List Mgmt. GWS Giants Academy News & Discussion

[InSpectre]

Also probably worth noting thay regardless of view Eddies comments are, as ever, unhelpful. As are his grandstanding buddies Landsburger, Clark and Twomey. Its a worthwhile discussion, but hysteria is unhelpful.

 

[Giant Strides]

Megaphone negotiation generally never ends well for all sides, although it sometimes does work when the controlling body is weak. There should have been very detailed and robust discussions on all of this - the initial concessions, academy boundaries, methodology etc - at the start, so there should not be too many surprises now. There should have been options to reconsider in future - either more or less assistance - depending on how well each of the measures went. This should be discussed between AFL House and the clubs in a rational manner, but not fought via one club president's media connections.

Although I don't 100% agree with Raymann, I do partially agree, and as I've said earlier would not have a problem with reducing the Riverina zone (but I would with eliminating it entirely given the years of work put in to date & there's still areas in competition with the rugby codes). Why I don't fully agree is that in the end GWS is looking to gain NSW kids onto its list. Part of what's been lost in the hysteria (which does though relate back to the initial start-up concessions) is that GWS could take 4 kids last year and 4 kids this year because it has several R1 picks. The point of the academy discount is to recompense for $ spent in running the academy - but to be honest, you could eliminate the discount and GWS could still get most of the NSW kids it wants with the amount of picks it has. (And while it sticks in the craw to change the rules half-way through, perhaps that sliding scale of discounts is an option to look at going forward.) It would be well for the critics to remember that if they removed all the Riverina or even just Murray kids from academy bidding, GWS would just take Victorian kids instead.

Yes it's a complicated issue to untangle now, but that just calls for cool heads not hotheads.

 

[Giant Strides]

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2016-05-07/big-move-a-big-plus-for-nsw-draft-hope-will-setterfield

Big move pays dividends for NSW draft hope Will Setterfield

WHEN Will Setterfield decided to move from Albury to take up a boarding scholarship at Caulfield Grammar two years ago, he always hoped it would advance his football ambitions.

He had heard about the private school football program and how he might be able to get involved with a TAC Cup side when in Melbourne, and loved the idea of finishing school and heading straight out on to the oval for a kick-to-kick. One thing he didn't consider was the better access to AFL games.

Setterfield has been a part of the Giants' academy since he was 13, with most of his involvement coming in his formative years with local training sessions and some trial games. GWS academy head coach Jason Saddington also keeps in touch.

 

[captainMyCaptain]

 

[Ichabod Noodle]

One wonders what a young man with the initials of... maybe.... AT, might be thinking right about now.

Jeez I've joined a team that's being beat up by a team full of the likes of Jed Lamb, Liam Sumner.....

But then again, he can blame our concessions and academy for this loss - because we would not have necessarily traded out the players we did in order to get academy players - and we could afford to lose them because we had so many from the concessions to begin with. So obviously the reason Collingwood lost today is because of the concessions and the academy.

 

[Turbocat]

Guys .. is this a Giants only thread? Can understand it if you only want to discuss it among your own.

 

[Colonial]

Guys .. is this a Giants only thread? Can understand it if you only want to discuss it among your own.

If your discussing info i cant see why not.
If your here for sillyness then no.

 

[dlanod]

Tweeting the U18s game - @dlanodss

 

[dlanod]

Really like the look of Lynch. Hard to get a read on Macreadie - Ballenden has been quiet but we'll need to see both up against other opposition to see if it is just Harrison's work. Setterfield definitely came into it in the second quarter more.

 

[Giant Strides]

Guys .. is this a Giants only thread? Can understand it if you only want to discuss it among your own.

Turbocat - no, plenty of non-GWS posters have been here, and from what I've seen of your posting you have pretty reasonable views and happy for rational discussion, which is all we ask for, even if they oppose ours. Happy to argue our case, but as always on a home board, it will be fairly passionately favouring our view!

 

[Matchu]

The guys on AFL Game Day this morning were saying GWS don't run an academy. It's just a zone that they pick players from. That they don't actually develop those players like the other three northern academies. I guess the argument they were trying to make was that the Victorian football system develops those players as opposed to an academy program geared to producing talent that wouldn't have otherwise reached those heights.

Is this true or were they getting carried away on Channel 7?

 

[dlanod]

The guys on AFL Game Day this morning were saying GWS don't run an academy. It's just a zone that they pick players from. That they don't actually develop those players like the other three northern academies. I guess the argument they were trying to make was that the Victorian football system develops those players as opposed to an academy program geared to producing talent that wouldn't have otherwise reached those heights.

Is this true or were they getting carried away on Channel 7?

Well I guess someone needs to break it to Mutch that when he was travelling 600 km to GWS academy training sessions each fortnight in Broken Hill he must've been dreaming.

 

[dlanod]

Mutch finished with 31 disposals and was generally effective. Setterfield was strong in the contest but didn't seem like he got a heap of the ball. Lynch took some nice marks and ran well for a massive lad. Marshall kicked four goals after being quiet for most of the game. Spargo has great balance and skills and nice speed, but he's a midget at the moment. Macreadie held Bellenden well.

 

[Matchu]

Well I guess someone needs to break it to Mutch that when he was travelling 600 km to GWS academy training sessions each fortnight in Broken Hill he must've been dreaming.

Where does he play his footy now?

 

[dlanod]

Where does he play his footy now?

Bendigo. Curse those private schools skimming off our best talent so they can win their school leagues.

 

[Matchu]

Bendigo. Curse those private schools skimming off our best talent so they can win their school leagues.

So there is merit to the argument that Victoria is developing a fair amount of the GWS academy players?

 

[dlanod]

So there is merit to the argument that Victoria is developing a fair amount of the GWS academy players?

Depends if you consider the only years that an Aussie Rules player develops is when they're 17 and/or 18, bearing in mind most have been part of the academy since they were 12 or 13. I find that difficult to believe, in which case I view this as another one of their stupid "throw enough unresearched s**t and people only remember the s**t, not the rebuttals".

 

[Giant Strides]

So there is merit to the argument that Victoria is developing a fair amount of the GWS academy players?

Saw the program, posted about it elsewhere. Just crap & lies.

The nub of the problem is there's no black and white answer. If GWS didn't put the academy training into these kids - on top of their local team training - would they be in a position that a Victorian public school would give them a scholarship? Maybe for the occasionally naturally super-talented player, but not for the majority. Hopper took his scholarship and walked into captaincy of his high school team - don't try to tell us that the school 'developed' his game. Yes in the sense of improved/honed it in a higher standard competition, but not his basic, individual skills. Victorians, and presumably SA & WA, take player development for granted, particularly in the metropolitan areas. Much, much harder in the rural areas - but more so in NSW where there's less acess & less skilled coaches and more competition from the rugby codes, soccer and cricket. (I wouldn't have a problem with some academy system in rural areas elsewhere, just don't know how they do it for sure to compare.)

My son has played AFL in the Hawkesbury region of Sydney & in Canberra, Under 11s to Under 13s. At that age they identify the more talented kids, have training runs, camps, coaches etc. Nothing too advanced - don't want to break the kids, and numbers involved are 'lots', which get whittled down over the years. So the statement about 'no coaches, no structure, no player development' is pure garbage. BT needs to pull his head out of his arse, and get out of either his TV studio or the private schools that he frequents to understand about AFL in another state!

 

[Giant Strides]

Really like the look of Lynch.

Thoughts on whether he's a viable option for GWS? What role? Main draft or rookie chance?

 

[Matchu]

Depends if you consider the only years that an Aussie Rules player develops is when they're 17 and/or 18, bearing in mind most have been part of the academy since they were 12 or 13. I find that difficult to believe, in which case I view this as another one of their stupid "throw enough unresearched s**t and people only remember the s**t, not the rebuttals".

Saw the program, posted about it elsewhere. Just crap & lies.

The nub of the problem is there's no black and white answer. If GWS didn't put the academy training into these kids - on top of their local team training - would they be in a position that a Victorian public school would give them a scholarship? Maybe for the occasionally naturally super-talented player, but not for the majority. Hopper took his scholarship and walked into captaincy of his high school team - don't try to tell us that the school 'developed' his game. Yes in the sense of improved/honed it in a higher standard competition, but not his basic, individual skills. Victorians, and presumably SA & WA, take player development for granted, particularly in the metropolitan areas. Much, much harder in the rural areas - but more so in NSW where there's less acess & less skilled coaches and more competition from the rugby codes, soccer and cricket. (I wouldn't have a problem with some academy system in rural areas elsewhere, just don't know how they do it for sure to compare.)

My son has played AFL in the Hawkesbury region of Sydney & in Canberra, Under 11s to Under 13s. At that age they identify the more talented kids, have training runs, camps, coaches etc. Nothing too advanced - don't want to break the kids, and numbers involved are 'lots', which get whittled down over the years. So the statement about 'no coaches, no structure, no player development' is pure garbage. BT needs to pull his head out of his arse, and get out of either his TV studio or the private schools that he frequents to understand about AFL in another state!

The only circumstance directly related to this would be the Queensland-New South Wales border. For those who don't know, the Northern Rivers region (NSW) borders the Gold Coast (QLD) and many Northern Rivers residents work/go to school in Queensland. So what did the AFL do? Anything north of the Richmond Valley/Tenterfield is a part of the Suns academy zone, despite being inside NSW. Anything south of Grafton is in the Swans academy zone.

• Rookie drafted as an academy player by the Suns in 2013, Jarred Ellis was raised in Lennox Head (NSW) and schooled in Lismore (NSW). He played his junior football for the Ballina Bombers (NSW) and later joined the Broadbeach Cats (QLD) to further his chances of being drafted. He continued to live in Lennox Head (NSW) and did the long drive to Broadbeach (QLD) for every training session and game.
• Rookie drafted as an academy player by the Suns last year, Jesse Joyce was raised in Tweed Heads (NSW) and schooled in Palm Beach-Currumbin (QLD). He played his junior football for Palm Beach-Currumbin (QLD) while continuing to live in Tweed Heads (NSW).

Those are two examples of NSW residents being zoned to the Suns because they live near the border.

Under GWS conditions - the Swans should have been aloud to draft Ellis as an academy player, right?

 

[_GT_]

Just rediculous to postulate that 'Victoria' is developing kids for GWS to cherry pick. What are families to do if they want to combine a Grammar style senior school education with quality footy competition? If / when Sydney elite schools offer the same combination, then fair enough if those families in our academy don't take that opportunity. All we can do in the short term is invest time in the formative years and stay engaged with those kids who spend their last couple of school years down south.

 

[dlanod]

Under GWS conditions - the Swans should have been aloud to draft Ellis as an academy player, right?

No. The academy zones are defined to be mutually exclusive. GWS operates under the same conditions as Sydney, as does the Gold Coast and Brisbane - the zones just cover different areas.

This all seems like a pretty pathetic and failing search for "gotchas".

 

[Turbocat]

If your discussing info i cant see why not.
If your here for sillyness then no.

Turbocat - no, plenty of non-GWS posters have been here, and from what I've seen of your posting you have pretty reasonable views and happy for rational discussion, which is all we ask for, even if they oppose ours. Happy to argue our case, but as always on a home board, it will be fairly passionately favouring our view!

Silliness can sometimes depend on one's opinion... but I understand what you mean. I have no wish to come on here and troll , but I also understand that some if not all of you have pretty strong ideas , the Crows board last year re..Danger was a no go zone ..really just didn't want any outside input.
If the mods wish for me to stop and move on , just let me know...

I heard an interview yesterday on 774 that involved a business man (sorry cant remember) he put a lot of money into the Academies but has now stopped. He had strong views , and had some valid points imo but as we all do , we have our biases..and he had his. However , he made me think on the subject..not sure if it is available as a podcast.

I think that the intent of Academies is getting mixed into the discussion of advantages , strength of the GWS side , and more than anything.. the potential strength in the next 5-10 years. Another way of saying that is the potential weakness or failure of other clubs due to what they perceive as excessive advantages.

I seriously doubt anyone from any club would not want players to be found, developed and added to the overall draft pool. From NSW, QLD , from anywhere. The more players the better. The debating point is access , should it be exclusive and never ending , should it be limited , should it be exclusively limited to players of a non afl background , should it be provincially NSW , should it be linked to how much development the feeder club adds etc.

The current state of Gold Coast is a counter point to the concerns being expressed over the current and future strength of GWS. One may ask.. is that what the general AFL wants? When I say general AFL , I mean the admin and all the other clubs. Again , a development club looking like it may need to reset and start again 6 years in , would not be a great thought for any imo. It looks like they will need more attention and advantages and money. So its in everyones interest that the Northern clubs are not "basket case's". The is a huge difference in where GWS currently is and what it looks like Gold Coast is and what may have to be done up there. These things can change reasonable quickly but atpit the NSW teams look potentially strong and the QLD teams look like they are presenting issues.

I have heard the the statement that the objective is to make the GWS and the other expansion clubs. "strong". This is where parochial interests kick in. Again , imo , in a perfect world most would say ..Id like to see GWS strong or Gold Coast strong... just as long as my club is strong as well. Self interest is always key. Id say most in Vic would say its good to see GWS or GC make the finals , much like when a bottom side finally gets good, and makes the finals. There is an underdog type mindset..Good on them , great to see, well done. Geelong had that in 07, people where glad to see Geelong after 44 years to win a flag, but after that , it didn't take long before many where ... "get rid of those mongrels.bloody Father Sons etc etc" .. once you start winning you can be assured , momentum will gather against you. Its because in the end..if one club is strong, the others are weaker. All clubs have their issues , their supporters , their expectations and its a high pressure environment. 40M , 50M , 60M dollars questions will be asked , performance expected and demanded.

There is no perfect resolution because all want the outcome that puts them in a better position to win.They certainly don't want to be in a worse position than their opponents. In such a hard comp , every little advantage is in some's mind a huge one.

So to my mind which is nothing more than someone who supports a provincial club and want success for it , yet also wants the comp to flourish... I think it important that the Northern clubs have enough talent to achieve success , but not so much that it appears that what is being created is abnormally strong. Its not always about what is..its about what appears... cause that is appearance is enough to crank up the competitive juices. The FatherSon is the example of that. to my mind.

So I guess thats where I see it ..you need to talent and have got a lot of it. All clubs need talent and success but how much can the afl leverage the rest of the comp to ensure that the Northern clubs are not long term drains? ...yet at the same time don't make GWS so strong that it brings other problems and uproar.

 

[Giant Strides]

I think that the intent of Academies is getting mixed into the discussion of advantages , strength of the GWS side , and more than anything.. the potential strength in the next 5-10 years. Another way of saying that is the potential weakness or failure of other clubs due to what they perceive as excessive advantages.

I seriously doubt anyone from any club would not want players to be found, developed and added to the overall draft pool. From NSW, QLD , from anywhere. The more players the better. The debating point is access , should it be exclusive and never ending , should it be limited , should it be exclusively limited to players of a non afl background , should it be provincially NSW , should it be linked to how much development the feeder club adds etc.

Thanks Turbocat, a post from the heart and the head.

My view of the issue. The modern comp developed from a Victorian-centric model. The majority of players were Victorian, with a few drawn in from the traditional AFL states of SA, WA and Tasmania, increasing as time went by. Expansion occurred - forget the Bears because that was a failure, Swans were transplanted, but the two clubs from each of SA & WA probably brought in initially a wave of talent from their states. So, essentially, Victorian clubs could always choose a Victorian kid at any pick who had pretty good talent; or take a punt on someone else - mainly SA or WA but occasionally Qld, NSW etc if talent was considered high. Similarly, the SA & WA sides could pretty much pick a talented home state player or choose the best Victorian at each of their draft picks. Those clubs didn't complain too much 'cos it was better than it was in the old days when the SANFL & WAFL got raided. Everyone ignored any complaints that Brisbane or Sydney had.

Times have slowly changed, it's more of a 'me' generation. 'I want what I want and I want it now.' Kids are less likely to accept being forced to go somewhere they don't really want to go - often that's just away from home (listened to that line from Adam Treloar this morning on AFL Game Day). Victorians tend to have that Victorian-centric view - it started as their comp, have to follow the way they've done it. If kids want to leave a club to go home, it must be badly run, or unsuccessful, or probably both. But realistically, with 18 clubs in the comp, you should only win it 1 year in 18, be in the finals 4 years every 9 - if you club is more successful, someone else's is more unsuccessful. So all clubs need to deal with lack of success. One way is to have more local players, so they have those family networks that help cope. Unfortunately, most Victorians just scoff at that - 'why should they be entitled to local players' - because it's just the way it is for their clubs.

So, zones go some way towards providing that - on the surface they draw in local kids, but don't work the best because they provide a hit and miss for the clubs and when there is a hit the other clubs cry 'free gift'. The academy idea IMO is good - forces development (and I have no issue with AFL dictating guidelines around the level of development that's acceptable) and widens the talent pool for all, but forces a reasonable degree of payment for a player. If a club wants a highly rated player, can still obtain them (e.g. Sydney & Callum Mills). GWS is looking to essentially take all NSW kids - IMV that's a good thing.

In terms of fairness, the ideal outcome is that at each pick for the northern clubs, they can choose a local kid who is available to them and about that pick level. The problem with no preferential treatment for academy kids is that there are 16 interstate clubs who could choose the kid deemed to be at the 'right' pick - whether it be 16 picks ahead or 1 pick ahead of the northern club - and the club that developed him loses him. And if they choose the next kid, well he could be honestly not worth that pick, and so you entrench mediocrity to get local players, or force clubs to choose an interstate kid and never solve the problem.

Some of the current angst is about GWS having multiple first round academy picks - but that's been achieved by trading out players. Yes that ability to trade and receive good draft picks comes from the startup concessions - but they aren't going away. If you took away the academy picks this year, GWS would just choose Victorian, SA or WA players - so it wouldn't solve the multiple R1 draft pick complaints that Victorians have, nor the issue of GWS wanting NSW-bred players. So it's actually a lose-lose outcome! Even if you removed the academy discounts (i.e. paid full points value), GWS could still get 3 to 4 academy kids anyway. So there's a bit of unrestrained, unthinking hysteria.

Starting a new club in any environment is always difficult - to work out that right balance between having some success but not too much. Did the AFL get it right? Well, many would argue 'no' when it came to GWS. But look at Gold Coast vs GWS. Quite close in concessions given to each - arguably the better concessions to GWS were to cover the fact that clubs would be awake to how GCS raided their players and make it more difficult (which was true) - but GWS looking to have progressed better at the moment (subjective opinion that will only be truly seen a decade in the future). In other words, there is a very fine line between a good outcome and a not so good outcome. And also, the hysteria is about GWS becoming a multi-premiership monster when it hasn't even made a final series yet! Still, I understand about not waiting until the fire's burning before trying to get it under control.

Bottom line, I'm pragmatic enough that I see that GWS in particular can compromise and still retain the core value that academies provide. But you'll have to forgive our suspicion that if we give anything up, the rest of the clubs will just come back for more. We've seen it with Brisbane, Sydney's COLA then its trading privileges, academy methodology - now working on removing the whole Riverina or the Murray area: can't help but presume it's Sudentenland today and Czechoslovakia tomorrow.

Have lots I could say, but that post is long enough. Cheers.

 

[Ichabod Noodle]

The guys on AFL Game Day this morning were saying GWS don't run an academy. It's just a zone that they pick players from. That they don't actually develop those players like the other three northern academies. I guess the argument they were trying to make was that the Victorian football system develops those players as opposed to an academy program geared to producing talent that wouldn't have otherwise reached those heights.

Is this true or were they getting carried away on Channel 7?

Please, please, please - read this - watch this. The video in this very excellent article needs to be watched by all. The article is recent, the video is from last year (Matt Flynn is now ours Jock Cornell at Geelong)

And even the second video about dealing with injuries gives an insight into what the academies provide.

Brian Taylor is so full of s#*t. Eddie is so full of s#*t.

Watch the video!!!!!

http://www.dailyadvertiser.com.au/story/3892912/riverina-riding-on-the-shoulders-of-giants/