Coaching Staff Eye on our Coaching (Ratten, Lade, Batchelor, Slater sign on)

[Diehard Saint]

I suppose that is the optimistic spin, whereas mine is the pessimistic spin. Hope you're right.

Just came back from Launceston...I'm feeling extremely optimistic

 

[austinnn]

... I love stats too (some say too much)

How many people say that exactly?

 

[Masquerade]

Great read mate. Assuming as teams play each other the margin will always be 0. Eg St.Kilda def Hawthorn by 75 points, We move to +75 and Hawthorn to -75. Etc etc.

We really need a new section for stats. I love looking at numbers and seeing trends in the way we play and think it could be really interesting. Sir Skid thoughts?

Go read the last line again

Gotcha George

 

[Persevering Saint]

How many people say that exactly?

About 83.2%.

 

[VDS66]

About 83.2%.

Whoa... on fire there, Perse!

 

[borderbarry]

I like stats too, but only because I am good at arithmetic.

 

[sunny3193]

Does Stan the Statistician from Stradbroke Island ever post here?

 

[Masquerade]

Update on the fourth quarter ladder after Round 6.

Cats (5) +157
Giants (5) +108
Crows (6) +87
Tigers (5) +74
Eagles (3) +21
Dockers (4) +17
Druggos (4) +5
Port Power (4) +5
Bulldogs (3) -5
Pies (2) -16
Dreamons (3) -19
Suns (2) -27
Carlton (2) -27
Swans (1) -37
St Kilda (3) -42
Kangaroos (1) -87
Hawks (1) -95
Lions (0) -119

At the conclusion of this round, the Lions are the only team to not win a fourth quarter in 2017. The ladder didn't change much this round with no blowouts at all during any of the 9 fourth quarters played.

After this, we're still fourth from the bottom, although the Swans are now in our sights. We're coming up against the Giants who are formidable team at the worst of times but seem to do quite well late in games. Something to watch for on Friday night. I might start doing bi, or even tri, weekly updates for this simply because there doesn't seem to be much point changing it weekly or at least posting it on here every week. Hopefully by then, we're further up.

 

[StCicatriz]

last couple of games i havent rated the coaching at all. i feel we are making serious selections blunders that do not line up with who our opposition is and the game plan richo is employing. i would give it a D+ against carlton and a D- against sydney. mainly because we just didnt learn from the previous game despite it being against a better side.

i feel richos game plan is a throw back to the defencive pressure game plans of 2009-2013, i felt the game went past that when hawthorn started using the short possession game to cut through the zone and frustrated the oppositions defencive pressure by keeping the ball off them. the dogs then overcame that with a game plan built on players winning 1 on 1 contests. i'm not sure richo is tactical enough, nor does he have those around him that are tactical enough to give us an extra edge in the coaches box. i feel he's a development coach first and foremost, who will develop a really strong base for our players. but i'm not sure he will be the coach we need as the players leave the development phase and start contending.

so going back to the performance vs carlton and sydney. i felt prior to the carlton game we had a much better list and should have been able to easily account for them as long as we got the coaching right. then we made a blunder in re-calling dunstan as carltons strength is not contested footy which we have been quite strong in this year with the acquisition of steel and the development of ross. i felt carltons strength was the defencive setup and their outside run. outside run being one of weaknesses given our issues with running out games and the spread. so why we would select dunstan whilst dropping wright just seemed strange. then come game day we saw bolton employ the hawthorn disposal/retention game plan thats been proven to work against the out dated defencive pressure one that richo uses, it took us 2 and a bit qtrs to re-adjust to that. it looked like it was completely foreign to our players, which is a warning in its self.

then come sydney you think richo would learn but then he kept dunstan in the side despite him being ineffective inside against carlton, stevens coming back plus the inbalance between outside vs in. given our run and spread issue i would have thought a runner coming in would make sense. we brought one in, in mckenzie but he was used across the hbf to replace webster, which was even stranger given mckenzies ball use issues and our issues down back with the ball. roberton and webster being our only good ball uses. so you would have thought savage coming in for webster would have made more sense. some also questioned if bringing in mccartin against sydney was setting him up to fail. in hind sight i think having a lumbering mccartin who struggles with repeated efforts and defencive pressure over bruce who does well in that regard especially when we already we going with a pretty lumbering side that was inside/height heavy seemed to play into sydneys hands. come game day they ran out of our fwd line at ease, especially through the corridor. whilst we couldnt hit a target coming out of the backline. it just felt like a massive blunder at the selection table for the 2nd week in a row, with a game plan that is now 4 years out of date with no plan b or the ability to tactically setup against opposition sides.

 

[Rors]

last couple of games i havent rated the coaching at all. i feel we are making serious selections blunders that do not line up with who our opposition is and the game plan richo is employing. i would give it a D+ against carlton and a D- against sydney. mainly because we just didnt learn from the previous game despite it being against a better side.

i feel richos game plan is a throw back to the defencive pressure game plans of 2009-2013, i felt the game went past that when hawthorn started using the short possession game to cut through the zone and frustrated the oppositions defencive pressure by keeping the ball off them. the dogs then overcame that with a game plan built on players winning 1 on 1 contests. i'm not sure richo is tactical enough, nor does he have those around him that are tactical enough to give us an extra edge in the coaches box. i feel he's a development coach first and foremost, who will develop a really strong base for our players. but i'm not sure he will be the coach we need as the players leave the development phase and start contending.

so going back to the performance vs carlton and sydney. i felt prior to the carlton game we had a much better list and should have been able to easily account for them as long as we got the coaching right. then we made a blunder in re-calling dunstan as carltons strength is not contested footy which we have been quite strong in this year with the acquisition of steel and the development of ross. i felt carltons strength was the defencive setup and their outside run. outside run being one of weaknesses given our issues with running out games and the spread. so why we would select dunstan whilst dropping wright just seemed strange. then come game day we saw bolton employ the hawthorn disposal/retention game plan thats been proven to work against the out dated defencive pressure one that richo uses, it took us 2 and a bit qtrs to re-adjust to that. it looked like it was completely foreign to our players, which is a warning in its self.

then come sydney you think richo would learn but then he kept dunstan in the side despite him being ineffective inside against carlton, stevens coming back plus the inbalance between outside vs in. given our run and spread issue i would have thought a runner coming in would make sense. we brought one in, in mckenzie but he was used across the hbf to replace webster, which was even stranger given mckenzies ball use issues and our issues down back with the ball. roberton and webster being our only good ball uses. so you would have thought savage coming in for webster would have made more sense. some also questioned if bringing in mccartin against sydney was setting him up to fail. in hind sight i think having a lumbering mccartin who struggles with repeated efforts and defencive pressure over bruce who does well in that regard especially when we already we going with a pretty lumbering side that was inside/height heavy seemed to play into sydneys hands. come game day they ran out of our fwd line at ease, especially through the corridor. whilst we couldnt hit a target coming out of the backline. it just felt like a massive blunder at the selection table for the 2nd week in a row, with a game plan that is now 4 years out of date with no plan b or the ability to tactically setup against opposition sides.

Kudos to Horse for his Hannerbery/Montagna match up in their forward line in the first quarter. Hanners is such a confidence player & having him 'resting' forward for a quarter or so & kicking goals on our most unaccountable defensive end player in Joey was genius. It brought him right into the game early & also 'saved' his tank for long midfield spells where he absolutely smashed us from then on

 

[Saintbloke]

Massive blunder not persisting with Minch -we need him to develop with game time, and missed his nip and disposal yesterday. I think the Swans must have been rubbing their hands with glee at selection time when it was Bruce out, Paddy in and Minch out...let's run 'em off their feet!

 

[VDS66]

We lost so this week our coaches are s**t.

 

[Geary Is GOAT]

The only part i really agree with is Dunstan and Steven. Dunstan had to come in against Calton with Steven and Armitage both unavailable but i don't think he should have played against Sydney. Minch should have stayed and Dunstan should have come out.

>with a game plan that is now 4 years out of date with no plan b or the ability to tactically setup against opposition sides.

I just think that's totally wrong to be honest. For starters we haven't used the same game plan for 4 years. 4 years ago our only game plan was 'tackle hard and force turnovers' because we didn't have the list or experience to do anything else. We weren't switching and there wasn't even a forward press 4 years ago. Again to say we don't have the ability to tactically setup against opposition is just incorrect. If we aren't setting up then what is occurring? The boys are just running out and making it up as they go along?


The forward press is a huge part of our game. It also accounts for our bomb it long entry style play. Get it deep and hold it in. Unfortunately if we don't hold it in then it comes out even faster and we get scored on out the back because all our defenders are pushed up the ground. Yesterday we didn't adapt when it wasn't working and I'm not sure if that was player side or coach side because i have seen us adapt before just look at the GWS game and the third quarter.

 

[Mowman]

We lost so this week our coaches are s**t.

Would they be the same coaches that coached against GWS, 12 goal win Hawks and won against Carlton last week ?

 

[plugger66]

I will give you the tip. It wouldn't have mattered who we picked yesterday. We were beaten badly and that has little to do with the coaching. Its a season where its going to happen a bit to every side.

 

[StCicatriz]

Kudos to Horse for his Hannerbery/Montagna match up in their forward line in the first quarter. Hanners is such a confidence player & having him 'resting' forward for a quarter or so & kicking goals on our most unaccountable defensive end player in Joey was genius. It brought him right into the game early & also 'saved' his tank for long midfield spells where he absolutely smashed us from then on

i know when we first got richo everyone was stoked and the call at the time was that he will be a great development coach but we were unsure on if he would be the premiership coach

i'm starting to see the early signs that he might not be the guy to lead the club into the next phase where we contend and play finals

 

[plugger66]

i know when we first got richo everyone was stoked and the call at the time was that he will be a great development coach but we were unsure on if he would be the premiership coach

i'm starting to see the early signs that he might not be the guy to lead the club into the next phase where we contend and play finals

Did you see those signs after beating gws and what are those signs


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[VDS66]

Correct. They were GOAT for those weeks.

Would they be the same coaches that coached against GWS, 12 goal win Hawks and won against Carlton last week ?

 

[MrFoster]

last couple of games i havent rated the coaching at all. i feel we are making serious selections blunders that do not line up with who our opposition is and the game plan richo is employing. i would give it a D+ against carlton and a D- against sydney. mainly because we just didnt learn from the previous game despite it being against a better side.

i feel richos game plan is a throw back to the defencive pressure game plans of 2009-2013, i felt the game went past that when hawthorn started using the short possession game to cut through the zone and frustrated the oppositions defencive pressure by keeping the ball off them. the dogs then overcame that with a game plan built on players winning 1 on 1 contests. i'm not sure richo is tactical enough, nor does he have those around him that are tactical enough to give us an extra edge in the coaches box. i feel he's a development coach first and foremost, who will develop a really strong base for our players. but i'm not sure he will be the coach we need as the players leave the development phase and start contending.

so going back to the performance vs carlton and sydney. i felt prior to the carlton game we had a much better list and should have been able to easily account for them as long as we got the coaching right. then we made a blunder in re-calling dunstan as carltons strength is not contested footy which we have been quite strong in this year with the acquisition of steel and the development of ross. i felt carltons strength was the defencive setup and their outside run. outside run being one of weaknesses given our issues with running out games and the spread. so why we would select dunstan whilst dropping wright just seemed strange. then come game day we saw bolton employ the hawthorn disposal/retention game plan thats been proven to work against the out dated defencive pressure one that richo uses, it took us 2 and a bit qtrs to re-adjust to that. it looked like it was completely foreign to our players, which is a warning in its self.

then come sydney you think richo would learn but then he kept dunstan in the side despite him being ineffective inside against carlton, stevens coming back plus the inbalance between outside vs in. given our run and spread issue i would have thought a runner coming in would make sense. we brought one in, in mckenzie but he was used across the hbf to replace webster, which was even stranger given mckenzies ball use issues and our issues down back with the ball. roberton and webster being our only good ball uses. so you would have thought savage coming in for webster would have made more sense. some also questioned if bringing in mccartin against sydney was setting him up to fail. in hind sight i think having a lumbering mccartin who struggles with repeated efforts and defencive pressure over bruce who does well in that regard especially when we already we going with a pretty lumbering side that was inside/height heavy seemed to play into sydneys hands. come game day they ran out of our fwd line at ease, especially through the corridor. whilst we couldnt hit a target coming out of the backline. it just felt like a massive blunder at the selection table for the 2nd week in a row, with a game plan that is now 4 years out of date with no plan b or the ability to tactically setup against opposition sides.

Not sure I agree with you on the Carlton game re: selection error. We lost Stevens from the GWS game, so it's like for like is not a bad decision. Dunstan had 28, linked well with other mids, but did made some mistakes. For his first game back, he is not the reason we didn't beat Carlton easily.

I do agree with you on tactics/game plan.
3 observations.
1. Carlton play an untra-defensive/flood game so we were always going to struggle kicking high scores. Kicking to hot spots all the time is also playing into their hands. We should have lowered our eyes a little.

2. Carlton also play a kicking game.. and they used Kreuzer and Wietering they two best contested markers to their advantage. Apart from getting tighter on these two players, not sure what more we could have done. Maybe playing more man on man from their kick ins?

3. Composure. We play a manic style this year, which seem to be play on at all cost. This is tiring and when executed poorly, can be easily found out. Case in point is Dunstan in the 3rd Quarter.

Sydney is just a repeat of Carlton except Sydney is a lot better at applying pressure and finishing off. Mccartin and Mckenzie were the wrong choices I believe. But now they are in the side, we should give them another game to settle.

 

[StCicatriz]

Not sure I agree with you on the Carlton game re: selection error. We lost Stevens from the GWS game, so it's like for like is not a bad decision. Dunstan had 28, linked well with other mids, but did made some mistakes. For his first game back, he is not the reason we didn't beat Carlton easily.

I do agree with you on tactics/game plan.
3 observations.
1. Carlton play an untra-defensive/flood game so we were always going to struggle kicking high scores. Kicking to hot spots all the time is also playing into their hands. We should have lowered our eyes a little.

2. Carlton also play a kicking game.. and they used Kreuzer and Wietering they two best contested markers to their advantage. Apart from getting tighter on these two players, not sure what more we could have done. Maybe playing more man on man from their kick ins?

3. Composure. We play a manic style this year, which seem to be play on at all cost. This is tiring and when executed poorly, can be easily found out. Case in point is Dunstan in the 3rd Quarter.

Sydney is just a repeat of Carlton except Sydney is a lot better at applying pressure and finishing off. Mccartin and Mckenzie were the wrong choices I believe. But now they are in the side, we should give them another game to settle.

i agree mate and on the point 3 the other issue with the manic style against possession based teams, is it saps the team of energy. its why the manic pressure game plans of 2009-2013 are not around anymore. the nail in the coffin of it was wce against hawthorn in the grand final. just ran themselves absolutely ragged on a wider ground with absolutely no influence on the game

its just far too old to be THE game plan. its almost a decade old

teams will have pressure as a pillar of their game but its not the be all and end all to the point its manic hunt, run and gun game style. you need to have different elements in there and different approaches

 

[austinnn]

The only part i really agree with is Dunstan and Steven. Dunstan had to come in against Calton with Steven and Armitage both unavailable but i don't think he should have played against Sydney. Minch should have stayed and Dunstan should have come out.

>with a game plan that is now 4 years out of date with no plan b or the ability to tactically setup against opposition sides.

I just think that's totally wrong to be honest. For starters we haven't used the same game plan for 4 years. 4 years ago our only game plan was 'tackle hard and force turnovers' because we didn't have the list or experience to do anything else. We weren't switching and there wasn't even a forward press 4 years ago. Again to say we don't have the ability to tactically setup against opposition is just incorrect. If we aren't setting up then what is occurring? The boys are just running out and making it up as they go along?


The forward press is a huge part of our game. It also accounts for our bomb it long entry style play. Get it deep and hold it in. Unfortunately if we don't hold it in then it comes out even faster and we get scored on out the back because all our defenders are pushed up the ground. Yesterday we didn't adapt when it wasn't working and I'm not sure if that was player side or coach side because i have seen us adapt before just look at the GWS game and the third quarter.

I don't think he's saying our club used that plan 4 years ago, he just saying it was used by clubs 4 years ago.

 

[Stewart66]

last couple of games i havent rated the coaching at all. i feel we are making serious selections blunders that do not line up with who our opposition is and the game plan richo is employing. i would give it a D+ against carlton and a D- against sydney. mainly because we just didnt learn from the previous game despite it being against a better side.

i feel richos game plan is a throw back to the defencive pressure game plans of 2009-2013, i felt the game went past that when hawthorn started using the short possession game to cut through the zone and frustrated the oppositions defencive pressure by keeping the ball off them. the dogs then overcame that with a game plan built on players winning 1 on 1 contests. i'm not sure richo is tactical enough, nor does he have those around him that are tactical enough to give us an extra edge in the coaches box. i feel he's a development coach first and foremost, who will develop a really strong base for our players. but i'm not sure he will be the coach we need as the players leave the development phase and start contending.

so going back to the performance vs carlton and sydney. i felt prior to the carlton game we had a much better list and should have been able to easily account for them as long as we got the coaching right. then we made a blunder in re-calling dunstan as carltons strength is not contested footy which we have been quite strong in this year with the acquisition of steel and the development of ross. i felt carltons strength was the defencive setup and their outside run. outside run being one of weaknesses given our issues with running out games and the spread. so why we would select dunstan whilst dropping wright just seemed strange. then come game day we saw bolton employ the hawthorn disposal/retention game plan thats been proven to work against the out dated defencive pressure one that richo uses, it took us 2 and a bit qtrs to re-adjust to that. it looked like it was completely foreign to our players, which is a warning in its self.

then come sydney you think richo would learn but then he kept dunstan in the side despite him being ineffective inside against carlton, stevens coming back plus the inbalance between outside vs in. given our run and spread issue i would have thought a runner coming in would make sense. we brought one in, in mckenzie but he was used across the hbf to replace webster, which was even stranger given mckenzies ball use issues and our issues down back with the ball. roberton and webster being our only good ball uses. so you would have thought savage coming in for webster would have made more sense. some also questioned if bringing in mccartin against sydney was setting him up to fail. in hind sight i think having a lumbering mccartin who struggles with repeated efforts and defencive pressure over bruce who does well in that regard especially when we already we going with a pretty lumbering side that was inside/height heavy seemed to play into sydneys hands. come game day they ran out of our fwd line at ease, especially through the corridor. whilst we couldnt hit a target coming out of the backline. it just felt like a massive blunder at the selection table for the 2nd week in a row, with a game plan that is now 4 years out of date with no plan b or the ability to tactically setup against opposition sides.

After a loss we go to the same well

Disposals.
Saints. 424. Swans 431

Clearances
Saints 37 Swans 28

Centre

Saints 13 Swans 12


Stoppages

Saints 24 Swans 16

Marks inside 50 ...

Saints 6. Swans 18 ########

We butchered the football kicking constantly to the wrong option , or over their head or along the ground.

Skills have cost us for a long time....very even year .


Hence why recruiting is aimed at Guys who can kick the ball


Ps Ross the boss was embarrassed by Carlton tactics today they should have been 8 goals up.
at quarter time..

 

[austinnn]

i know when we first got richo everyone was stoked and the call at the time was that he will be a great development coach but we were unsure on if he would be the premiership coach

i'm starting to see the early signs that he might not be the guy to lead the club into the next phase where we contend and play finals

If we accept for a moment - at least hypothetically for the more faithful/patient - that Richo ISN'T the coach we need for the final leg, or maybe the Finals leg, then i wonder what direction we'd go choosing that coach.

Would we go for the experienced proven choice, ie someone who has won at least one GF?

Last 16 premiership coaches in reverse chronological order (no. of premierships):

Beverage (1)
Clarkson (4)
Longmire (1)
Scott, C (1)
Malthouse (1+2)
Thompson (2)
Worsfold (1)
Roos (1)
Williams (1)
Matthews (3+1)
Sheedy (4)
Pagan (2)
Blight (2)
Parkin (3+1)
Joyce (2)
Jeans (3+1)

Or would we go for a highly-rated assistant, (essentially what we did the last 3 times in Lyon, Watters and Richardson), or highly-rated lower level premiership coach like Ayers?

Would we try and strike it lucky with a young maverick coach who we think can develop his own style to beat the current strong brands and create something new? Who?

Lets be real: Unless things really go pearshaped, I don't see us dumping Richo and taking our chances with someone new driving our painstakingly assembled list, trying to win the players' confidence, installing their own brand. Would set our window back a couple of years unless our team were just that amazing to adapt immediately. Unless of course we promoted Kingsley, Walsh, Gilbee or another of our assistants.

The other thing the club might hypothetically consider is replacing Director of Strategy Sexton and keeping Richo, which eases continuity but again you'd need bedding-in time for the new strategy to be fully ingrained.

For better or worse, I think we'll stick with Richo and hope he and his crew have the resources to rise to the occasion.

It seems like most of the angst against him in this thread is not tactics strictly speaking, but selection, so maybe they need to rethink their methods there.

 

[Persevering Saint]

last couple of games i havent rated the coaching at all. i feel we are making serious selections blunders that do not line up with who our opposition is and the game plan richo is employing. i would give it a D+ against carlton and a D- against sydney. mainly because we just didnt learn from the previous game despite it being against a better side.

i feel richos game plan is a throw back to the defencive pressure game plans of 2009-2013, i felt the game went past that when hawthorn started using the short possession game to cut through the zone and frustrated the oppositions defencive pressure by keeping the ball off them. the dogs then overcame that with a game plan built on players winning 1 on 1 contests. i'm not sure richo is tactical enough, nor does he have those around him that are tactical enough to give us an extra edge in the coaches box. i feel he's a development coach first and foremost, who will develop a really strong base for our players. but i'm not sure he will be the coach we need as the players leave the development phase and start contending.

so going back to the performance vs carlton and sydney. i felt prior to the carlton game we had a much better list and should have been able to easily account for them as long as we got the coaching right. then we made a blunder in re-calling dunstan as carltons strength is not contested footy which we have been quite strong in this year with the acquisition of steel and the development of ross. i felt carltons strength was the defencive setup and their outside run. outside run being one of weaknesses given our issues with running out games and the spread. so why we would select dunstan whilst dropping wright just seemed strange. then come game day we saw bolton employ the hawthorn disposal/retention game plan thats been proven to work against the out dated defencive pressure one that richo uses, it took us 2 and a bit qtrs to re-adjust to that. it looked like it was completely foreign to our players, which is a warning in its self.

then come sydney you think richo would learn but then he kept dunstan in the side despite him being ineffective inside against carlton, stevens coming back plus the inbalance between outside vs in. given our run and spread issue i would have thought a runner coming in would make sense. we brought one in, in mckenzie but he was used across the hbf to replace webster, which was even stranger given mckenzies ball use issues and our issues down back with the ball. roberton and webster being our only good ball uses. so you would have thought savage coming in for webster would have made more sense. some also questioned if bringing in mccartin against sydney was setting him up to fail. in hind sight i think having a lumbering mccartin who struggles with repeated efforts and defencive pressure over bruce who does well in that regard especially when we already we going with a pretty lumbering side that was inside/height heavy seemed to play into sydneys hands. come game day they ran out of our fwd line at ease, especially through the corridor. whilst we couldnt hit a target coming out of the backline. it just felt like a massive blunder at the selection table for the 2nd week in a row, with a game plan that is now 4 years out of date with no plan b or the ability to tactically setup against opposition sides.

I categorically agree with you that the selections were very misguided. But everybody makes mistakes. I'm not of the mind that these mistakes have got to sacking territory.

Please, can we find some kind of middle way, between recognition of the coaches' mistakes, and wanting them fired?

 

[Persevering Saint]

We lost so this week our coaches are s**t.

We lost so we do what I hope the coaches themselves are doing: figuring out where they stuffed up, so they can improve.