Best individual finals performance in AFL/VFL history

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geelong_crazy26 said:
Err who cares?
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Dumb comment. Goals are scarcer and more precious these days. Dusty kicking 4 as a half forward in a low scoring game had more impact on the result of the 2020 GF than Ablett kicking 9 did on the 89 result. Of course those performances are on the same level as far as best GF performances
 
RichLeMonde said:
Dumb comment. Goals are scarcer and more precious these days. Dusty kicking 4 as a half forward in a low scoring game had more impact on the result of the 2020 GF than Ablett kicking 9 did on the 89 result. Of course those performances are on the same level as far as best GF performances
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Jake Kolodjashnij vs Scott Maginness (4 goals) & Chris Langford (5 goals) = Ablett comfortably.

Keep in mind, Richmond scored the first 3 goals after halftime and bridge the margin to only a couple of points the difference before Martin kicks his second goal.
In the final quarter, back-to-back goals by Prestia and Lynch extends the margin to 3 goals. Martin kicks his third before Riewoldt seals the game making it a 4 goal lead with less than four minutes remaining.
 

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RichLeMonde said:
Dumb comment. Goals are scarcer and more precious these days. Dusty kicking 4 as a half forward in a low scoring game had more impact on the result of the 2020 GF than Ablett kicking 9 did on the 89 result. Of course those performances are on the same level as far as best GF performances
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LOL. He literally kicked one of those goals during the last couple of minutes of the game in junk time. So 3 of the goals you can classify as an impact if you want to go down that route. Ablett almost single handedly won the game for geelong, where as Richmond were running all over geelong and would have won anyway. Prestias 2 goals were just as crucial as martins 2 before. Also ablett kicked 42% of geelongs goals, Martin kicked 33%. You can’t even logic your own argument properly which is embarrassing.

There are so many players who have kicked 4 goals in grand finals it’s just meh… nowhere near what others have achieved. Insulting and showing a simpleton footy brain that doesn’t go back before the year 2017 in its recall.
 
If people doubt how GREAT G.Lyon was the 10.4 in 1994 is a fantastic example

 
Other notable mentions:

Gary Buckenara had 32 and 5 goals in the 87 Qualifying Final flogging they gave the Swans - obviously kicked the goal after the siren in the Prelim a couple of weeks later.

Brett Allison had 22 and 7 goals straight in the 96 Qualifying Final with McKernan mostly in ruck and Carey playing up the ground

David King's best ever game was 22 touches & 7 goals in the 2000 Qualifying Final they lost by 125 points - makes me chuckle


2 x More recent:

Lachie Neale's 37 and 2 goals in the 2020 Qualifying Final that they lost by 8 goals was just amazing as HE WAS EVERYWHERE

Max Gawn's 19 touches, 5 goals and 33 hit outs in the 2021 Prelim in Perth was probably the most complete performance by a ruckman I've seen this century (mind you I saw some superlative Simon Madden performances in the 80s)
 
Robert Harvey vs the Crows 2005 Qualifying final, 30 odd touches and 3 goals and Jimmy Bartels tagging job on Lenny Hayes in 2009.
 
geelong_crazy26 said:
LOL. He literally kicked one of those goals during the last couple of minutes of the game in junk time. So 3 of the goals you can classify as an impact if you want to go down that route. Ablett almost single handedly won the game for geelong, where as Richmond were running all over geelong and would have won anyway. Prestias 2 goals were just as crucial as martins 2 before. Also ablett kicked 42% of geelongs goals, Martin kicked 33%. You can’t even logic your own argument properly which is embarrassing.

There are so many players who have kicked 4 goals in grand finals it’s just meh… nowhere near what others have achieved. Insulting and showing a simpleton footy brain that doesn’t go back before the year 2017 in its recall.
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Learn to read. I said the % of the goals kicked that day. Ablett kicked 9/42 = 21%. Dusty kicked 4 out of 19 = 21%.

One was playing at FF, the other as a half forward/mid.

You say there are loads of players who have kicked 4 in GFs and that it’s meh. You don’t seem to realise that the average scores in AFL have steadily decreased over the years, so that a goal now is worth a lot more than it was in the 80s or 90s.

How many players have kicked 4 or > 20% total goals as a half forward/mid, in a highly contested, close game, rather than a blowout?

Let’s have a look:

2022 - blowout, over at half time
2021 - blowout, over at half tome
2020 - Dusty kicks 4 out of 19 (21%), all extremely difficult goals that hardly any other players in the comp could have kicked, including 1 to keep Richmond in the game when they were otherwise in massive trouble just before half time, and another to shift the momentum on the 3rd
2019 - blowout
2018 - close - no player kicks > 3
2017 - solid win - only one player kicks 3
2016 - close - no player kicks > 3
2015 - blowout, over at half time
2014 - blowout
2013 - solid win - hawthorn up 4 goals at half time, one deep forward kicks 4
2012 - close - one player (FF) kicks 3
2011 - close until late - one deep forward kicks 4 in shoot out (out of 30 goals total) = 13% goals
2010a - close and low scoring (19 goals total, like 2020). No player kicks > 2
2010b - blowout, over at half time
2009 - close, low scoring (19 goals like 2020.) one player (key forward) kicks 3
2008 - close, one player (deep forward) kicks 3
2007 - blowout
2006 - close, no player kicks > 3
2005 - close, no player kicks > 2
2004 - solid win, one player kicks 4 in shootout (27 goals total) = 15% goals
2003 - blowout
2002 - close, 2 key position forwards kick 4 out of 19 (21% each)
2001 - solid win - a key forward kicks 4, and a FF kicks 5 out of 27 (18.5%)
2000 - blowout
1999 - over at half time, 31 goals kicked, a pocket and a flanker kick 4 each (13% goals each)
1998 - Jarman kicks 5 from FF in the last quarter to win the game out of 23 total goals) = 21.7% total goals
1997 - shootout - 32 goals kicked. Jarman kicks 6, Ellen 5, both < 20% total goals kicked
1996 - solid win in shootout, Lockett kicks 6 out of 32 (18%)
1995 - blowout
1994 - blowout
1993 - blowout - 33 goals kicked, Kernahan kicks 7 in losing side (21%)
1992 - solid win - Sumich 6, Matera kicks 5 off the wing, out of 28 = (18%)
1991 - solid win - 33 goals kicked, 5 Sumich, 4 Heady, 6 Dunstall, 4 Brereton - all deep/key forwards. dunstall’s 6 is still only 18% of goals
1990 - solid win, no player kicks > 2
1989 - close, Ablett kicks 9 out of 42 = 21% goals in losing side

So you’re completely wrong.

It’s incredibly rare to kick > 20% of the goals kicked, especially in a game where the player’s team is down at halftime.

And it’s basically unprecedented for it to be done by a half forward rotating though the middle. Jarman’s 5 in the 4th quarter was brilliant, but even then he was a pure full forward in that quarter. Matera kicked his 5 as a true wing, but that actually made up less than 20% of goals kicked. Ablett and Kernahan were impressive in 89 and 93 kicking bags, but didn’t a tully influence the result.

So to say Dusty’s 2020 isn’t in the top bracket of GF performances is delusional
 
RichLeMonde said:
Learn to read. I said the % of the goals kicked that day. Ablett kicked 9/42 = 21%. Dusty kicked 4 out of 19 = 21%.

One was playing at FF, the other as a half forward/mid.

You say there are loads of players who have kicked 4 in GFs and that it’s meh. You don’t seem to realise that the average scores in AFL have steadily decreased over the years, so that a goal now is worth a lot more than it was in the 80s or 90s.

How many players have kicked 4 or > 20% total goals as a half forward/mid, in a highly contested, close game, rather than a blowout?

Let’s have a look:

2022 - blowout, over at half time
2021 - blowout, over at half tome
2020 - Dusty kicks 4 out of 19 (21%), all extremely difficult goals that hardly any other players in the comp could have kicked, including 1 to keep Richmond in the game when they were otherwise in massive trouble just before half time, and another to shift the momentum on the 3rd
2019 - blowout
2018 - close - no player kicks > 3
2017 - solid win - only one player kicks 3
2016 - close - no player kicks > 3
2015 - blowout, over at half time
2014 - blowout
2013 - solid win - hawthorn up 4 goals at half time, one deep forward kicks 4
2012 - close - one player (FF) kicks 3
2011 - close until late - one deep forward kicks 4 in shoot out (out of 30 goals total) = 13% goals
2010a - close and low scoring (19 goals total, like 2020). No player kicks > 2
2010b - blowout, over at half time
2009 - close, low scoring (19 goals like 2020.) one player (key forward) kicks 3
2008 - close, one player (deep forward) kicks 3
2007 - blowout
2006 - close, no player kicks > 3
2005 - close, no player kicks > 2
2004 - solid win, one player kicks 4 in shootout (27 goals total) = 15% goals
2003 - blowout
2002 - close, 2 key position forwards kick 4 out of 19 (21% each)
2001 - solid win - a key forward kicks 4, and a FF kicks 5 out of 27 (18.5%)
2000 - blowout
1999 - over at half time, 31 goals kicked, a pocket and a flanker kick 4 each (13% goals each)
1998 - Jarman kicks 5 from FF in the last quarter to win the game out of 23 total goals) = 21.7% total goals
1997 - shootout - 32 goals kicked. Jarman kicks 6, Ellen 5, both < 20% total goals kicked
1996 - solid win in shootout, Lockett kicks 6 out of 32 (18%)
1995 - blowout
1994 - blowout
1993 - blowout - 33 goals kicked, Kernahan kicks 7 in losing side (21%)
1992 - solid win - Sumich 6, Matera kicks 5 off the wing, out of 28 = (18%)
1991 - solid win - 33 goals kicked, 5 Sumich, 4 Heady, 6 Dunstall, 4 Brereton - all deep/key forwards. dunstall’s 6 is still only 18% of goals
1990 - solid win, no player kicks > 2
1989 - close, Ablett kicks 9 out of 42 = 21% goals in losing side

So you’re completely wrong.

It’s incredibly rare to kick > 20% of the goals kicked, especially in a game where the player’s team is down at halftime.

And it’s basically unprecedented for it to be done by a half forward rotating though the middle. Jarman’s 5 in the 4th quarter was brilliant, but even then he was a pure full forward in that quarter. Matera kicked his 5 as a true wing, but that actually made up less than 20% of goals kicked. Ablett and Kernahan were impressive in 89 and 93 kicking bags, but didn’t a tully influence the result.

So to say Dusty’s 2020 isn’t in the top bracket of GF performances is delusional
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But in your heart of hearts you know Ablett's '89 finals series and grand final performance still blow any of Dusty's out of the water.
 
Brett Peake 2010
 
RichLeMonde said:
Dumb comment. Goals are scarcer and more precious these days. Dusty kicking 4 as a half forward in a low scoring game had more impact on the result of the 2020 GF than Ablett kicking 9 did on the 89 result. Of course those performances are on the same level as far as best GF performances
Click to expand...

So, despite Coventry kicking bags of 9 and 7 you are suggesting his 2 goals in the 1927 Grand Final is the greatest performance ever. He kicked 66% of the goals on the day and kicked one more goals than Richmond. Now that is impact.
 
Mr Meow said:
But in your heart of hearts you know Ablett's '89 finals series and grand final performance still blow any of Dusty's out of the water.
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Finals series - yes sure.

GF performance? Not sure about that. Ablett’s game in 89 was remarkable for kicking a lot of goals, but also because a few of them were goals that basically hardly any other players in the comp could have kicked, like grabbing the ball out of the ruck and snapping truly. Also remarkable because he was helping push Geelong against the tide. But, there were a LOT of goals kicked that day; goals came pretty freely back then, amd of course he couldn’t get Geelong over the line.

Dusty’s 2020 GF was remarkable for kicking 4 - same % of goals as Ablett in a low scoring game - and for all of them having a very high degree of difficulty. The fend off and snap; the running banana; the calculated top spinner from 60 that slid through; shrugging a tackle and snapping from the boundary. Most players in the AFL would struggle to have pulled off any 1 of those 4 goals. It was also remarkable that Richmond were dead and buried 5 minutes before half time - Geelong were double Richmond’s score, and Dusty’s freak effort kept them in the game. Richmond of course went on to win, unlike Geelong in 89. So in my heart of hearts I think those 2 GF performances are comparable.
 

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South of the Yarra said:
So, despite Coventry kicking bags of 9 and 7 you are suggesting his 2 goals in the 1927 Grand Final is the greatest performance ever. He kicked 66% of the goals on the day and kicked one more goals than Richmond. Now that is impact.
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Yeah, it's a truly ridiculous argument started by Meteoric Rise. All it shows is how weak those opposition performances were and how on top of them Richmond's excellent defence was. Martin was the A1 slingshot final target. Tired legs got swarmed and Martin finished them off.

If you analyse the whole thing it's Hardwick who comes out looking most impressive and his peers impotent. The play worked like a charm, over and over.
 
Mr Meow said:
Yeah, it's a truly ridiculous argument started by Meteoric Rise. All it shows is how weak those opposition performances were and how on top of them Richmond's excellent defence was. Martin was the A1 slingshot final target. Tired legs got swarmed and Martin finished them off.

If you analyse the whole thing it's Hardwick who comes out looking most impressive and his peers impotent. The play worked like a charm, over and over.
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It’s only ridiculous if you focus on % of goals without considering the closeness of the game. J Riewoldt kicked 5 out of 20 (25%) in 2019, but no one thinks it’s particularly impressive, because it was a blowout where he got on the end of a few. There’s no reason not to focus on % of goals kicked in tight games. There’s a reason why almost no players have ever kicked > 20% goals kicked in games that were still tight at half or 3/4 time.

Your point about Dusty and Richmond slingshotting doesn’t even make sense, if you’re talking about 2020. 3 of his 4 goals were in heavy traffic, either breaking or balking tackles, amd the other he was outnumbered but read the ball better and kicked a 60m goal. He wasn’t just getting on the end of it for any of them.
 
RichLeMonde said:
It’s only ridiculous if you focus on % of goals without considering the closeness of the game. J Riewoldt kicked 5 out of 20 (25%) in 2019, but no one thinks it’s particularly impressive, because it was a blowout where he got on the end of a few. There’s no reason not to focus on % of goals kicked in tight games. There’s a reason why almost no players have ever kicked > 20% goals kicked in games that were still tight at half or 3/4 time.

Your point about Dusty and Richmond slingshotting doesn’t even make sense, if you’re talking about 2020. 3 of his 4 goals were in heavy traffic, either breaking or balking tackles, amd the other he was outnumbered but read the ball better and kicked a 60m goal. He wasn’t just getting on the end of it for any of them.
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There's a reason not to and there's a reason I've only seen it used twice, both by Richmond supporters. It's a fun quirk but really doesn't mean much.

Richmond's swarm and constant pressure on ball carrier plus masterful blocking off of exits wore every team down in finals those years. By the second half teams were completely gassed and out of ideas. Then once Richmond had the 3 goal lead it was game over, nobody was chasing them down.

A lot of tired opposition midfield/defender efforts in the Dusty highlights packages - particularly grand finals. Or you just had guys like Tuohy, Kolo or Shaw not really doing the basics well at all.

They were all good performances but I have no problem admitting a Hodge '08 or Davis '05 impressed me more.
 
Mr Meow said:
There's a reason not to and there's a reason I've only seen it used twice, both by Richmond supporters. It's a fun quirk but really doesn't mean much.

Richmond's swarm and constant pressure on ball carrier plus masterful blocking off of exits wore every team down in finals those years. By the second half teams were completely gassed and out of ideas. Then once Richmond had the 3 goal lead it was game over, nobody was chasing them down.

A lot of tired opposition midfield/defender efforts in the Dusty highlights packages - particularly grand finals. Or you just had guys like Tuohy, Kolo or Shaw not really doing the basics well at all.

They were all good performances but I have no problem admitting a Hodge '08 or Davis '05 impressed me more.
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Lol ok. It was because Geelong were tired that Dusty kicked 3 freak goals in the second and third quarters, or, even better, it was because Geelong players just didn’t defend him properly, the implication being that anyone could have kicked those goals. That’s the reason why he kicked those goals with a fend-off then snap over his shoulder, a running contested banana, and a top spinning punt from 60 calculated to slide through an open goals square. He kicked those because of Geelong making basic mistakes and being tired, and any player could have done it. Doesn’t sound at all like you’re making up desperate rationalisations to minimise a great performance.
 
RichLeMonde said:
Lol ok. It was because Geelong were tired that Dusty kicked 3 freak goals in the second and third quarters, or, even better, it was because Geelong players just didn’t defend him properly, the implication being that anyone could have kicked those goals. That’s the reason why he kicked those goals with a fend-off then snap over his shoulder, a running contested banana, and a top spinning punt from 60 calculated to slide through an open goals square. He kicked those because of Geelong making basic mistakes and being tired, and any player could have done it. Doesn’t sound at all like you’re making up desperate rationalisations to minimise a great performance.
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You're being disingenuous now so it's time to end the discussion.
 
Mr Meow said:
You're being disingenuous now so it's time to end the discussion.
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Happy to end the discussion if that’s your preference, but will point out I’m not being disingenuous, which means insincere.

I was being sarcastic, but entirely sincere. Please feel free to correct me if I’ve misrepresented your point or its implications.
 
The reason Richmond didn't win 4 flags in a row.... 5 year anniversary addition.

1538077639-1037596726_64928440.JPG
 
RichLeMonde said:
Happy to end the discussion if that’s your preference, but will point out I’m not being disingenuous, which means insincere.

I was being sarcastic, but entirely sincere. Please feel free to correct me if I’ve misrepresented your point or its implications.
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Insincere because you presented my view that "anyone could do" what Martin did. We call that a strawman and it's very much not an argument based in sincerity. Likewise restating someone's argument in a silly, overstated manner so as to ridicule it.

My actual position: it wasn't the greatest VFL/AFL finals performance in history, from the ones I've seen (opposition only). To take the "salty Cat supporter about a final they lost" element out of it, there are others that I objectively rate higher from that category too.

The rest of it was simply praising Hardwick and that Richmond side, which bizarrely is one thing that seems to annoy Tigers supporters (because the implication is that it was not Martin and Martin alone who beat opponents during that run).
 
RichLeMonde out of curiosity, do you think the only reason a St Kilda fan could rate Martin's 2020 grand final ahead of Jarman or McLeod's 1997 GF is because they are scarred by the latter? Likewise, Hodge 2008 by Saints fans could only be considered greater than Chapman 2009 because in the latter their side lost their match?

But what about if they had to choose between Chapman 2009 and Jarman 1997, both times the result being a lost grand final to St Kilda? Because the latter situation is what I have just described. If you need a Richmond performance against Geelong I rate at least as highly, then Lynch 2019 from the year before is what I'd go with. He was unstoppable and the POD that night. Could I only think that because of an anti-Richmond bias? Wait and why am I praising Hardwick so highly?
 
Mr Meow said:
Yeah, it's a truly ridiculous argument started by Meteoric Rise. All it shows is how weak those opposition performances were and how on top of them Richmond's excellent defence was. Martin was the A1 slingshot final target. Tired legs got swarmed and Martin finished them off.
Click to expand...

Mr Meow said:
Richmond's swarm and constant pressure on ball carrier plus masterful blocking off of exits wore every team down in finals those years. By the second half teams were completely gassed and out of ideas. Then once Richmond had the 3 goal lead it was game over, nobody was chasing them down.
Click to expand...
Mr Meow said:
A lot of tired opposition midfield/defender efforts in the Dusty highlights packages - particularly grand finals. Or you just had guys like Tuohy, Kolo or Shaw not really doing the basics well at all.
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It’s not a straw man. You objected to Richmond fans saying Dusty kicking 4 out of 19 goals in a tightly contested GF was impressive, on the basis that all it showed was that:
  • opposition was weak
  • Richmond defence was dominant
  • Hardwick out-strategised oppo coaches
  • Martin was the slingshot final target (ie finished off others’ good work)
  • Dusty’s opponents were exhausted
  • Dusty’s opponents were not doing the basics well

You literally listed all of those things as the reasons why Dusty kicking > 20% of the goals in the 2020 GF was not particularly impressive.

Surely, if those are all the real reasons why he kicked 4, and thus the reason why it’s not that impressive an effort, then an implication of your argument is that lots of other players could have done the same thing?
 
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