Training 2024 Preseason Training Thread

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BrunoV said:
I was hoping we'd have a look at this.

It's adds a different dynamic forward. More combative and physical in the air than anyone who is currently playing. Doesn't help for stand and deliver but that is what Wright and the second ruck are for.

He's played 64 games in the last 3 seasons where he had played 46 games in the 6 seasons prior due to constant physical breakdown.

He's not the same player he was the last time he was forward. I'm not sure we can do without Laverde to play on the quicker leading forwards in defence but it's a bit '6 or 1, half a dozen of the other'.
Click to expand...

I'd rather Menzie standing under a long high ball than Wright haha. For his strengths, Wright is rather weak in that area.

Anywho, yeah I don't mind them trying Laverde forward again, but I'm also in the camp of 'meh'. I'm not sure there is really space for Laverde at either end.
If the preference is to start McKay, Reid, Ridley...that's very big already. It's all good for us to say he'll have to play smaller than he has been, that's good - but, like, what examples of players are we expecting him to play on?

At the other end, the medium spots are Stringer's and Langford's. I don't think there's any real argument there. Even Perkins when he's down there is more that medium size.

In the same breath, Laverde's definitely going to play a majority of the games haha.
 
cAsEy_18 said:
I'd rather Menzie standing under a long high ball than Wright haha. For his strengths, Wright is rather weak in that area.

Anywho, yeah I don't mind them trying Laverde forward again, but I'm also in the camp of 'meh'. I'm not sure there is really space for Laverde at either end.
If the preference is to start McKay, Reid, Ridley...that's very big already. It's all good for us to say he'll have to play smaller than he has been, that's good - but, like, what examples of players are we expecting him to play on?

At the other end, the medium spots are Stringer's and Langford's. I don't think there's any real argument there. Even Perkins when he's down there is more that medium size.

In the same breath, Laverde's definitely going to play a majority of the games haha.
Click to expand...

Laverde is pretty much a proper tall-medium sized player who's very powerful and mobile for his size so has a wide range of players he could match-up on.

From the list below;

2023 AFL League Total Goals Leaders

2023 AFL League Total Goals Leaders.
www.footywire.com

Greene, Mihocek, Henry, Fritsch, Heeney would all be the kind of guys he'd play on. Along with your DeGoey and Petracca types if they're resting forward.

He's also able to play taller if he needs to cover it against a forward line like the Lions who play Daniher, Hipwood and often also a resting ruckman.

For reference he's 193; Curnow, Walker and Fogarty are 194.

McKay + Reid would take the two tallest forwards, Laverde the most dangerous tall / medium player in a more defensive role, trying to get Ridley loose against a less dangerous player to play the intercept role he can be so damaging in. Redman and McGrath then cover the smaller players. Cox as depth / bench rotation. Kelly offers cover for a pretty wide range of players as well so ideally we're not forced to end up with Ridley playing a defensive role too often.
 
owen87 said:
Laverde is pretty much a proper tall-medium sized player who's very powerful and mobile for his size so has a wide range of players he could match-up on.

From the list below;

2023 AFL League Total Goals Leaders

2023 AFL League Total Goals Leaders.
www.footywire.com

Greene, Mihocek, Henry, Fritsch, Heeney would all be the kind of guys he'd play on. Along with your DeGoey and Petracca types if they're resting forward.

He's also able to play taller if he needs to cover it against a forward line like the Lions who play Daniher, Hipwood and often also a resting ruckman.

For reference he's 193; Curnow, Walker and Fogarty are 194.

McKay + Reid would take the two tallest forwards, Laverde the most dangerous tall / medium player in a more defensive role, trying to get Ridley loose against a less dangerous player to play the intercept role he can be so damaging in. Redman and McGrath then cover the smaller players. Cox as depth / bench rotation. Kelly offers cover for a pretty wide range of players as well so ideally we're not forced to end up with Ridley playing a defensive role too often.
Click to expand...

I agree that these would/should be the types of guys he plays on - but it's all about the fit and mix. I know you go on to say the types each guy should try and play on, but we're talking like each team has a Curnow + McKay and then a 3rd medium that is perfect for Laverde.

These plans all sound like we're abandoning the idea of Ridley playing on anyone - which I'm not completely opposed to, sure, if that's going to free him up. So let's say we go with that for now.

But if Laverde plays on Mihocek for example...who the * are Reid and McKay meant to play on haha? Assuming Cox is playing, okay one of them can go to Cox. The other?
The fact that Laverde has tried and failed to play on taller guys doesn't really matter for this - it's part of the reason we went and recruited McKay, so he doesn't have to.

What we need to work out is whether it's worth playing Laverde, when
  • We don't need him to play on talls
  • He's probably suited to mediums, but will there always be a matchup for him, when Ridley can take them, and McGrath and Redman are better suited than him to smalls
  • And he doesn't provide any sort of attack and rebounding.
 

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cAsEy_18 said:
I agree that these would/should be the types of guys he plays on - but it's all about the fit and mix. I know you go on to say the types each guy should try and play on, but we're talking like each team has a Curnow + McKay and then a 3rd medium that is perfect for Laverde.

These plans all sound like we're abandoning the idea of Ridley playing on anyone - which I'm not completely opposed to, sure, if that's going to free him up. So let's say we go with that for now.

But if Laverde plays on Mihocek for example...who the * are Reid and McKay meant to play on haha? Assuming Cox is playing, okay one of them can go to Cox. The other?
The fact that Laverde has tried and failed to play on taller guys doesn't really matter for this - it's part of the reason we went and recruited McKay, so he doesn't have to.

What we need to work out is whether it's worth playing Laverde, when
  • We don't need him to play on talls
  • He's probably suited to mediums, but will there always be a matchup for him, when Ridley can take them, and McGrath and Redman are better suited than him to smalls
  • And he doesn't provide any sort of attack and rebounding.
Click to expand...

You need two medium sized defenders that can play on a variety of sizes, the whole point is trying to get Ridley freed up, not defending. If Ridley is forced to play on a dangerous forward instead of playing a loose role, that's a win for the opposition. With McKay in (and BZT out) it means Laverde gets to play on players that are actually around his size, not ones that are up to 10cm taller.

I would disagree that he tried and failed to play on talls; he did OK playing drastically out of his weight class often against the #1 KPF in a defence that was hung out to dry by the midfield. I'd also disagree that he provides no attack and rebounding.

In the case of Collingwood at a guess their forwardline is a mix of;

Resting Ruckman, Hoskin-Elliot, Mihocek, McCreery, Elliot, Schultz, Hill.

Reid is the odd one out against that forward-line given they're relatively short. Mihocek or McCreery would be guys Laverde could play on. I'd want Ridley minding WHE since he's the least dangerous of that lot IMO.
 
owen87 said:
You need two medium sized defenders that can play on a variety of sizes, the whole point is trying to get Ridley freed up, not defending. If Ridley is forced to play on a dangerous forward instead of playing a loose role, that's a win for the opposition. With McKay in (and BZT out) it means Laverde gets to play on players that are actually around his size, not ones that are up to 10cm taller.

I would disagree that he tried and failed to play on talls; he did OK playing drastically out of his weight class often against the #1 KPF in a defence that was hung out to dry by the midfield. I'd also disagree that he provides no attack and rebounding.

In the case of Collingwood at a guess their forwardline is a mix of;

Resting Ruckman, Hoskin-Elliot, Mihocek, McCreery, Elliot, Schultz, Hill.

Reid is the odd one out against that forward-line given they're relatively short. Mihocek or McCreery would be guys Laverde could play on. I'd want Ridley minding WHE since he's the least dangerous of that lot IMO.
Click to expand...

You're going to have to help me out here then - outside of kicking it 50m down the line, reasonably straight. I'm not sure what exactly he provides. He's not a 'shocking' kick by any means, but he's not any sort of creator/distributor.

I'd tend to think Reid is the odd one out too in a lot of situations and matchups, agreed. But that's kind of my point, that if we are clearly looking to play McKay and Reid, and a lot of these teams don't have 2x monster forwards - so McKay and Reid might end up on the 1x key forward + the biggest medium sized forward the opposition has (eg: A Heeney, a Mihocek, a...Langford/Stringer for us) then who does that leave Laverde playing on? An even smaller guy? And can he even do that? Maybe, not saying he can't, but I'm also not saying he can as we've barely seen it (as he's been required to play on the bigger guys). And if it's a situation where he can't go with these smaller guys + he doesn't really provide any rebound... then why would we play him?
 
cAsEy_18 said:
I'd rather Menzie standing under a long high ball than Wright haha. For his strengths, Wright is rather weak in that area.

Anywho, yeah I don't mind them trying Laverde forward again, but I'm also in the camp of 'meh'. I'm not sure there is really space for Laverde at either end.
If the preference is to start McKay, Reid, Ridley...that's very big already. It's all good for us to say he'll have to play smaller than he has been, that's good - but, like, what examples of players are we expecting him to play on?

At the other end, the medium spots are Stringer's and Langford's. I don't think there's any real argument there. Even Perkins when he's down there is more that medium size.

In the same breath, Laverde's definitely going to play a majority of the games haha.
Click to expand...


Wright is so tall he doesn't have to be competitive.
 
cAsEy_18 said:
You're going to have to help me out here then - outside of kicking it 50m down the line, reasonably straight. I'm not sure what exactly he provides. He's not a 'shocking' kick by any means, but he's not any sort of creator/distributor.

I'd tend to think Reid is the odd one out too in a lot of situations and matchups, agreed. But that's kind of my point, that if we are clearly looking to play McKay and Reid, and a lot of these teams don't have 2x monster forwards - so McKay and Reid might end up on the 1x key forward + the biggest medium sized forward the opposition has (eg: A Heeney, a Mihocek, a...Langford/Stringer for us) then who does that leave Laverde playing on? An even smaller guy? And can he even do that? Maybe, not saying he can't, but I'm also not saying he can as we've barely seen it (as he's been required to play on the bigger guys). And if it's a situation where he can't go with these smaller guys + he doesn't really provide any rebound... then why would we play him?
Click to expand...

There exists a realm between 'is an elite kick' and 'provides no attack and rebounding'. Laverde is in that realm. He's happy to run and carry a bit, he's a good intercept mark, he's an ok enough kick. For a player who's first and primary role is <defend> he offers enough the other way that he's not a liability. He's not Ridley or Martin by foot, but he's also not likely to turn it over because he takes the kicks he can make, not the ones he can't.

Maybe they won't play Reid at any costs then, he's a young developing tall coming off continual injury interrupted years. Chances are he'll be regularly rested and managed conservatively with any niggles. He's also a more awkward matchup, he can't really play on a Mihocek or DeGoey or Toby Greene whereas Laverde can.

With Baldwin being injured and Wiedeman being a complete unknown as a KPD, Laverde is also the next player in if we need a tall defender due to a McKay injury or Reid being injured / rested / managed.
 
owen87 said:
There exists a realm between 'is an elite kick' and 'provides no attack and rebounding'. Laverde is in that realm. He's happy to run and carry a bit, he's a good intercept mark, he's an ok enough kick. For a player who's first and primary role is <defend> he offers enough the other way that he's not a liability. He's not Ridley or Martin by foot, but he's also not likely to turn it over because he takes the kicks he can make, not the ones he can't.

Maybe they won't play Reid at any costs then, he's a young developing tall coming off continual injury interrupted years. Chances are he'll be regularly rested and managed conservatively with any niggles. He's also a more awkward matchup, he can't really play on a Mihocek or DeGoey or Toby Greene whereas Laverde can.

With Baldwin being injured and Wiedeman being a complete unknown as a KPD, Laverde is also the next player in if we need a tall defender due to a McKay injury or Reid being injured / rested / managed.
Click to expand...

This is something we can agree on. He kicks it down the line. Just like Jake Kelly kicks it down the line. If you want to talk nuances, there are levels between 'provides attacking and rebounding' and "bad kick". He's not a bad kick. He's just not a good kick. He doesn't turn it over, because he takes the safe option down the line (as he should). That's not rebound, that's not creating.

And again, agreed on the middle paragraph. Said this a few times now, but this whole thing is based on the premise that if they want to play both McKay and Reid, then it makes Laverde possibly (possibly) unnecessary. I agree that Reid could be the one lacking a matchup. Agreed that Reid will also be rested.

And to use your approach - there's a difference between "I'm not sure he gets a game/should be getting a game" and "Delist him". He's good depth, he has a role to play and can play in the case of injury/rest etc... This is all just talking about the 'mix' of our backline, something we've ignored for a long time (More so forward line).
 
cAsEy_18 said:
This is something we can agree on. He kicks it down the line. Just like Jake Kelly kicks it down the line. If you want to talk nuances, there are levels between 'provides attacking and rebounding' and "bad kick". He's not a bad kick. He's just not a good kick. He doesn't turn it over, because he takes the safe option down the line (as he should). That's not rebound, that's not creating.

And again, agreed on the middle paragraph. Said this a few times now, but this whole thing is based on the premise that if they want to play both McKay and Reid, then it makes Laverde possibly (possibly) unnecessary. I agree that Reid could be the one lacking a matchup. Agreed that Reid will also be rested.

And to use your approach - there's a difference between "I'm not sure he gets a game/should be getting a game" and "Delist him". He's good depth, he has a role to play and can play in the case of injury/rest etc... This is all just talking about the 'mix' of our backline, something we've ignored for a long time (More so forward line).
Click to expand...

Yep Laverde only ever kicks long down the line and a medium-tall defender that can actually defend a variety of types is a bad part of our backline mix.
 
owen87 said:
Yep Laverde only ever kicks long down the line and a medium-tall defender that can actually defend a variety of types is a bad part of our backline mix.
Click to expand...

Alright, let's leave it here before this becomes "Your opinion sucks and I slightly misquote you" and then the other person replies with the same.

Genuinely didn't mind the discussion. Think it's a decent debate as to whether Laverde is part of our best 22/best mix in 2024 and moving forward. Can see both arguments.
 
What is the deal with Tex Wanganeen? Not playing in either Geelong game today - still injured or recovering from injury ?
 

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Bombers trio to play VFL ahead of season opener​

Three key Essendon players will play a VFL practice match on Friday ahead of the club's round one game against Hawthorn
www.afl.com.au
www.afl.com.au

Bombers trio to play VFL ahead of season opener​

Three key Essendon players will play a VFL practice match on Friday ahead of the club's round one game against Hawthorn
By Callum Twomey
1 hr ago
TR220124MW01071.jpg



Essendon ruckman Sam Draper at Bombers training on January 22, 2024. Picture: AFL Photos
ESSENDON trio Sam Draper, Ben Hobbs and Nate Caddy will play in a VFL practice match on Friday as they push for more match time ahead of round one of the premiership season.
Draper played last week against Geelong on restricted minutes in a big step in his return from his groin surgery in the off-season and will face the Northern Bullants at the NEC Hangar on Friday afternoon.
Another successful outing will give the Bombers the option of having him available for their season opener against Hawthorn.
fTC2rhQA.jpg



Ben Hobbs evades Luke Davies-Uniacke during the R22 match between Essendon and North Melbourne at Marvel Stadium on August 12, 2023. Picture: AFL Photos
Hobbs didn't feature in either of Essendon's practice matches against St Kilda or Geelong after injuring his shoulder at training in February.
It kept him out of full training for several weeks, but the talented midfielder will still push for a berth against the Hawks in round one by playing in the VFL practice game.
It will be the final chance for the players to gather match conditioning ahead of the game against the Hawks on Saturday, March 16.
Caddy will also get his first run in Bombers colours on Friday after impressing in his first pre-season at the club.
EXCLUSIVE
'We won't be holding him back': Scott bullish about young gun
The powerful tall forward was ruled out of the pre-season games after falling in a marking contest at training and coming back sore from the incident.
The Bombers have been careful with the prized No.10 draft pick, who has taken the eye of teammates and coaches in his first summer at AFL level.
Essendon will be without Jordan Ridley (quad) for the opening weeks of its season but with Draper, Hobbs and Caddy back to fitness, Brad Scott will head into the campaign with a relatively healthy squad.
Midfielder Dylan Shiel dislocated a finger at training this week and required stitches, but dodged a bullet for any longer absence and is still expected to return to the field next week after his long recovery from his foot injury.
Official AFL Tipping
 
Hobbsy was BOG in the VFL praccy. Played 4 quarters. Kicked 1 set up a couple. Class above. Would replace Menzie or the Guelf.

Drapes played 3 quarters. 2 in the ruck. One at FF. Couple of goals. Not 100% fit so Goldy plays next week

Caddy only played a half rotating between wing and forward line. Took a couple of fantastic pack marks and should be worth considering as an X factor up forward
 

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If no Parish you’d expect Hobbs to come in as an On Baller.

Also probably Jones to VFL to make way for Draper.

Cox McKay Mcgrath
Redman Reid Martin (Laverde)
Durham Hobbs Tsatas (Dursma)
Goldy Merrett Setterfield
Caldwell Draper Gresham (Stringer)
Menzie Langford Perkins (Guelfi)

VFL team slightly less dangerous
 
jdstorm said:
If no Parish you’d expect Hobbs to come in as an On Baller.

Also probably Jones to VFL to make way for Draper.

Cox McKay Mcgrath
Redman Reid Martin (Laverde)
Durham Hobbs Tsatas (Dursma)
Goldy Merrett Setterfield
Caldwell Draper Gresham (Stringer)
Menzie Langford Perkins (Guelfi)

VFL team slightly less dangerous
Click to expand...
Wheres 2MP?
 
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