Not quite, we hit the Emirates for pre season during Rattans reign which he did request and was obviously granted. There is no point in firing Mick, if we flick him no decent potential coach will come due to the fickle nature of the job. Hopefully he can rebuild.
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Not quite, we hit the Emirates for pre season during Rattans reign which he did request and was obviously granted. There is no point in firing Mick, if we flick him no decent potential coach will come due to the fickle nature of the job. Hopefully he can rebuild.
Agree with this. Sacking Mick will only send the club further back. Carlton need to rebuild. The 5 year rebuild starts this coming off season. If everyone (coach, players, board) puts in the hard yards then it's not impossible for them to be playing finals footy in 3 years.
I was quoting a post who said MM needs the backing of the board and the right people around him.
Point being he had the backing of the two big Carlton power brokers - Sticks and Swann, and he bought across his usual group of trusted lieutenants.
Pretty easy to keep blaming everybody else for the state of the list, but plenty of guys who were going ok under Ratten have regressed under the new regime, and not many players have really come on.
I agree sacking Mick will be a bad look for potential future coaches, but for the good of the club Mick should stand down either now or at the end of his contract.
He will not have the stomach for the rebuild. How old is he now? What age will he be when Carlon contend again?
He will not have the stomach for the rebuild. How old is he now? What age will he be when Carlon contend again?
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Blue and Silver
Brownlow Medallist
Well step no.1 is to put the obviously walking wounded in for surgery.Guys like Henderson are obviously carrying something.
Step no. 2 is play as many of the kids as are ready now. See if they have it or not. Protracted time at senior level, not 1 match in 1 match out.
Step no. 3 is sort out which of the senior players can go around again. Guys like Simpson are probably good for another couple of years, but there are some who are already on their way out. Big call here is Waite, can play, but will he be effective? We won't get his value in a trade, and I think he might retire if he was given that option.
Step no. 4 is identify talent on the list who might be better off elsewhere. This is not Gibbs, who I feel is coming into his own as a player, but Garlett, Robinson, Watson, Lucas etc. Players who are not fitting into the side completely and might benefit from pursuing opportunities elsewhere.
THIS STEP IS NOT ABOUT TRADE VALUE. Gambling on the draft is still hit and miss, this is about appropriately managing the players futures for both Carlton's and their own benefit. Getting value is important but that is a far later stage, this is about assessing what we want the list to look like, and where these players fit, if at all.
Step no. 5 is identifying players on other lists who we believe we can offer better opportunity. The inverse process to the above, about finding players in situations where they are not 100% happy or being used to their best capability, and identifying whether they can be used better within our organisation.
Step no. 6 is establishing who on the list is not up to the standard required AND whether they are still required anyway. Sometimes you need journeymen to fill a hole, cut and slash and throwing kids to the wolves won't work (See Melbourne). If excess to needs seek to facilitate a transition out of the club, whether to another club, or to a different walk of life.
Step no. 7 having gathered a rough idea of where the club is, and what it now needs into the future. Establish which potential draftees fit these bills. All viable options to be pursued to a reasonable extent. Prioritize fitting the club culture over fitting the clubs needs. Right now we have so many holes to fill it doesn't matter where they play as much as if they can play, and whether they will help re-build the club.
Step no. 8 investigate assistant coaches. Some of our coaches have been around a while and are relatively proven (Laidley, Wiley) but others are more fresh and less reputable (Green, Barker). Look not only into other teams coaches, but into the recently retired, the second tier leagues, school teams etc. Tailor the coaching to the intended coaching direction of the club. NOT to the list. Players should not unduly dictate coaching decisions.
Step no. 9 Big name FA's. Are they viable? will they help? If yes, have a crack, but do not break the bank.
Step no. 10 Re-consolidate. Leadership unit is not invulnerable, but the players need to buy into the clubs direction, need to believe in themselves and the coaches. Keep them in the loop as much as is possible. The club is as much a family as it is a business. Players and other personnel leaving should be treated as extended family (you don't have to like your extended family, but try to respect them).
Step no. 11 Stop breaking my heart. Because I love this club
Step no. 2 is play as many of the kids as are ready now. See if they have it or not. Protracted time at senior level, not 1 match in 1 match out.
Step no. 3 is sort out which of the senior players can go around again. Guys like Simpson are probably good for another couple of years, but there are some who are already on their way out. Big call here is Waite, can play, but will he be effective? We won't get his value in a trade, and I think he might retire if he was given that option.
Step no. 4 is identify talent on the list who might be better off elsewhere. This is not Gibbs, who I feel is coming into his own as a player, but Garlett, Robinson, Watson, Lucas etc. Players who are not fitting into the side completely and might benefit from pursuing opportunities elsewhere.
THIS STEP IS NOT ABOUT TRADE VALUE. Gambling on the draft is still hit and miss, this is about appropriately managing the players futures for both Carlton's and their own benefit. Getting value is important but that is a far later stage, this is about assessing what we want the list to look like, and where these players fit, if at all.
Step no. 5 is identifying players on other lists who we believe we can offer better opportunity. The inverse process to the above, about finding players in situations where they are not 100% happy or being used to their best capability, and identifying whether they can be used better within our organisation.
Step no. 6 is establishing who on the list is not up to the standard required AND whether they are still required anyway. Sometimes you need journeymen to fill a hole, cut and slash and throwing kids to the wolves won't work (See Melbourne). If excess to needs seek to facilitate a transition out of the club, whether to another club, or to a different walk of life.
Step no. 7 having gathered a rough idea of where the club is, and what it now needs into the future. Establish which potential draftees fit these bills. All viable options to be pursued to a reasonable extent. Prioritize fitting the club culture over fitting the clubs needs. Right now we have so many holes to fill it doesn't matter where they play as much as if they can play, and whether they will help re-build the club.
Step no. 8 investigate assistant coaches. Some of our coaches have been around a while and are relatively proven (Laidley, Wiley) but others are more fresh and less reputable (Green, Barker). Look not only into other teams coaches, but into the recently retired, the second tier leagues, school teams etc. Tailor the coaching to the intended coaching direction of the club. NOT to the list. Players should not unduly dictate coaching decisions.
Step no. 9 Big name FA's. Are they viable? will they help? If yes, have a crack, but do not break the bank.
Step no. 10 Re-consolidate. Leadership unit is not invulnerable, but the players need to buy into the clubs direction, need to believe in themselves and the coaches. Keep them in the loop as much as is possible. The club is as much a family as it is a business. Players and other personnel leaving should be treated as extended family (you don't have to like your extended family, but try to respect them).
Step no. 11 Stop breaking my heart. Because I love this club
Perhaps mixed messages but wasn't it only bout a dozen players that went to Qatar under Ratten?
Then Mick gets the entire list shipped off to the USofA after being in the seat for a week or so.
Pretty obvious that the previous board thought bringing Mick in would potentially see Carlton push for the flag, when they thought the list was top4 quality and that 2012 was an aberration due to injury and poor quality coaching.
The question really should be, does the new board see MM as the man to take the club on a five year rebuild? As it will take a long time to turn the list around.
HBF
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This.
Mick is the right person for the job and ground zero is now.
Make some hard calls on players at years end at get some more talent into the club either by FA, trade or via the draft.
I believe we do have a core of good players but there are way too many at Carlton still getting games that wouldn't get a game at any other club.
JuddsABlue
Norm Smith Medallist
I can think of three off the top of my head, Docherty, Everitt and Cripps, while out other two young/consistent players are Buckley and Menzel but they played some games last year
Our other newest recruits haven't played yet
Old Dark Blues
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So, only one player debut. Cripps.
This in a team that has had an huge number of late pre-season surgeries.
As for Mick Malthouse the last people who should be asked about him staying or going are Carlton supporters. The logic is astonishing.
"We sacked Ratten and shouldn't have. it's a bad look for the club. Coaches wont sign up."
So, lets keep a coach who is failing because we sacked other coaches who were doing far, far better with a worse list ?
A coach who is only there because of incredibly poor reactionary administration in the first place ?
Awesome logic. And how is keeping a coach who is failing, out of fear of making hard calls - a better look for the club ? Finally, no potential coach is going to sign up, if you persist with a reject. Grant Thomas is probably licking his chops.
How about we sit down and find a coach who doesn't just understand the modern game, but who has a vision for the next phase in the game. Someone we can build a 5 year rebuild around. Maybe we should get the best mid-field coach in the AFL, that assistant from the Hawks.
Pretty much everyone agrees - how can a team like Carlton push the Hawks to almost win (last quarter aside), should have beaten the cats, were a kick or poor umpiring decision away from being on 32 points.
Yet then have lost to the bottom team TWICE, lose to GWS, will most likely lose to saints (losing to bottom 3 times in a season - new record ?).
How is it possible to take a team from pushing top 8 consistently, 2012 we had record number of injuries 17 starting 22, and then absolutely tank with a far better list, better support, etc. How ?
The most GLARING factor in all of this - is the inconsistency amongst the players. The most GLARING, face slapping-ly obvious, is the mental deficiency of players, not WANTING to win, not PLAYING HARD, all manner of mental issues being displayed right through the list, traits which should be skill level agnostic.
Guts and determination are entirely outside of skill - and the consistency of players, guts - courage and overall determination to play hard and for a win - is absolutely totally and utterly bereft at Carlton - does not exist.
What happens between the players ears, the mind set of the players is down to the coach - period.
Buckley, Judd, Simpson, Robinson - there ends the courage. Mick has nothing to do with these players being courageous. They are aberrations to his rule.
The ability to blame the players for being utterly un-motivated is astonishing down at la-la-laguna land. The ability to blame players for every thing that is the coaches fault. Psychologically we are the worst team in the AFL - except Tigers. Skill level - probably the worst. But no. It's all players.
Ironically - from the Hawks website :-
"Ratten brings with him a wealth of knowledge of the modern game and has been lauded for his tactics and ability to relate to players."
I'm not entirely sure what Micks job is. Weird media skills and "vision" ? Apparently his most important asset is simply that he shouldn't be changed because it looks bad and he's great for the long term......awesome.
No one at a club should be sacrosanct, and certainly not for ridiculous reasons based on pithy sayings. Especially when that person is quite clearly not delivering at the very core of their job.
I have no doubt Mick was great with the players at Collingwood - no doubt. However the mental results being delivered at Carlton, by the coach, are the type of thing we used to see under Frawley at Tigers, Melbourne etc.
Rattens full bio from the Hawks website
"
Ratten joined the Hawks as an Assistant Coach in 2013, following his position as Senior Coach of Carlton.
A highly regarded football person, Ratten brings with him a wealth of knowledge of the modern game and has been lauded for his tactics and ability to relate to players.
He spent two years at Melbourne before returning to his former club, Carlton as an Assistant Coach in 2007. In that same year, Ratten took over the coaching reigns at the Blues as caretaker, before being appointed as the official Senior Coach at the conclusion of the 2007 season.
He took the Blues to the finals in 2009 - his second season at the helm and the first time that club had seen September action in seven years.
Carlton reached the finals between 2009-2011 under the tutelage of Ratten before an injury-plagued season in 2012 ended that run."
http://www.hawthornfc.com.au/football/coaches
Yup - best keep Mick in case we look foolish for a reactionary sacking of a coach.....
Not sure who went to Qatar, i thought the whole list did. Happy to see MM rebuild the list because quite simply there isnt anyone else that can. The off field shit needs to be sorted first. I dont buy the whole "we need three years before finals" crap, teams rise very quickly with strong backroom support.
Yes Cripps, but this is a fudged statistic, sure it would be nice to have more pushing through but that doesn't mean we haven't got young players coming through. Buckley became a regular, had played just one game prior this season. Menzel a similar thing, just had a handful of games last season. Graham in the VFL has only played a handful of games and is averaging over 30 disp and is bog every week, is not getting a game. Johnson will debut soon, he's a medium forward. Docherty had only played 14 games with the lions and has played 7 with us so far.
Won't be expecting to see too many debutantes for Carlton until some stage next season. At this stage many of them aren't quite ready or are injured.
Carlton aren't in a rush to fix this problem, they know that's not possible and won't work. They seem reluctant to play players in their first and second season in the seniors which frustrates a few of our supporters but that is how Malthouse has often done things, he has been known to let good young players sit in the VFL a while and hang onto the old ones a bit.
I'm not really stressed, we all know Carlton's drafting has been terrible between 2009-2012 and wasn't great prior to that. The last two drafting efforts seem to have gone well however.
Coach is unrelated to the results, I actually recon the list is worse than it has been performing. The best 22 is slow, full of holes and poorly skilled and it's been relatively competitive, kept up with Hawthorn and Geelong but has also lost to lesser sides like Brisbane and GWS which I think truely reflects the quality of the best 22.
If you took the best 22 and arranged them in order of quality the top half would be very good but the problem is the second half is woeful. You look at that bottom half and it's a wonder we have done as well as we have. The players in our best 22 is are no better than the ones in St Kilda or Brisbanes, if they are it's marginal, the reason we are better than those teams (debatable) is the coaching.
Carlton's list is like the face of a head. The brains inside the head are the real problem.
Well of course the hawks will talk up his coaching credentials on his bio. Ratten had a bucket load of first round draft picks and still never got them into the top 4. The Carlton board severely overrated this list and thought that MM was the missing piece of the puzzle and most their fans agreed with them. Last years finals series probably covered a few cracks in the list but now it's all unravelling.
But yeah let's say they sack mick, who will they employ as head coach? Give me 3 candidates who you think can do a job that mick can't...
Old Dark Blues
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As I was saying - anything and everything - just not the coach.
I especially like the allusion that Ratten had been receiving good drafts, but poor old Mick.
Here's an AFL side that had 11 first round draft picks playing vs GWS had I think 7 on the weekend.
Poor old Mick - players are completely inconsistent, have absolutely NO BASIC AFL skills one week, then are best in the AFL the following, can't tackle one week, at all, squibbing everything, smashing it the next. Can't run one week, can the next.
Basic skills, no courage, absolutely no desire, shocking consistency, absolutely everything wrong from a poor mental and basic skills perspective - but its all the young blokes fault. How about a culture of accountability that stops at the bottom....?
The saddest part about all of this, is that under Ratten, who had by FAR the worst hand dealt to him - it was always HIS fault and not the far worse list than Mick has.
Ratten takes the team which hadn't made the 8 - in 7 years to the finals in his second season. Mick inherits a far better team that had made the 8 every year but one since 2009, in order to go the next step - and then sends us to the bottom of the ladder.
I'm not calling for his head - but to think this guy is above scrutiny is mind numbing. Top 8 to bottom 4.
Players fault ......jeepers.
The Old Dark Navy's
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He was in career best form prior to being injured. Now he can't stay on the park and looks off the pace. Can still negate his opponent reasonably well but is struggling to have an impact himself. When players get older, being out of form is not beneficial to their future.
Old Dark Blues
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I'm not calling for him to be sacked - I'm calling for him to be accountable.
Further those number on draft picks are still there - and are now in their PRIME - what more - the entire team is better - far better.
The bio on the Hawks page simply states the facts - that's the beauty of it - don't talk it up one bit - pure facts and it paints a very damning picture.
The only part being talked up is him being lauded for his tactics and player connection - problem with that ?
Pretty sure there are new coaches at Melbourne, Dockers and Fremantle all showing incredible results...are you saying there is no point in looking for a new coach because none exist ?
You sure you aren't a Carlton supporter - because that's some awesome logic there.
The defence of Mick is nostalgic and whimsical, the defence of Ratten is facts.
We can't bring Ratten back, it's done - but Mick Malthouse escaping scrutiny is absurd.
Edit: Blaming the kids is even more absurd.
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Carlton are nowhere near as good as they were in the Ratten era because the majority of the list peaked in the ratten era. All our guns were at their peak in 2011.
We had some real guns firing when Ratten had all that success. Judd was at the peak of his powers and so was Fev. Jamison was peaking. Murphy had his best season. Carrazzo was at his peak. Waite was at his peak and had an outstanding year. Walker was at his peak. Scotland was at his peak. Simpson was at his peak. Russell was at his peak. Robinson was useful. Armfield peaked. Betts was at his peak. Everything went right in 2011. Half our best 22 are now past it or at least on the other side of the peak.
Most of our list peaked in 2011. We didn't draft well enough to keep it going and now our list is a rabble. Forget who is coaching, the list wasnt managed well and we drafted poorly and here we are.
We had some real guns firing when Ratten had all that success. Judd was at the peak of his powers and so was Fev. Jamison was peaking. Murphy had his best season. Carrazzo was at his peak. Waite was at his peak and had an outstanding year. Walker was at his peak. Scotland was at his peak. Simpson was at his peak. Russell was at his peak. Robinson was useful. Armfield peaked. Betts was at his peak. Everything went right in 2011. Half our best 22 are now past it or at least on the other side of the peak.
Most of our list peaked in 2011. We didn't draft well enough to keep it going and now our list is a rabble. Forget who is coaching, the list wasnt managed well and we drafted poorly and here we are.
We were going no where under ratten. Over achieved which forced the club to over rate our list hence squandering picks on top up players like Warnock and Mclean. His trading, drafting and lack of development of players is as much to blame as anything.
FB: Touhy
HB: Simpson ##### Docherty
C: Yarran Murphy Everitt
HF: Thomas Henderson
FF: Menzel Casboult
Foll: ##### Judd Gibbs
Int: Curnow Robinson
Decent kids: Buckley, Cripps, Graham
Passed it: Carrazzo, Jamison, Waite
Limited trade value: Warnock, Garlett, Kreuzer, Walker
Most of the rest are either has beens or never was.
Trade what you can for those I mentioned. If you can get some extra second and third round picks and you are confident in the depth of the draft it has to be done.
I can't see any other viable option than to give up players like St Kilda have done with Goddard, Dal Santo and McEvoy. They managed to get good picks in for them. I don't even know if Carlton have those kind of players to ship out but they need to get whatever pick upgrades they can manage. The ruckman are a good place to start as they usually have value and when you are a bad side you can make do with a bad ruck, even Sydney are doing fine with Derickx. If Warnock or Kreuzer have any value then find out now. Walker is a waste in a bad side. Garlett is horrendously out of sort and may as well be gone.
HB: Simpson ##### Docherty
C: Yarran Murphy Everitt
HF: Thomas Henderson
FF: Menzel Casboult
Foll: ##### Judd Gibbs
Int: Curnow Robinson
Decent kids: Buckley, Cripps, Graham
Passed it: Carrazzo, Jamison, Waite
Limited trade value: Warnock, Garlett, Kreuzer, Walker
Most of the rest are either has beens or never was.
Trade what you can for those I mentioned. If you can get some extra second and third round picks and you are confident in the depth of the draft it has to be done.
I can't see any other viable option than to give up players like St Kilda have done with Goddard, Dal Santo and McEvoy. They managed to get good picks in for them. I don't even know if Carlton have those kind of players to ship out but they need to get whatever pick upgrades they can manage. The ruckman are a good place to start as they usually have value and when you are a bad side you can make do with a bad ruck, even Sydney are doing fine with Derickx. If Warnock or Kreuzer have any value then find out now. Walker is a waste in a bad side. Garlett is horrendously out of sort and may as well be gone.
JuddsABlue
Norm Smith Medallist
People forget we had these same issues under Ratten and he couldn't fix them
We lost to a terrible Gold Coast side under him and regularly couldn't beat sides the doggies etc despite being in the 8
We lost to a terrible Gold Coast side under him and regularly couldn't beat sides the doggies etc despite being in the 8
In 2011 Fevola wasn't even on the Carlton list.
Yes Judd, Scotland, Simpson and Carazzo were veterans at the 27-28 age but the rest is dribble.
Russell wasn't in the team in the second half of the year.
Murphy had his best season and just turned 24, he should now be compared with Selwood and Pendles as the games best mids - hasn't happened
Jamison was 25 and missed half of 2011, him playing full seasons was part of the story about how they would make the jump to top4
Waite played 12 games in 2011, missed entire second half...again a full season from him was part of the story about jumping to top4
Walker was 25 and had a great year across half forward....why the feck isn't he played there anymore??
Why did guys like Armfield, Robinson peak?
Why have guys like Garlett, Gibbs, Murphy, Yarran, Warnock, Henderson etc not matured into better players??
Plenty of Carlton players still in the peak 24-28 age now, but MM not getting results.
Perhaps Ratten got the best out of an ordinary list?
- Sep 13, 2013
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The question for Carlton is who do trade?
Warnock or Kruzier?
They can't play in the same side but are too good to be playing VFL. They both must have currency, Hampson got pick 28 or something so these guys must bring in something.
Warnock or Kruzier?
They can't play in the same side but are too good to be playing VFL. They both must have currency, Hampson got pick 28 or something so these guys must bring in something.
