish defender who has the leg speed to defend one on one. He was not as prolific as he was last week but he held up a role and when the ball spills lose he makes up ground quick and gets to it. His kicking game was good. Gave us a bit of run and carry. Liked his game. He's a real modern day defender.

Fogarty - He's not the best player going around, he's been out of the team for a long time and earmarked to be delisted IMO. However he's hard at it, he can go on the ball for spurts and he gives us forward pressure. He was good. He's not a good kick, that's always going to be an issue but with players out and a forward line looking for guys who can apply pressure, lay a tackle and kick the odd goal he brings what we need. He's ahead of Fisher because of this. He's on his way to another contract.

Weitering - Another defender who is loving that we have more pace and pressure in the middle of the ground. He's back to intercepting. He's back to playing good football. Enjoyed seeing him display some aggression and play with his tail up. This is when he is at his best. Still find that when he takes a mark he takes too long to dispose of it. Would be saying to him not to ignore the runners past or the short side ways kicks, he's slow to move it at times.

Silvagni - We know what we will get from him and that is effort and competitiveness. Had a good day at ground level with his pressure and he found a few ground ball gets as a ruck. But. He gave away quite a few too many free kicks in the ruck and only took one overhead mark for the day. I don't think he's in the team with Pittonet and DeKoning. I think he is solid backup and would make a solid Sub. I think he had a solid game in this one but against the stronger sides with genuine rucks in close games this is not going to work for us.

Newman - He had a hand in their first 4 goals with the ball getting past him, he leaked badly in this game. He's one of these slow defenders who is getting caught out by the fast ball movement of the modern game and his lack of ability to defend one on one. Team defence is not something that can be relied on when the opposition move it quick and these slower defender, they get caught out and IMO Hawthorn were aware of this. I watched Cowan play in the VFL and gee he has come a long way this season. He's quick, he's a terrific kick, a long kick and very hard at it. Plays pretty tall too. Williams will be back next season. Newman is not far off falling out of the best 22 side as Plowman has the last few years. Smart player, leader and someone who was a lot more effective in the old style of the game but it's moved past him.

Kennedy - I thought he as ok but nothing special. Again a slower player who is just getting caught with the speed of the game going past these guys. I am really not convinced Kennedy should be ahead of Dow who to me is more of a modern game player. Thought Kennedy was ok, competed well but the game has changed and slow players on an AFL field get exposed.

Ed Curnow - He's been a great servant of the club but he is finished. This was a poor inclusion from the coach. Played half forward and the defenders just ran away from him. He's done. He's slow. I think every supporter knew that Binns or Dow would have been a far better selection than Ed. We have been pretty much proven correct. Dow with his pace and ability to kick goals playing half forward in this game could have sat at half forward then added insult to injury by going on the ball and giving us even more run and carry out of the middle. I can see it, I don't see how the coaches can't. The game has moved past Ed Curnow and towards Paddy Dow types. I do not get a lot of the team selection decisions.

Cuningham - He's half fit and playing just the sort of footy we need at half forward. Found a bit of it, used it nicely, used his leg speed to run carry and defend. Put his body in when he had to. Tackled and gave us a midfield rotation. He's a massive upgrade. Kicked 2 nice goals. He's a terrific kick.

Boyd - I Had Boyd as one of our BOG players. One on one defending was excellent. Spoils well, marks well, run and carry and he's a ripping good tackler. He was in everything, everything about his game was outstanding.

Young - Not a good game. Took 1 good overhead mark for the day, I thought playing ruck he would have taken more. Again he showed his lack of awareness with lose players in his area not getting covered. His spoiling looked weak. His body looks in terrible shape, he looks weak and built like a 2nd year player still. He's a good overhead mark but we saw none of it. Was a liability in defence. IMO the coach got this wrong. Young should have gone forward and Silvagni should have gone back.

Curnow - Early on he looked super dangerous. But he didn't kick straight early and that probably put him off a bit other wise this was going to be a 5 goal day for sure. Played a good game but it was good to not have to rely on he or Harry to kick all the goal.

Martin - His first halves are great but he disappears. If only we could get him fit. Loved watching him go in hard and hit bodies, this is Martin at his best. Lovely kick for goal, fast legs, smart player. Liked his game, can't wait to see him fit.

Cincotta - Started like a house on fire, looked a million bucks but went missing for a lot of the game. Not sure whether he was putting on a hard tag or not. I like him as a player. Good kick, strong body, can defend one on one, tackles well and has the leg speed to close in on a man and run and carry. Just has a habit of going to ground which I want to see out of his game. IMO still has some things to do educational wise at AFL level but the more we play him the better he will get. He's been a good selection.

Owies - He was the star the game before but a quiet game this week. Can't always have massive games as a small forward but he did little wrong. I do like how he plays.

Hewett - Came on for the last quarter and had very very minimal impact. I hope the coaches can see Dow is the better player. Out played him in his 1 quarter displays and at VFL level the other week. Hewett is a good natural footballer but, Sydney saw the game was changing as did a lot of other sides, they let him go and the game has moved past these big slow immobile mids. You can carry 1, maybe 2 but not 3 or 4 like we have been trying to do. Game has moved past him. He needs to find another club looking for a grunt mid or he will remain a VFL player waiting for Cripps or Kennedy to get injured. Coach needs to get this right or that slim hope of finals is gone.
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The club should get u to write the magoos match reports. FMD that’s a post and a half!
 
Accidental genius said:
Martin’s mark on the goal line was a beauty. Looked like he pulled the ball back on his second grab as his body propelled over the goal line. Smart player. That sort of play is instinctive. Can’t really teach it.
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Martin's best is easily elite.....

Get 2 or 3 snags from him every week, plus a few GAs and kapow!
 
gbatman said:
It's nice to win and it's nice to win by a lot. End of the day we beat a team who tried hard but they are a bottom side with key players missing so you would expect we would win by a lot being any good at all. Played a good brand of footy, tackled well and applied pressure well.

I've given the coach a hammering recently on here and there is no doubt it's justified but he's got some thing right which is good, more than he has been so far in his time at Carlton. The real test will be playing some half decent teams in the coming weeks. See whether it's real or whether it's just that we have played a couple of very weak sides. Voss has made mountains of mistakes but he's started to get more right recently. Perhaps his tenure at Carlton is going to be a slow burn. A lot of coaches have had to adapt to the new style of play and some have been slow to the show, unfortunately we're one of those teams.

I think he got three things very wrong that to me seem really obvious. Again you need to use players traits when selecting them for roles. Dow should have played ahead of Ed Curnow. Curnow is slow and not damaging in the least. They ran off him. He played half forward for no goals and no impact. Dow who has been playing the forward game really well in the VFL for two seasons and has the skills and leg speed would be ideal for this role. He kicked 3 goals straight for 29 disposals carrying a hard tag in the VFL, Ed Can't do that at VFL level anymore let alone AFL. Dow would have kicked goals in that AFL side, his pace would have added a lot. He's fitter than Fogarty and Cuningham so no issue with his tank. Dow would have also game us a genuine midfield rotation. He's a better onballer than Cuningham and Fogarty who were our midfield rotations for the day. This was a dumb decision by the coach. The other was how we used the ruckmen. Young is a strong overhead mark who has become too negative and indecisive as a defender to go for his marks. Silvagni is a very poor overhead mark but a strong competitor. Silvagni should have played defence, Young should have played forward. You would think after DeKoning, Curnow and McKay being such a good combination the game prior we might want to go back to the three tall structure forward. I'm also far more comfortable with Silvagni in the backline than Young. Those goals young had kicked on him because his awareness is terrible and he let forwards stand on their own, there is no way that happens to Silvagni. That one goal Silvagni kicked as a forward, I bet Young could have kicked 1 goal. You get away with these mistakes playing weak sides, you don't get away with them playing better sides like Fremantle for example. And this is why we have failed all season. Bad coaching. It's getting better but it's still a problem.

The brand of footy we are playing is modern finally, there is an effort to move the ball forward quicker and more direct. We are rotating the midfielders more and we are picking more quick players. However we aren't going to the full extent when it comes to getting team selecting right and embracing pace. The Ed Curnow selection over Dow or Binns was a howler. Hewett being the sub was ok but not a great deal better. These are two players we need to make a concerted effort to move on from if we are to be fully embracing the modern game and to move forward.

One thing about the modern game is that playing fast and going up the middle of the ground is in big time, it's a must. Good kicking is a must. This means leg speed is super important for defenders as they can't rely on team defence as much as they have in the past, they have to be able to defend one on one and that has brought some of the slower defenders undone. Young and Newman for example. It's also meant leg speed around the midfield is more important than ever. The ability to run ahead of the ball quickly to setup team defence to match the fast ball movement of teams as well as chase players quickly to effectively apply pressure and to break away from congestion for run and carry to generate fast ball movement has become very important to the modern game which is far more open, outside and quick. Voss not picking up on this, not embracing this and not moving on from favouring slow and old blokes towards favouring fast blokes is why we will probably miss finals this season.

We've added some speed to our team, our defence is better for it, our defenders can intercept and attack more. Our midfield applies a lot more pressure and tackles a lot more, we run and carry a lot more which supplies the forwards with better feed. So we have improved but it's probably too late. Let's hope not.

So the game plan in terms of how we move the ball and apply pressure is better but our team selection remains questionable. You can't keep picking slow legs if you wish to generate a modern game plan which involves fast pressure, fast ball movement, run and carry and a team which has the speed to run ahead and get behind the ball quickly. Cripps and Kennedy is borderline too many slow legs. Adding Curnow and Hewett. Weak teams we get away with it, playing the top 10 we won't get away with getting our team selection wrong like that.

No rucks and lack of genuine third tall forward was an issue but it was evened out by having a little more run and ground level play with Silvagni. Would controlling the hitouts and having that extra overhead marking option have been better? I still think so. I still think we would have been better off with TDK and Pittonet over Young and Silvagni.

Can't take too much away from belting a very weak team but we did play well, starting to play the right way and half getting the team selection right. Let's see what happens next week.

Cripps - Had a par game from him, thought he was running really well. He looks fit. Still got caught standing and wrestling at stoppages which he needs to try and avoid, a decent midfield coach would have be all over this with him. Just because your big and strong does not mean you stand and wrestle, use it with momentum to be hard to tackle and hard to stop. Cripps with his feet moving is dynamite, with him standing still he's run of the mill. He's getting better with this but work needs to be done. IMO he was probably standing and wrestling more because of the lack of a genuine ruckman in there so will let him off this week. But going forward, lets get those feet moving and disengage the contact a bit more.

Cerra - He's matured and he's taking advantage over us trying to be less Cripps focused in there. He's become a top level inside midfielder. Love him drifting forward, he's a terrific kick for goal. He's bigger and stronger than he was last season, lovely skills and strong tackler. He's proven to be worth every penny.

Docherty - Looked to play wing and back pocket. Thought he had a really good game. Loves to kick a goal. Strong over head and was solid as a rock when in defence. Found plenty of it and was neat with his disposal which isn't always the case.

Walsh - I've been critical of him in the past for accumulating possessions and having no impact on the game. Last few weeks he's been getting a little less of it but having a far greater impact on the game. His run and carry game is his bread and butter. Using his speed to apply pressure. This is much better football from Walsh. Starting at the back of contests moving through them running forward. Been calling for this for months and here we are. Nothing better than seeing Walsh running with the footy and hitting targets. This is him at his best.

Saad - Another player who has been down this season who is back to his best. Finding plenty of it, using it extremely well, run and carry. No doubt our more offensive game plan with more midfield pressure has helped him as it has all our defenders.

Acres - Thought it wasn't his best football, but it was still good. He's a top line wingman, he still had an impact, took a strong mark and kicked a goal, he kept making good position all day, not always the best user of the ball but by far not the worst. Thought he was solid and he's a competitor which I like about him.

McGovern - Thought he started a little slow on intensity then it built. He's someone who needs something to get him going. Looks like the operation he had has worked, haven't had a run of games out of him like this ever. Reckon we could get his brother over for a few seasons and fix him? McGovern is the ideal modern defender. He's super important for us because he has the leg speed and ability to defend one on one. This is something that has come back into the game this season with the fast ball movement. Gov has the height, speed and leap that is so so valuable to our side. On the flip side he brings ball winning, game sense, good kicking and intercept marking. Any idea he should be moved on is nuts IMO. These guys who can defend one on one and attack have become gold. As I said earlier the players who rely on team defence are getting caught out more and more and the ones who can defend one on one are becoming far more valuable.

McKay - Thought he was good. Did a lot of ground level stuff, marked well, presented well and kicked a few goals. One thing we are doing better is putting it out in front of our forwards who are on the move and not putting it on their heads. Harrys is near impossible to stop if you put it out in front of him and let him run and jump at it.

Kemp - What I said about McGovern I will say about Kemp. Another tallish defender who has the leg speed to defend one on one. He was not as prolific as he was last week but he held up a role and when the ball spills lose he makes up ground quick and gets to it. His kicking game was good. Gave us a bit of run and carry. Liked his game. He's a real modern day defender.

Fogarty - He's not the best player going around, he's been out of the team for a long time and earmarked to be delisted IMO. However he's hard at it, he can go on the ball for spurts and he gives us forward pressure. He was good. He's not a good kick, that's always going to be an issue but with players out and a forward line looking for guys who can apply pressure, lay a tackle and kick the odd goal he brings what we need. He's ahead of Fisher because of this. He's on his way to another contract.

Weitering - Another defender who is loving that we have more pace and pressure in the middle of the ground. He's back to intercepting. He's back to playing good football. Enjoyed seeing him display some aggression and play with his tail up. This is when he is at his best. Still find that when he takes a mark he takes too long to dispose of it. Would be saying to him not to ignore the runners past or the short side ways kicks, he's slow to move it at times.

Silvagni - We know what we will get from him and that is effort and competitiveness. Had a good day at ground level with his pressure and he found a few ground ball gets as a ruck. But. He gave away quite a few too many free kicks in the ruck and only took one overhead mark for the day. I don't think he's in the team with Pittonet and DeKoning. I think he is solid backup and would make a solid Sub. I think he had a solid game in this one but against the stronger sides with genuine rucks in close games this is not going to work for us.

Newman - He had a hand in their first 4 goals with the ball getting past him, he leaked badly in this game. He's one of these slow defenders who is getting caught out by the fast ball movement of the modern game and his lack of ability to defend one on one. Team defence is not something that can be relied on when the opposition move it quick and these slower defender, they get caught out and IMO Hawthorn were aware of this. I watched Cowan play in the VFL and gee he has come a long way this season. He's quick, he's a terrific kick, a long kick and very hard at it. Plays pretty tall too. Williams will be back next season. Newman is not far off falling out of the best 22 side as Plowman has the last few years. Smart player, leader and someone who was a lot more effective in the old style of the game but it's moved past him.

Kennedy - I thought he as ok but nothing special. Again a slower player who is just getting caught with the speed of the game going past these guys. I am really not convinced Kennedy should be ahead of Dow who to me is more of a modern game player. Thought Kennedy was ok, competed well but the game has changed and slow players on an AFL field get exposed.

Ed Curnow - He's been a great servant of the club but he is finished. This was a poor inclusion from the coach. Played half forward and the defenders just ran away from him. He's done. He's slow. I think every supporter knew that Binns or Dow would have been a far better selection than Ed. We have been pretty much proven correct. Dow with his pace and ability to kick goals playing half forward in this game could have sat at half forward then added insult to injury by going on the ball and giving us even more run and carry out of the middle. I can see it, I don't see how the coaches can't. The game has moved past Ed Curnow and towards Paddy Dow types. I do not get a lot of the team selection decisions.

Cuningham - He's half fit and playing just the sort of footy we need at half forward. Found a bit of it, used it nicely, used his leg speed to run carry and defend. Put his body in when he had to. Tackled and gave us a midfield rotation. He's a massive upgrade. Kicked 2 nice goals. He's a terrific kick.

Boyd - I Had Boyd as one of our BOG players. One on one defending was excellent. Spoils well, marks well, run and carry and he's a ripping good tackler. He was in everything, everything about his game was outstanding.

Young - Not a good game. Took 1 good overhead mark for the day, I thought playing ruck he would have taken more. Again he showed his lack of awareness with lose players in his area not getting covered. His spoiling looked weak. His body looks in terrible shape, he looks weak and built like a 2nd year player still. He's a good overhead mark but we saw none of it. Was a liability in defence. IMO the coach got this wrong. Young should have gone forward and Silvagni should have gone back.

Curnow - Early on he looked super dangerous. But he didn't kick straight early and that probably put him off a bit other wise this was going to be a 5 goal day for sure. Played a good game but it was good to not have to rely on he or Harry to kick all the goal.

Martin - His first halves are great but he disappears. If only we could get him fit. Loved watching him go in hard and hit bodies, this is Martin at his best. Lovely kick for goal, fast legs, smart player. Liked his game, can't wait to see him fit.

Cincotta - Started like a house on fire, looked a million bucks but went missing for a lot of the game. Not sure whether he was putting on a hard tag or not. I like him as a player. Good kick, strong body, can defend one on one, tackles well and has the leg speed to close in on a man and run and carry. Just has a habit of going to ground which I want to see out of his game. IMO still has some things to do educational wise at AFL level but the more we play him the better he will get. He's been a good selection.

Owies - He was the star the game before but a quiet game this week. Can't always have massive games as a small forward but he did little wrong. I do like how he plays.

Hewett - Came on for the last quarter and had very very minimal impact. I hope the coaches can see Dow is the better player. Out played him in his 1 quarter displays and at VFL level the other week. Hewett is a good natural footballer but, Sydney saw the game was changing as did a lot of other sides, they let him go and the game has moved past these big slow immobile mids. You can carry 1, maybe 2 but not 3 or 4 like we have been trying to do. Game has moved past him. He needs to find another club looking for a grunt mid or he will remain a VFL player waiting for Cripps or Kennedy to get injured. Coach needs to get this right or that slim hope of finals is gone.
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Agree with almost everything you said. The key, as you said, is to maintain speed in the team and that's why someone like Cotterell is a lock. Not a star but he plays his role well enough, tough, fast, takes marks and kicks goals. Adding Cunningham, Cinc (who are brilliant both below the knees) and the return of Martin has no doubt had a huge impact on our ball movement. Players are now getting on their bike to run in chains.

Hewett is the interesting one. From what I have heard from my only well connected source is the issue with Hewett is they can never get his back right. Don't forget, the first half of last year he was clearly our second best midfielder until he started missing games, again.
 

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carlton_99 said:
Never been about us being slow (pace-wise) imo but just not making quick decisions with the ball. The addition of Kemp, Boyd and Cincotta in defence help with that. Newman back also unlocks Saad a bit.
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Nope, whilst I agree poor decision making has been a significant factor all year, it's been leg speed that so many have been banging on about....
 
Reckon he's stated contract negotiaitons.... was very invested yesterday.

McGovern - Thought he started a little slow on intensity then it built. He's someone who needs something to get him going. Looks like the operation he had has worked, haven't had a run of games out of him like this ever. Reckon we could get his brother over for a few seasons and fix him? McGovern is the ideal modern defender. He's super important for us because he has the leg speed and ability to defend one on one. This is something that has come back into the game this season with the fast ball movement. Gov has the height, speed and leap that is so so valuable to our side. On the flip side he brings ball winning, game sense, good kicking and intercept marking. Any idea he should be moved on is nuts IMO. These guys who can defend one on one and attack have become gold. As I said earlier the players who rely on team defence are getting caught out more and more and the ones who can defend one on one are becoming far more valuable.
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gbatman said:
It's nice to win and it's nice to win by a lot. End of the day we beat a team who tried hard but they are a bottom side with key players missing so you would expect we would win by a lot being any good at all. Played a good brand of footy, tackled well and applied pressure well.

I've given the coach a hammering recently on here and there is no doubt it's justified but he's got some thing right which is good, more than he has been so far in his time at Carlton. The real test will be playing some half decent teams in the coming weeks. See whether it's real or whether it's just that we have played a couple of very weak sides. Voss has made mountains of mistakes but he's started to get more right recently. Perhaps his tenure at Carlton is going to be a slow burn. A lot of coaches have had to adapt to the new style of play and some have been slow to the show, unfortunately we're one of those teams.

I think he got three things very wrong that to me seem really obvious. Again you need to use players traits when selecting them for roles. Dow should have played ahead of Ed Curnow. Curnow is slow and not damaging in the least. They ran off him. He played half forward for no goals and no impact. Dow who has been playing the forward game really well in the VFL for two seasons and has the skills and leg speed would be ideal for this role. He kicked 3 goals straight for 29 disposals carrying a hard tag in the VFL, Ed Can't do that at VFL level anymore let alone AFL. Dow would have kicked goals in that AFL side, his pace would have added a lot. He's fitter than Fogarty and Cuningham so no issue with his tank. Dow would have also game us a genuine midfield rotation. He's a better onballer than Cuningham and Fogarty who were our midfield rotations for the day. This was a dumb decision by the coach. The other was how we used the ruckmen. Young is a strong overhead mark who has become too negative and indecisive as a defender to go for his marks. Silvagni is a very poor overhead mark but a strong competitor. Silvagni should have played defence, Young should have played forward. You would think after DeKoning, Curnow and McKay being such a good combination the game prior we might want to go back to the three tall structure forward. I'm also far more comfortable with Silvagni in the backline than Young. Those goals young had kicked on him because his awareness is terrible and he let forwards stand on their own, there is no way that happens to Silvagni. That one goal Silvagni kicked as a forward, I bet Young could have kicked 1 goal. You get away with these mistakes playing weak sides, you don't get away with them playing better sides like Fremantle for example. And this is why we have failed all season. Bad coaching. It's getting better but it's still a problem.

The brand of footy we are playing is modern finally, there is an effort to move the ball forward quicker and more direct. We are rotating the midfielders more and we are picking more quick players. However we aren't going to the full extent when it comes to getting team selecting right and embracing pace. The Ed Curnow selection over Dow or Binns was a howler. Hewett being the sub was ok but not a great deal better. These are two players we need to make a concerted effort to move on from if we are to be fully embracing the modern game and to move forward.

One thing about the modern game is that playing fast and going up the middle of the ground is in big time, it's a must. Good kicking is a must. This means leg speed is super important for defenders as they can't rely on team defence as much as they have in the past, they have to be able to defend one on one and that has brought some of the slower defenders undone. Young and Newman for example. It's also meant leg speed around the midfield is more important than ever. The ability to run ahead of the ball quickly to setup team defence to match the fast ball movement of teams as well as chase players quickly to effectively apply pressure and to break away from congestion for run and carry to generate fast ball movement has become very important to the modern game which is far more open, outside and quick. Voss not picking up on this, not embracing this and not moving on from favouring slow and old blokes towards favouring fast blokes is why we will probably miss finals this season.

We've added some speed to our team, our defence is better for it, our defenders can intercept and attack more. Our midfield applies a lot more pressure and tackles a lot more, we run and carry a lot more which supplies the forwards with better feed. So we have improved but it's probably too late. Let's hope not.

So the game plan in terms of how we move the ball and apply pressure is better but our team selection remains questionable. You can't keep picking slow legs if you wish to generate a modern game plan which involves fast pressure, fast ball movement, run and carry and a team which has the speed to run ahead and get behind the ball quickly. Cripps and Kennedy is borderline too many slow legs. Adding Curnow and Hewett. Weak teams we get away with it, playing the top 10 we won't get away with getting our team selection wrong like that.

No rucks and lack of genuine third tall forward was an issue but it was evened out by having a little more run and ground level play with Silvagni. Would controlling the hitouts and having that extra overhead marking option have been better? I still think so. I still think we would have been better off with TDK and Pittonet over Young and Silvagni.

Can't take too much away from belting a very weak team but we did play well, starting to play the right way and half getting the team selection right. Let's see what happens next week.

Cripps - Had a par game from him, thought he was running really well. He looks fit. Still got caught standing and wrestling at stoppages which he needs to try and avoid, a decent midfield coach would have be all over this with him. Just because your big and strong does not mean you stand and wrestle, use it with momentum to be hard to tackle and hard to stop. Cripps with his feet moving is dynamite, with him standing still he's run of the mill. He's getting better with this but work needs to be done. IMO he was probably standing and wrestling more because of the lack of a genuine ruckman in there so will let him off this week. But going forward, lets get those feet moving and disengage the contact a bit more.

Cerra - He's matured and he's taking advantage over us trying to be less Cripps focused in there. He's become a top level inside midfielder. Love him drifting forward, he's a terrific kick for goal. He's bigger and stronger than he was last season, lovely skills and strong tackler. He's proven to be worth every penny.

Docherty - Looked to play wing and back pocket. Thought he had a really good game. Loves to kick a goal. Strong over head and was solid as a rock when in defence. Found plenty of it and was neat with his disposal which isn't always the case.

Walsh - I've been critical of him in the past for accumulating possessions and having no impact on the game. Last few weeks he's been getting a little less of it but having a far greater impact on the game. His run and carry game is his bread and butter. Using his speed to apply pressure. This is much better football from Walsh. Starting at the back of contests moving through them running forward. Been calling for this for months and here we are. Nothing better than seeing Walsh running with the footy and hitting targets. This is him at his best.

Saad - Another player who has been down this season who is back to his best. Finding plenty of it, using it extremely well, run and carry. No doubt our more offensive game plan with more midfield pressure has helped him as it has all our defenders.

Acres - Thought it wasn't his best football, but it was still good. He's a top line wingman, he still had an impact, took a strong mark and kicked a goal, he kept making good position all day, not always the best user of the ball but by far not the worst. Thought he was solid and he's a competitor which I like about him.

McGovern - Thought he started a little slow on intensity then it built. He's someone who needs something to get him going. Looks like the operation he had has worked, haven't had a run of games out of him like this ever. Reckon we could get his brother over for a few seasons and fix him? McGovern is the ideal modern defender. He's super important for us because he has the leg speed and ability to defend one on one. This is something that has come back into the game this season with the fast ball movement. Gov has the height, speed and leap that is so so valuable to our side. On the flip side he brings ball winning, game sense, good kicking and intercept marking. Any idea he should be moved on is nuts IMO. These guys who can defend one on one and attack have become gold. As I said earlier the players who rely on team defence are getting caught out more and more and the ones who can defend one on one are becoming far more valuable.

McKay - Thought he was good. Did a lot of ground level stuff, marked well, presented well and kicked a few goals. One thing we are doing better is putting it out in front of our forwards who are on the move and not putting it on their heads. Harrys is near impossible to stop if you put it out in front of him and let him run and jump at it.

Kemp - What I said about McGovern I will say about Kemp. Another tallish defender who has the leg speed to defend one on one. He was not as prolific as he was last week but he held up a role and when the ball spills lose he makes up ground quick and gets to it. His kicking game was good. Gave us a bit of run and carry. Liked his game. He's a real modern day defender.

Fogarty - He's not the best player going around, he's been out of the team for a long time and earmarked to be delisted IMO. However he's hard at it, he can go on the ball for spurts and he gives us forward pressure. He was good. He's not a good kick, that's always going to be an issue but with players out and a forward line looking for guys who can apply pressure, lay a tackle and kick the odd goal he brings what we need. He's ahead of Fisher because of this. He's on his way to another contract.

Weitering - Another defender who is loving that we have more pace and pressure in the middle of the ground. He's back to intercepting. He's back to playing good football. Enjoyed seeing him display some aggression and play with his tail up. This is when he is at his best. Still find that when he takes a mark he takes too long to dispose of it. Would be saying to him not to ignore the runners past or the short side ways kicks, he's slow to move it at times.

Silvagni - We know what we will get from him and that is effort and competitiveness. Had a good day at ground level with his pressure and he found a few ground ball gets as a ruck. But. He gave away quite a few too many free kicks in the ruck and only took one overhead mark for the day. I don't think he's in the team with Pittonet and DeKoning. I think he is solid backup and would make a solid Sub. I think he had a solid game in this one but against the stronger sides with genuine rucks in close games this is not going to work for us.

Newman - He had a hand in their first 4 goals with the ball getting past him, he leaked badly in this game. He's one of these slow defenders who is getting caught out by the fast ball movement of the modern game and his lack of ability to defend one on one. Team defence is not something that can be relied on when the opposition move it quick and these slower defender, they get caught out and IMO Hawthorn were aware of this. I watched Cowan play in the VFL and gee he has come a long way this season. He's quick, he's a terrific kick, a long kick and very hard at it. Plays pretty tall too. Williams will be back next season. Newman is not far off falling out of the best 22 side as Plowman has the last few years. Smart player, leader and someone who was a lot more effective in the old style of the game but it's moved past him.

Kennedy - I thought he as ok but nothing special. Again a slower player who is just getting caught with the speed of the game going past these guys. I am really not convinced Kennedy should be ahead of Dow who to me is more of a modern game player. Thought Kennedy was ok, competed well but the game has changed and slow players on an AFL field get exposed.

Ed Curnow - He's been a great servant of the club but he is finished. This was a poor inclusion from the coach. Played half forward and the defenders just ran away from him. He's done. He's slow. I think every supporter knew that Binns or Dow would have been a far better selection than Ed. We have been pretty much proven correct. Dow with his pace and ability to kick goals playing half forward in this game could have sat at half forward then added insult to injury by going on the ball and giving us even more run and carry out of the middle. I can see it, I don't see how the coaches can't. The game has moved past Ed Curnow and towards Paddy Dow types. I do not get a lot of the team selection decisions.

Cuningham - He's half fit and playing just the sort of footy we need at half forward. Found a bit of it, used it nicely, used his leg speed to run carry and defend. Put his body in when he had to. Tackled and gave us a midfield rotation. He's a massive upgrade. Kicked 2 nice goals. He's a terrific kick.

Boyd - I Had Boyd as one of our BOG players. One on one defending was excellent. Spoils well, marks well, run and carry and he's a ripping good tackler. He was in everything, everything about his game was outstanding.

Young - Not a good game. Took 1 good overhead mark for the day, I thought playing ruck he would have taken more. Again he showed his lack of awareness with lose players in his area not getting covered. His spoiling looked weak. His body looks in terrible shape, he looks weak and built like a 2nd year player still. He's a good overhead mark but we saw none of it. Was a liability in defence. IMO the coach got this wrong. Young should have gone forward and Silvagni should have gone back.

Curnow - Early on he looked super dangerous. But he didn't kick straight early and that probably put him off a bit other wise this was going to be a 5 goal day for sure. Played a good game but it was good to not have to rely on he or Harry to kick all the goal.

Martin - His first halves are great but he disappears. If only we could get him fit. Loved watching him go in hard and hit bodies, this is Martin at his best. Lovely kick for goal, fast legs, smart player. Liked his game, can't wait to see him fit.

Cincotta - Started like a house on fire, looked a million bucks but went missing for a lot of the game. Not sure whether he was putting on a hard tag or not. I like him as a player. Good kick, strong body, can defend one on one, tackles well and has the leg speed to close in on a man and run and carry. Just has a habit of going to ground which I want to see out of his game. IMO still has some things to do educational wise at AFL level but the more we play him the better he will get. He's been a good selection.

Owies - He was the star the game before but a quiet game this week. Can't always have massive games as a small forward but he did little wrong. I do like how he plays.

Hewett - Came on for the last quarter and had very very minimal impact. I hope the coaches can see Dow is the better player. Out played him in his 1 quarter displays and at VFL level the other week. Hewett is a good natural footballer but, Sydney saw the game was changing as did a lot of other sides, they let him go and the game has moved past these big slow immobile mids. You can carry 1, maybe 2 but not 3 or 4 like we have been trying to do. Game has moved past him. He needs to find another club looking for a grunt mid or he will remain a VFL player waiting for Cripps or Kennedy to get injured. Coach needs to get this right or that slim hope of finals is gone.
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Good post
 
Ezayyak said:
Agree with almost everything you said. The key, as you said, is to maintain speed in the team and that's why someone like Cotterell is a lock. Not a star but he plays his role well enough, tough, fast, takes marks and kicks goals. Adding Cunningham, Cinc (who are brilliant both below the knees) and the return of Martin has no doubt had a huge impact on our ball movement. Players are now getting on their bike to run in chains.

Hewett is the interesting one. From what I have heard from my only well connected source is the issue with Hewett is they can never get his back right. Don't forget, the first half of last year he was clearly our second best midfielder until he started missing games, again.
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Backs are hard, a lot of the time if you have a bad back it's always there. I think with Hewett he would have fitted in in another era. The game began to change massively in the mid part of last season and it's just moved past a lot of the slower players in the league.

Things have come into the game such as you have to be able to defend one on one as fast and direct ball movement has broken up the team defence tactics teams use a lot. Not only this, teams are more willing to go up the middle and hence turn it over there exposing their defence. This pretty much puts Newman and Young out of a job IMO. Too slow, need team defence to defend.

Pressure used to be applied by having numbers around the ball and keeping the opposition wide along the boundary and in congestion. You can't do that now, teams switch play high, they go up through the middle and simply avoid the defensive clusters. Pressure is now applied by leg speed. You also need to be able to kick really well when playing high risk footy up the middle. Leg speed to get ahead of the play and behind the play is important, the ball is moving up and down quicker so players have to be quicker to setup team defence and setup their attack going forward. This takes guys like Ed Curnow, Hewett, Kennedy out of the game. Hewett and Ed are probably the slowest and both not a great kicks. Means the game has gone past them as well.

The more we try and play modern footy, the more guys like Young, Hewett, Curnow, Newman are going to burn us so we just need to move on. We have the players but the coach seems a bit unwilling to select them.

I think if we embrace things properly and select the team correctly we will go into next season really really strongly. We do have the pace to do it but the coaching and team selection is not coming together with the game play quite yet although the last few rounds have brought these two things a lot closer than ever before.

As for the game style. Teams started to change over around the middle of last season, a lot of teams worked on the change over in the off season. Collingwood were the first to change over, it nearly won them a flag and they probably win it this season purely because they are on the front foot and ahead of the competition. Teams getting a grip on the changes to the game coincide with us going from winning games to losing a lot around the middle of last year.

Coaching has killed us since then, we have been left in the wake of a lot of sides and made a lot of mistakes and are only playing catchup now. Hopefully that results in us winning again.
 
gbatman said:
Backs are hard, a lot of the time if you have a bad back it's always there. I think with Hewett he would have fitted in in another era. The game began to change massively in the mid part of last season and it's just moved past a lot of the slower players in the league.

Things have come into the game such as you have to be able to defend one on one as fast and direct ball movement has broken up the team defence tactics teams use a lot. Not only this, teams are more willing to go up the middle and hence turn it over there exposing their defence. This pretty much puts Newman and Young out of a job IMO. Too slow, need team defence to defend.

Pressure used to be applied by having numbers around the ball and keeping the opposition wide along the boundary and in congestion. You can't do that now, teams switch play high, they go up through the middle and simply avoid the defensive clusters. Pressure is now applied by leg speed. You also need to be able to kick really well when playing high risk footy up the middle. Leg speed to get ahead of the play and behind the play is important, the ball is moving up and down quicker so players have to be quicker to setup team defence and setup their attack going forward. This takes guys like Ed Curnow, Hewett, Kennedy out of the game. Hewett and Ed are probably the slowest and both not a great kicks. Means the game has gone past them as well.

The more we try and play modern footy, the more guys like Young, Hewett, Curnow, Newman are going to burn us so we just need to move on. We have the players but the coach seems a bit unwilling to select them.

I think if we embrace things properly and select the team correctly we will go into next season really really strongly. We do have the pace to do it but the coaching and team selection is not coming together with the game play quite yet although the last few rounds have brought these two things a lot closer than ever before.

As for the game style. Teams started to change over around the middle of last season, a lot of teams worked on the change over in the off season. Collingwood were the first to change over, it nearly won them a flag and they probably win it this season purely because they are on the front foot and ahead of the competition. Teams getting a grip on the changes to the game coincide with us going from winning games to losing a lot around the middle of last year.

Coaching has killed us since then, we have been left in the wake of a lot of sides and made a lot of mistakes and are only playing catchup now. Hopefully that results in us winning again.
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I keep saying the Pies are playing the AFL equivalent of Bazzball.. entertaining, score a minute, win early. Eventually will get found out by a more well rounded team well coached in a final. Brisbane and Port have the ability to change gears and will not be pushed around or over awed by them come finals. I predict another Prelim close loss for the Pies and fatter time is catching up on them too.
 
I don't get the 'Dow should have come in for Cotts instead of Ed' thinking, unless it's based around a significant restructuring of the entire midfield group (ie Walsh & Cerra lose about half their midfield time to accommodate Paddy playing in the middle) which makes sense conceptually but I disagree with the logic.

I don't have Ed anywhere near my best 22, but he played 88% TOG, was ranked 1st for distance covered, 1st for dist at high speed, equal 1st for repeat sprints, and 2nd for average speed in defence. Dow would have blown up in the first 5-10mins trying to play that role.

I would have preferred him to be sub ahead of Hewett, despite it being another single quarter of footy for the week, or could have seen the though behind promoting him ahead of Kennedy (albeit hard to justify after his output in the previous game), but forcing him into the midfield at expense of Cerra, Walsh or Cripps. And he can't play anywhere else.
 
jj1978 said:
Hawks just keep rebuilding beautifully and they've been spoilt over the last 40-50 years. They need a good 20+ years of solid bottom 4 finishes to complete the circle. I think they're in for a good 5 years of worth of pain and would be interesting if they can time things again with their list with the introduction of Tassie as they did to aplomb with GC and GWS.

I was very concerned about Mitchells continuous hints recently about Hawks returning to unsociable football and did fear to see some nasty behind the scenes tactics, even thought a few of their after our post mark shoves and niggles during the game were in merit of a 50m.
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Day looks alright but Newcombe, Worpel, etc make up pretty much the worst midfield in the comp and I can't see them getting much better.

Frost is their only recognisable key back and he's 30. Lewis is their only key forward. They have a list is full of holes.

Wingard still getting a game ffs.

They need another 6-10 high draft picks before they have a list worth getting excited about.
 
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