Preview Changes: R19 v Carlton

[SellarStardom]

Good call: Stengle in and Wilson, need to reward form in the SANFL. Same said of Otten too as the best defender.

Bad call:
Dropping Betts instead of Murphy, but we should be reading Betts these days.
Otten replacing Keith when we could have brought in Butts, Hamill or Scholl.
Wilson coming in and not replacing MCrouch
No FOG or Gooch

 

[jaytex]

Most are beyond melts, we’re at resignation.

melting implies care factor.

personally, i'm at the level of smile benignly and read a book with the game on mute.

 

[marty36]

Good call: Stengle in and Wilson, need to reward form in the SANFL. Same said of Otten too as the best defender.

Bad call:
Dropping Betts instead of Murphy, but we should be reading Betts these days.
Otten replacing Keith when we could have brought in Butts, Hamill or Scholl.
Wilson coming in and not replacing MCrouch
No FOG or Gooch

Will betts be retiring year end though and if so right call

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

So Keath has an ankle injury according to Hart.

So why is he an emergency?

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Gotta reward SANFL form...

So we should draft Zane Kirkwood

 

[jenny61_99]

We'll win comfortably due to the rocket our players received and Carlton will be pretty cocky as well.
If we lose though it's a disaster.

Or not?

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

So why is he an emergency?

If someone pulls put we'd prefer to play an injured player over a kid

Really fostering a great atmosphere down there among the playing group.

 

[jenny61_99]

I never miss a Crows game. Always make plans around the time slots we have so i can watch live or be there and not even miss a minute

GC game: Went out for dinner. Taped it and didn't bother watching

Ess Game: Watched it, but missed the start

Melb game: Didn't see any of it bar the last 2 mins (lol)

That's a huge deal for me. The passion is fading and it saddens me. Maybe 2017 broke me more than i care to admit? I have never taken in so much footy media and time as i did in 2017. I have never ignored it as much from October 2017 and until the start of 2018 either

Something has to give. It just gas to. Surely someone wakes the fu** up to what's going on down there

Surely that's the classic definition of a fairweather supporter?

 

[Murray2503]

This was one of the big issues last week when Jacobs, Douglas, Gibbs and Wilson dominated the midfield minutes (and they still lost to the bottom team - that should tell you something) while guys like Gooch and Jones were stuck in roles that don't help their development.

If we are serious about developing for the future (because we are a LONG way off the pace right now), then both Jones and Gooch play mostly midfield minutes. No point rolling Gibbs and Douglas in there for 90 % of the game.

This is something our so called football director Mark Riccuito and his sidekick Burton should be demanding. There seems to be a total lack of direction from the top.

 

[srv23]

Well this is just about the last straw for me. The season started woefully and then we started to see some changes. Jenkins, Gibbs dropped. ROB by default getting games. Himmelberg in the forward line, Jones running through the midfield at times. Persisting with Gooch through up and down form and he stated to show some positive signs. Started to get on a roll, get some wins on the board and it looked like thing were turning around.
Then it all started to go downhill - rushing Douglas back when Jones etc were killing it in the sanfl and then giving him 4 games where he was terrible before dropping him ( no doubt hoping they could ride through his bad form while we kept winning...), talking up Davis all year as the Lynch replacement only to not play him when Lynch was out for a length of time, only to bring him in against Geelong in Geelong (albeit not playing the Lynch role) and dropping him after 1 game. Bringing in Stengle and him kicking 3 on debut (albeit against witches hats) to drop him after 1 game when we were playing a team known for their pace. Keeping Mackay in the sanfl only to panic and bring him back as the losses started to pile up. Dropping Stengle instead of Mackay after the Gold Coast game despite Mackay not being able to dominate against the aforementioned witches hats.

Which brings me to this weeks ins...

Stengle - great to see him back but what was the point of giving him 1 game, dropping him and then bringing him back again. Do the selectors have any sort of plan when they debut a player. yo yo selection does nothing for a young players confidence. Now instead of this being his third game in a row where he is starting to get the feel for AFL footy, he's going out there thinking he's just going to get dropped for Eddie next week.

Eddie out - he has been in pretty disappointing form this year but a player of his age and where he is at with his footy, should have been carefully managed throughout the season. he should have missed games for rests well and truly before now. A refreshed Eddie could still provide some magic come finals if his body had been properly managed. Instead he is just about cooked with 5 games to go..However when I would like to see him in is when he has Stengle in that forward line with him, takes the pressure off a bit and allows him to mentor Stengle as well.

Wilson - what is the plan with this guy? Does our list management even know. Do we see him on our list next year as a genuine viable AFL option, or is he a likely delist or pure sanfl depth player. If we see him as a genuine option, his sanfl form has well and truly warranted his selection long before now. If he is not, then there is no point playing him this week in preference to guys like Gooch/Jones who we clearly feel have some sort of future. As it stands he is a slow inside mid, much like the rest of our midfield. I hope he does well but fully expecting him to be dropped next week for Douglas after not dominating in 1 game.

Keath - is he injured or managed. If he's injured why is he an emergency. Mixed messages from the selectors...

Tex - clearly not fit. Has had some moments this year but overall has struggled to impact consistently. Another who should have been better managed throughout the season. Just cause he is captain should not make him immune to having rests, spells in the sanfl. Especially when we have an exciting first round, South Australian key forward floating around in the 2's who we absolutely need to develop.

And finally, Andy ****ing Otten. This is it, the last straw. His selection is everything wrong with the club. He is not in any way able to play the Keath role - the interceptor off half back. He is an immobile KPP - could take the role of Harto/Tex but he plays about as much like Alex Keath as he plays like Mitch McGovern or Jake Lever.. He should not even be on the list next year. We don't need 3 big talls plus Kelly against Carlton. We are obsessively sticking to a structure that has proven time and time again to be ineffective. We are too tall and too slow on probably the worst ground in the comp to be tall and slow. If it wasn't for the draft pick swap I honestly don't think I'd care if we lost because its only when we hit absolute rock bottom that anyone at the club can be bothered changing anything. We are a risk averse club, too scared to actually do what it takes to try and win a flag. Its a sobering and depressing thought that the powerbrokers at the club I support do not genuinely seem to want to win a premiership and do everything it takes to make it happen.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Well this is just about the last straw for me. The season started woefully and then we started to see some changes. Jenkins, Gibbs dropped. ROB by default getting games. Himmelberg in the forward line, Jones running through the midfield at times. Persisting with Gooch through up and down form and he stated to show some positive signs. Started to get on a roll, get some wins on the board and it looked like thing were turning around.
Then it all started to go downhill - rushing Douglas back when Jones etc were killing it in the sanfl and then giving him 4 games where he was terrible before dropping him ( no doubt hoping they could ride through his bad form while we kept winning...), talking up Davis all year as the Lynch replacement only to not play him when Lynch was out for a length of time, only to bring him in against Geelong in Geelong (albeit not playing the Lynch role) and dropping him after 1 game. Bringing in Stengle and him kicking 3 on debut (albeit against witches hats) to drop him after 1 game when we were playing a team known for their pace. Keeping Mackay in the sanfl only to panic and bring him back as the losses started to pile up. Dropping Stengle instead of Mackay after the Gold Coast game despite Mackay not being able to dominate against the aforementioned witches hats.

Which brings me to this weeks ins...

Stengle - great to see him back but what was the point of giving him 1 game, dropping him and then bringing him back again. Do the selectors have any sort of plan when they debut a player. yo yo selection does nothing for a young players confidence. Now instead of this being his third game in a row where he is starting to get the feel for AFL footy, he's going out there thinking he's just going to get dropped for Eddie next week.

Eddie out - he has been in pretty disappointing form this year but a player of his age and where he is at with his footy, should have been carefully managed throughout the season. he should have missed games for rests well and truly before now. A refreshed Eddie could still provide some magic come finals if his body had been properly managed. Instead he is just about cooked with 5 games to go..However when I would like to see him in is when he has Stengle in that forward line with him, takes the pressure off a bit and allows him to mentor Stengle as well.

Wilson - what is the plan with this guy? Does our list management even know. Do we see him on our list next year as a genuine viable AFL option, or is he a likely delist or pure sanfl depth player. If we see him as a genuine option, his sanfl form has well and truly warranted his selection long before now. If he is not, then there is no point playing him this week in preference to guys like Gooch/Jones who we clearly feel have some sort of future. As it stands he is a slow inside mid, much like the rest of our midfield. I hope he does well but fully expecting him to be dropped next week for Douglas after not dominating in 1 game.

Keath - is he injured or managed. If he's injured why is he an emergency. Mixed messages from the selectors...

Tex - clearly not fit. Has had some moments this year but overall has struggled to impact consistently. Another who should have been better managed throughout the season. Just cause he is captain should not make him immune to having rests, spells in the sanfl. Especially when we have an exciting first round, South Australian key forward floating around in the 2's who we absolutely need to develop.

And finally, Andy ******* Otten. This is it, the last straw. His selection is everything wrong with the club. He is not in any way able to play the Keath role - the interceptor off half back. He is an immobile KPP - could take the role of Harto/Tex but he plays about as much like Alex Keath as he plays like Mitch McGovern or Jake Lever.. He should not even be on the list next year. We don't need 3 big talls plus Kelly against Carlton. We are obsessively sticking to a structure that has proven time and time again to be ineffective. We are too tall and too slow on probably the worst ground in the comp to be old and slow. If it wasn't for the draft pick swap I honestly don't think I'd care if we lost because its only when we hit absolute rock bottom that anyone at the club can be bothered changing anything. We are a risk averse club, too scared to actually do what it takes to try and win a flag. Its a sobering and depressing thought that the powerbrokers at the club I support do not genuinely seem to want to win a premiership and do everything it takes to make it happen.

Bullseye on every front

 

[Vader]

This appears to be an issue with the club, we are using the wrong business model. If the coach only needs to make finals to be re-employed then we are going to struggle to get to the pointy end. If we want strong, continued success then we need to have organic growth in our squad at all times. This will mean at times, we will miss the eight but if we are blooding youngsters and reaching kpis of players 21 reaching 50 games at AFL level, then we will always have the scope to improve the next year.

As it is, we are driving this bus into the ground in the hope we can get four more stops down the road

That's the problem with a club culture (driven by the board) which demands that the team makes the finals every year. No senior coach, since Cornes in 1991/92 has survived after missing the finals for 2 consecutive years.

The AFL's equalisation policies mean that bottoming out for 2-3 years is the only way of obtaining the truly elite talent, unless you get really lucky with F/S or NGA players. The AFC's policy is that bottoming out, and rebuilding properly, is unacceptable. This is a large part of why we are consistently mid-table, rarely in the bottom 6 teams, but also rarely in the top-4.

Note that this is not driven by the coach. Pyke's job is to focus on the short term - winning this week's game, then winning enough games to qualify for the finals, then winning finals. If Pyke fails to do that for 2 years in a row, then he faces the sack. This is driven by the Board.

 

[Tex200]

Well this is just about the last straw for me. The season started woefully and then we started to see some changes. Jenkins, Gibbs dropped. ROB by default getting games. Himmelberg in the forward line, Jones running through the midfield at times. Persisting with Gooch through up and down form and he stated to show some positive signs. Started to get on a roll, get some wins on the board and it looked like thing were turning around.
Then it all started to go downhill - rushing Douglas back when Jones etc were killing it in the sanfl and then giving him 4 games where he was terrible before dropping him ( no doubt hoping they could ride through his bad form while we kept winning...), talking up Davis all year as the Lynch replacement only to not play him when Lynch was out for a length of time, only to bring him in against Geelong in Geelong (albeit not playing the Lynch role) and dropping him after 1 game. Bringing in Stengle and him kicking 3 on debut (albeit against witches hats) to drop him after 1 game when we were playing a team known for their pace. Keeping Mackay in the sanfl only to panic and bring him back as the losses started to pile up. Dropping Stengle instead of Mackay after the Gold Coast game despite Mackay not being able to dominate against the aforementioned witches hats.

Which brings me to this weeks ins...

Stengle - great to see him back but what was the point of giving him 1 game, dropping him and then bringing him back again. Do the selectors have any sort of plan when they debut a player. yo yo selection does nothing for a young players confidence. Now instead of this being his third game in a row where he is starting to get the feel for AFL footy, he's going out there thinking he's just going to get dropped for Eddie next week.

Eddie out - he has been in pretty disappointing form this year but a player of his age and where he is at with his footy, should have been carefully managed throughout the season. he should have missed games for rests well and truly before now. A refreshed Eddie could still provide some magic come finals if his body had been properly managed. Instead he is just about cooked with 5 games to go..However when I would like to see him in is when he has Stengle in that forward line with him, takes the pressure off a bit and allows him to mentor Stengle as well.

Wilson - what is the plan with this guy? Does our list management even know. Do we see him on our list next year as a genuine viable AFL option, or is he a likely delist or pure sanfl depth player. If we see him as a genuine option, his sanfl form has well and truly warranted his selection long before now. If he is not, then there is no point playing him this week in preference to guys like Gooch/Jones who we clearly feel have some sort of future. As it stands he is a slow inside mid, much like the rest of our midfield. I hope he does well but fully expecting him to be dropped next week for Douglas after not dominating in 1 game.

Keath - is he injured or managed. If he's injured why is he an emergency. Mixed messages from the selectors...

Tex - clearly not fit. Has had some moments this year but overall has struggled to impact consistently. Another who should have been better managed throughout the season. Just cause he is captain should not make him immune to having rests, spells in the sanfl. Especially when we have an exciting first round, South Australian key forward floating around in the 2's who we absolutely need to develop.

And finally, Andy ******* Otten. This is it, the last straw. His selection is everything wrong with the club. He is not in any way able to play the Keath role - the interceptor off half back. He is an immobile KPP - could take the role of Harto/Tex but he plays about as much like Alex Keath as he plays like Mitch McGovern or Jake Lever.. He should not even be on the list next year. We don't need 3 big talls plus Kelly against Carlton. We are obsessively sticking to a structure that has proven time and time again to be ineffective. We are too tall and too slow on probably the worst ground in the comp to be old and slow. If it wasn't for the draft pick swap I honestly don't think I'd care if we lost because its only when we hit absolute rock bottom that anyone at the club can be bothered changing anything. We are a risk averse club, too scared to actually do what it takes to try and win a flag. Its a sobering and depressing thought that the powerbrokers at the club I support do not genuinely seem to want to win a premiership and do everything it takes to make it happen.

Boom

 

[DJ75]

Jones has hit the wall for the season, no shame in that. We didn't get the games into him we should have done.

Gooch has to play midfield this week no question.

Has he or is he being played in a sh!t position?

Really with young guys that have talent like that (and Ned as well), you should play them early, give them some time off around mid season (and by off I mean not playing at all) and then get them ready for end of season. It's just player management.

 

[FAITH]

Or not?

To those who accept mediocrity it won't be.

 

[Geoffa32]

That's the problem with a club culture (driven by the board) which demands that the team makes the finals every year. No senior coach, since Cornes in 1991/92 has survived after missing the finals for 2 consecutive years.

The AFL's equalisation policies mean that bottoming out for 2-3 years is the only way of obtaining the truly elite talent, unless you get really lucky with F/S or NGA players. The AFC's policy is that bottoming out, and rebuilding properly, is unacceptable. This is a large part of why we are consistently mid-table, rarely in the bottom 6 teams, but also rarely in the top-4.

Note that this is not driven by the coach. Pyke's job is to focus on the short term - winning this week's game, then winning enough games to qualify for the finals, then winning finals. If Pyke fails to do that for 2 years in a row, then he faces the sack. This is driven by the Board.

However we have been contenders in similar cycles to that of the supposed boom/bust theory.

05/06 genuine contenders. Lost Prelims to WCE.
2012. Made a Prelim. A contender? Maybe not.
2015 to 2017. Building, coach murdered 2015, then a contender for 2016 and 17.

I would argue that it would be difficult to bottom out (bottom four) given oir home ground advantage and scheduling generally means 8 to 9 wins a year.

What our club has issue with is getting the job done in big Finals. We choke on the big stage.

Having said that with Carlton's two picks we can replicate one "bust" season and bring in some elite talent.

Going forward the boom bust cycle will be less common due to future pick trading.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[FR0GGY]

Surely that's the classic definition of a fairweather supporter?

Nah, he said he didn’t watch the GC game.

 

[Tex200]

Surely that's the classic definition of a fairweather supporter?

Maybe if it’s an amateur team.

But seeing as our ‘club’ has seen fit to corporatise itself with protected board appointments etc - and then see fit to gauge $500 odd a year to go - I think we transcend supporters don’t we?

Shareholders may be more apt

 

[Glenno23]

Surely that's the classic definition of a fairweather supporter?

Sure. Call me that if you will. But i prefer to enjoy my hobbies outside of work. And if i don't enjoy it as much, why would i continue to do that hobby?

I've still been to games this year and i'm even flying across to Melbourne for tomorrow's game at short notice when we're down atm. But yeah, call me fair weather, IDGAF. I just don't see the point in engaging as much with something i don't enjoy as much as i used too (especially when i don't agree with the decision making of some of the people in charge. Now i am only 1 person, but i'm hardly the only supporter feeling as though our development and approach to 2018 and 2019 has been nothing short of bumbling) when i could be doing other things that bring me more joy

 

[hey shorty]

Gotta reward SANFL form...

So we should draft Zane Kirkwood

We like guys with hairstyles, Zane has no hair.

 

[hey shorty]

Has he or is he being played in a sh!t position?

Really with young guys that have talent like that (and Ned as well), you should play them early, give them some time off around mid season (and by off I mean not playing at all) and then get them ready for end of season. It's just player management.

Nah he's hit the wall, most kids do in their first year.

We missed a trick for sure.

 

[FR0GGY]

Maybe we really just want to beat glenelg?

 

[feenix67]

Midfield goes missing in the third quarter, resulting in 5 i50s for the quarter... so let's drop the forward most used to the MCG against his old team and another forward who, whilst quiet, is the only one apparently capable of taking a contested grab up there.

I've given up trying to follow this selection shit. Maybe I just don't have a clue about football.

 

[Tex200]

Midfield goes missing in the third quarter, resulting in 5 i50s for the quarter... so let's drop the forward most used to the MCG against his old team and another forward who, whilst quiet, is the only one apparently capable of taking a contested grab up there.

I've given up trying to follow this selection s**t. Maybe I just don't have a clue about football.

The midfield is THE biggest problem we have. But who can we drop when they are all rolled gold, A grade midfielders?

 

[Vader]

However we have been contenders in similar cycles to that of the supposed boom/bust theory.

05/06 genuine contenders. Lost Prelims to WCE.
2012. Made a Prelim. A contender? Maybe not.
2015 to 2017. Building, coach murdered 2015, then a contender for 2016 and 17.

I would argue that it would be difficult to bottom out (bottom four) given oir home ground advantage and scheduling generally means 8 to 9 wins a year.

What our club has issue with is getting the job done in big Finals. We choke on the big stage.

Having said that with Carlton's two picks we can replicate one "bust" season and bring in some elite talent.

Going forward the boom bust cycle will be less common due to future pick trading.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Home Ground Advantage doesn't make it impossible to bottom out. Freo had seasons with less than 4 wins in the late-90s. It can be done, if your list is bad enough, and there's a solid determination to rebuild completely.

That said, this is not the year to be bottoming out, as our draft position is no longer relevant to our draft position.

Our team has failed on the big stage due to a lack of elite talent... and the reason we don't have elite talent is because we've never finished at the bottom of the ladder (and when we did, we traded that pick to North Melbourne for a player who was past his use-by date).