Hawthorn's dominance over Collingwood

[Davo23]

They must get upset by the margins against us. They are always big wins, despite Cloke kicking 5 or 6 and Pendlebury & Swan having 30-40 touches every game.

We get frustrated by losing to Geelong, but at least we are competitive, and the games are close.

And we have won a couple of big games against the Cats

 

[grizzlym]

Heard Clarko say somethinh to the effect once - after Cloke had kicked a bag but Pies had lost - that he didn;t mind Cloke kicking bags against us because it would mean we'd win. They don't have enough true forwards to share the load. They play through Cloke a heap to get the score - if he kicks 5 or 6, they've looked for him probably 25 times. They become predictable.

I don't think that you can now really consistently be at the top with one or two key forwards and rely on mids to kick the remainder of your score. That's where the Pies are and it's showed them up for a few years now.

Someone mentioned it earlier in the thread too: they struggle with our small forwards too.

 

[moginie]

Well, let's look at the losses to them in that period 2007 - 2014.

R4 2010 - We had a lop sided team & missed Franklin. We were coming off consecutive six day breaks (ok, some might say that's not relevant). We were poor & it showed. Proof of that is that our highest goal scorer on the night was Jarryd Morton.

R15 2011 - Missing Roughead, Lewis & a decent backline. Disorganised. It showed.

PF 2011 - The Age had tipped this game to be a blowout. Collingwood would walk all over us. We lead for most of the game. At the end of the third quarter the game altering move is made. Whitecross, who had kept Maxwell in check for a good portion of the game is subbed out. His replacement is Suckling. Maxwell is very good in the last quarter. Suckling makes some fairly important errors. The momentum is against us. Even then, we hit the lead again with about 3 minutes to go.

The remaining 11 games appear to be straightforward in many respects. Hawthorn controls the momentum. We have a greater spread of matchwinners. Mitchell, Lewis, Hodge, Rioli, Breust, that number 23 bloke, Birchall, Lake, Osborne, Guerra et al.

 

[brew]

Well, let's look at the losses to them in that period 2007 - 2014.

R4 2010 - We had a lop sided team & missed Franklin. We were coming off consecutive six day breaks (ok, some might say that's not relevant). We were poor & it showed. Proof of that is that our highest goal scorer on the night was Jarryd Morton.

R15 2011 - Missing Roughead, Lewis & a decent backline. Disorganised. It showed.

PF 2011 - The Age had tipped this game to be a blowout. Collingwood would walk all over us. We lead for most of the game. At the end of the third quarter the game altering move is made. Whitecross, who had kept Maxwell in check for a good portion of the game is subbed out. His replacement is Suckling. Maxwell is very good in the last quarter. Suckling makes some fairly important errors. The momentum is against us. Even then, we hit the lead again with about 3 minutes to go.

The remaining 11 games appear to be straightforward in many respects. Hawthorn controls the momentum. We have a greater spread of matchwinners. Mitchell, Lewis, Hodge, Rioli, Breust, that number 23 bloke, Birchall, Lake, Osborne, Guerra et al.

I seem to remember Changa making the errors...

 

[moginie]

I seem to remember Changa making the errors...

You're right. He certainly did make some.

There were others.

 

[aquila]

When Malthouse was coach, they traditionally hugged the boundary lines, and our zone setup was perfect against clubs that played in that manner. With Buckley now in charge and their game plan having been tweaked i am not sure.

 

[HR Roughnstuf]

Umpires! I knew it was them! Even when it was the bears, I knew it was them.

Mr McLachlan there is an angry mob here to see you.

Do they have an appointment?

 

[Mitchell Madness]

When Malthouse was coach, they traditionally hugged the boundary lines, and our zone setup was perfect against clubs that played in that manner. With Buckley now in charge and their game plan having been tweaked i am not sure.

Huge myth about them using the boundary
They dominated through the corridor using a zig-zag gameplan, and only hugged the boundary when they were under pressure

They did it in one particular game (I think vs Geelong) and the media ran with it

 

[Thaihawk]

Why have the Pies so dominated us for our first 45 years?

Same answer.

Sorry, I don't think so. In our first 45 years, we were a poor struggling club, with a very small supporter base, which had little attraction to new players, and even a minimal chance of finals football. On the other hand, Collingwood were one of the wealthiest football clubs in the country, played finals on a regular basis, their unparallelled runner-up record bears testament to this, However, over the past 45 years, Hawthorn have a second to none premiership record, deep pockets, and are a club players want to play with. We are a better football club than Collingwood, have better coaches, better game plan, and finally have Collingwood players, and their coach believing they cannot beat us.

 

[Gone Critical]

Sorry to intrude but it is an interesting question. I think the Hawks have the best list in the comp but my view is probably also influenced by the ease of which you beat us. You make us look like no other team does, we are devoid of any plan and never look likely to win. Having said that in the 2011 R 15 game we did you easily. That was a rarity and for a change it looked like we were toying with you.

Begs the question why some teams just look so much better against others. Barring the 2 big ones Geelong are up and about against the Hawks but they only match you and just win. A better example is the Pies v Swans. They have had some great sides over the years and at times finished well above us on the ladder but we have a fantastic record against them. When I go to a Swans v Pies match, and I go to Sydney every year since about 06 it just doesn't really enter my mind that they may beat us. It's almost the total opposite with the Hawks yet since 2005 both teams have remained near the top of the ladder and won 2 flags.

Not sure I can really make sense of it but it seems real.

 

[Roddy]

Sorry to intrude but it is an interesting question. I think the Hawks have the best list in the comp but my view is probably also influenced by the ease of which you beat us. You make us look like no other team does, we are devoid of any plan and never look likely to win. Having said that in the 2011 R 15 game we did you easily. That was a rarity and for a change it looked like we were toying with you.

Begs the question why some teams just look so much better against others. Barring the 2 big ones Geelong are up and about against the Hawks but they only match you and just win. A better example is the Pies v Swans. They have had some great sides over the years and at times finished well above us on the ladder but we have a fantastic record against them. When I go to a Swans v Pies match, and I go to Sydney every year since about 06 it just doesn't really enter my mind that they may beat us. It's almost the total opposite with the Hawks yet since 2005 both teams have remained near the top of the ladder and won 2 flags.

Not sure I can really make sense of it but it seems real.

Yes it's a strange one, difficult to explain, except to say some sides just seem to match up really well on others, and after a while it becomes mental...

 

[seysearles]

Why are Hawthorn so dominant over Collingwood?

The same reason the bad guy always loses to the good guy in the movies.

 

[MrFujiMoto]

We were one of the first team to tell Nick Maxwell and Heath Shaw that they weren't going to run around free all day. Jordan Lewis kicking 5 on Heater scarred him for life I reckon. They were steamrolling teams before that game too and we came in and basically made them play man on man accountable footy in defense. We have done it ever since.

We also somehow manage to let Beams, Swan and Pendles rack up 450 possessions between them without any of them being able to influence the result. I think in the game I mentioned where Lewis booted 5 those three managed over 110 possessions between them and kicked 7 goals and still they had no influence

 

[MrFujiMoto]

Well, let's look at the losses to them in that period 2007 - 2014.

R4 2010 - We had a lop sided team & missed Franklin. We were coming off consecutive six day breaks (ok, some might say that's not relevant). We were poor & it showed. Proof of that is that our highest goal scorer on the night was Jarryd Morton.

R15 2011 - Missing Roughead, Lewis & a decent backline. Disorganised. It showed.

PF 2011 - The Age had tipped this game to be a blowout. Collingwood would walk all over us. We lead for most of the game. At the end of the third quarter the game altering move is made. Whitecross, who had kept Maxwell in check for a good portion of the game is subbed out. His replacement is Suckling. Maxwell is very good in the last quarter. Suckling makes some fairly important errors. The momentum is against us. Even then, we hit the lead again with about 3 minutes to go.

The remaining 11 games appear to be straightforward in many respects. Hawthorn controls the momentum. We have a greater spread of matchwinners. Mitchell, Lewis, Hodge, Rioli, Breust, that number 23 bloke, Birchall, Lake, Osborne, Guerra et al.

The round 15 game in 2011 we also kicked horribly. I think we kicked 4 easy behinds in the first qtr and they were mainly before Collingwood got going. I remember after that game thinking if we had taken those chances it would have been a very different story. Clarko said the same in his presser. Scoreboard pressure is huge in modern footy. We would have been 3 goals up before Collingwood scored from memory.

 

[Taskmaster]

Cause.

 

[Gone Critical]

The round 15 game in 2011 we also kicked horribly. I think we kicked 4 easy behinds in the first qtr and they were mainly before Collingwood got going. I remember after that game thinking if we had taken those chances it would have been a very different story. Clarko said the same in his presser. Scoreboard pressure is huge in modern footy. We would have been 3 goals up before Collingwood scored from memory.

Yeah but that is just the equivalent of Pies supporters using arguments about momentum changes to justify why we lost. On Saturday you beat us easily and there were no excuses. That game in 2011 Pies were flying on the top of the ladder, it was hear our high point of form. Doesn't matter what excuse you want to put up we smacked you that day. No way was there going to be a different result. It's a little victory in a long line of defeats. Arguing Collingwood were lucky that day or Hawks had excuses is wrong.

 

[MatthewSpangher]

Luke Hodge

 

[MrFujiMoto]

Yeah but that is just the equivalent of Pies supporters using arguments about momentum changes to justify why we lost. On Saturday you beat us easily and there were no excuses. That game in 2011 Pies were flying on the top of the ladder, it was hear our high point of form. Doesn't matter what excuse you want to put up we smacked you that day. No way was there going to be a different result. It's a little victory in a long line of defeats. Arguing Collingwood were lucky that day or Hawks had excuses is wrong.

I did not argue you were lucky. I simply stated that 3 goals to zip, when we had all the run of play is very different to 0.3. On top of that you guys come in and kick 3 straight in 5 minutes. It would have been very deflating to the Hawks players. I have no doubt the result would have been different had we taken our easy chance. At least 15 points different.

 

[Gone Critical]

I did not argue you were lucky. I simply stated that 3 goals to zip, when we had all the run of play is very different to 0.3. On top of that you guys come in and kick 3 straight in 5 minutes. It would have been very deflating to the Hawks players. I have no doubt the result would have been different had we taken our easy chance. At least 15 points different.

Yeah okay you can do that one. Guess on that basis you would have no problem in Collingwood supporters saying it could have been a "very different story" if Pendlebury didn't get pinged in the 3rd Q. Me I reckon that's a crock of sh-t. Collingwood were nearly 10 goals up early in the 3rd Q that day. Nothing was going to change to anything other than an easy Collingwood win.

 

[MrFujiMoto]

Yeah okay you can do that one. Guess on that basis you would have no problem in Collingwood supporters saying it could have been a "very different story" if Pendlebury didn't get pinged in the 3rd Q. Me I reckon that's a crock of sh-t. Collingwood were nearly 10 goals up early in the 3rd Q that day. Nothing was going to change to anything other than an easy Collingwood win.

Your view, my view. Who knows and who really cares. We could have gone down by 5 goals or got up by 5 goals. If one of those behinds is a goal it changes the whole game anyway because the ball would have been back in the middle. No-one will ever know and it doesn't really matter. I am happy with our record over you at the moment and I hope it continues later in the year.

 

[Gone Critical]

Your view, my view. Who knows and who really cares. We could have gone down by 5 goals or got up by 5 goals. If one of those behinds is a goal it changes the whole game anyway because the ball would have been back in the middle. No-one will ever know and it doesn't really matter. I am happy with our record over you at the moment and I hope it continues later in the year.

Yada yada. As I say it is exactly the argument some Collingwood supporters have tried about last week. You can believe it if you want. I have agreed you have a fantastic record over us and it is hard to see that changing for round 23. It does seem a bit precious to be unable to concede that Collingwood got you easily on one occasion in the last so many years when you have had so many convincing wins over us through that time

 

[Long Live HFC]

i don't know much about footy, but imo the pies were only unstoppable in 2010-2011 because of the gameplan and their discipline in executing it. their press and relentless pressure hid the fact they had some pretty average players. once teams worked out how to beat the press, the lack of quality in their second-tier players became obvious.

but again, i don't know much about footy. could be totally wrong.

 

[Hawks13]

Their defence doesn't match up well on our forward line

 

[MrFujiMoto]

Yada yada. As I say it is exactly the argument some Collingwood supporters have tried about last week. You can believe it if you want. I have agreed you have a fantastic record over us and it is hard to see that changing for round 23. It does seem a bit precious to be unable to concede that Collingwood got you easily on one occasion in the last so many years when you have had so many convincing wins over us through that time

You obviously don't understand what I was saying so I will make it simple. yada yada exactly. I stated things could have been different if we took our chances. Were they?? no! Did we?? No! Pretty bloody simple. I know you guys beat us. I made a comment to a Hawks supporter and you came in making it sound like I thought you were lucky to win. My comment was based on the fact that we could have been anything from 15 points closer to winners, who knows?? no one, thats who, because we weren't good enough on the day. Iam not precious about the loss, I could not really care less about the game tbh. You seem precious about the idea that I thought you were lucky, which I didn't. Be happy with the PF win, I would swap it for most of the H& A wins we have had over you.

 

[A Diakos]

Sorry to intrude but it is an interesting question. I think the Hawks have the best list in the comp but my view is probably also influenced by the ease of which you beat us. You make us look like no other team does, we are devoid of any plan and never look likely to win. Having said that in the 2011 R 15 game we did you easily. That was a rarity and for a change it looked like we were toying with you.

Begs the question why some teams just look so much better against others. Barring the 2 big ones Geelong are up and about against the Hawks but they only match you and just win. A better example is the Pies v Swans. They have had some great sides over the years and at times finished well above us on the ladder but we have a fantastic record against them. When I go to a Swans v Pies match, and I go to Sydney every year since about 06 it just doesn't really enter my mind that they may beat us. It's almost the total opposite with the Hawks yet since 2005 both teams have remained near the top of the ladder and won 2 flags.

Not sure I can really make sense of it but it seems real.

………

correction, Hawthorn have won 2 flags since 2005, Collingwood 1 since 2005 & Collingwood have won 4 flags in the last 80 years, with 11 of the 15 flags won before 1940.