Vic How would you rate Daniel Andrews' performance as Victorian Premier? - Part 7

[Sttew]

CFA new Volunteers were at an all-time high pre-COVID, but COVID meant training stopped (I was enrolled and had begun training which then ceased).

So it's not "since the UFU fight started", because volunteers were up post-UFU, it was because of COVID that volunteers couldn't complete training and there's now a back-log.

But whatever suits your narrative.

With due respect, the steady decline in CFA numbers appears to have started in 2010-2014. In 2014 the UFU brought its case against the CFA before the Federal Court seeking to have the CFA implement certain provisions of the 2010 enterprise agreement. The CFA and UFU have had a toxic relationship since then.

In 2010, the CFA had approx. 40,000 volunteer firefighters. In June 2016 there were 35,000 volunteer firefighters. By December 2020 the number had fallen to about 31,000.

I'm not sure where you're getting your stats about career high numbers from?

Drop in volunteer firefighter numbers in Victoria after horror bushfire year

Victoria's volunteer firefighting force has shrunk by nearly 3,500 members — its biggest fall in numbers since 2013.

www.abc.net.au

What’s the Victorian government’s dispute with the CFA about? And how will it affect the election?

Malcolm Turnbull is using Victoria’s long-running enterprise bargaining dispute between the CFA and firefighters’ union to highlight the Liberals’ credentials to challenge union militancy.

theconversation.com

 

[Gralin]

With due respect, the steady decline in CFA numbers appears to have started in 2010-2014. In 2014 the UFU brought its case against the CFA before the Federal Court seeking to have the CFA implement certain provisions of the 2010 enterprise agreement. The CFA and UFU have had a toxic relationship since then.

In 2010, the CFA had approx. 40,000 volunteer firefighters. In June 2016 there were 35,000 volunteer firefighters. By December 2020 the number had fallen to about 31,000.

I'm not sure where you're getting your stats about career high numbers from?

Drop in volunteer firefighter numbers in Victoria after horror bushfire year

Victoria's volunteer firefighting force has shrunk by nearly 3,500 members — its biggest fall in numbers since 2013.

www.abc.net.au

What’s the Victorian government’s dispute with the CFA about? And how will it affect the election?

Malcolm Turnbull is using Victoria’s long-running enterprise bargaining dispute between the CFA and firefighters’ union to highlight the Liberals’ credentials to challenge union militancy.

theconversation.com

at least read the article you link

 

[Sttew]

at least read the article you link
View attachment 1333934

View attachment 1333932

I did Gralin, perhaps you didn't ? The fall in numbers started well before then. Saint was arguing the fall was due to Covid, which may be partly true, BUT the stats show the decline started years earlier. Read my post again!!

 

[Saint]

I did Gralin, perhaps you didn't ? The fall in numbers started well before then. Saint was arguing the fall was due to Covid, which may be partly true, BUT the stats show the decline started years earlier. Read my post again!!

Your post shows the decline starting from 2010, long before any problems.

You've not proven causation, just correlation.

Maybe the decline in volunteers is why FRV had to step-in with a lot of suburban stations?

I guarantee, none of the 20 recruits I started training with had any idea what/who the UFU was. I don't think any of them even knew about the UFU/FRV/CFA spat. In two months, nobody ever talked about it

 

[Gralin]

I did Gralin, perhaps you didn't ? The fall in numbers started well before then. Saint was arguing the fall was due to Covid, which may be partly true, BUT the stats show the decline started years earlier. Read my post again!!

your article agreed with the poster you were trying to refute

 

[Sttew]

your article agreed with the poster you were trying to refute

What, that there were volunteer fire fighter record numbers in 2020 before Covid? Garbage. It says, "In the Country Fire Authority's annual report, released today (Dec 2020), the volunteer firefighting force numbered 30,977, down from 34,483 the year before." Yet in 2010 there were 40,000 VFF, and in 2016 there were 35,000 volunteer firefighters. Explain where the article supports the argument that pre Covid 2020 there were record number of voluntary fire fighters?

 

[Gralin]

What, that there were volunteer fire fighter record numbers in 2020 before Covid? Garbage. It says, "In the Country Fire Authority's annual report, released today (Dec 2020), the volunteer firefighting force numbered 30,977, down from 34,483 the year before." Yet in 2010 there were 40,000 VFF, and in 2016 there were 35,000 volunteer firefighters. Explain where the article supports the argument that pre Covid there were record number of voluntary fire fighters?

So you say numbers have been declining steadily since 2010 right?

Then you say in 2016 there were 35k CFA members

Then you link an article that says in 2019 there was 34.4k firefighters

which doesn't seem like a big decline from 2016

and another poster said that a bunch of people couldn't train in 2020 and that 2020 numbers were down because of it

and you're like no its been declining for a decade see this article which says that in 2020 numbers were down because people couldn't train and that in 2019 numbers were basically the same as 2016


so yeah like I said, your article doesn't agree with your position on CFA membership declining because UFU

 

[Sttew]

So you say numbers have been declining steadily since 2010 right?

Then you say in 2016 there were 35k CFA members

Then you link an article that says in 2019 there was 34.4k firefighters

which doesn't seem like a big decline from 2016

and another poster said that a bunch of people couldn't train in 2020 and that 2020 numbers were down because of it

and you're like no its been declining for a decade see this article which says that in 2020 numbers were down because people couldn't train and that in 2019 numbers were basically the same as 2016


so yeah like I said, your article doesn't agree with your position on CFA membership declining because UFU

Gralin, I reckon you need a break. You're just arguing for the sake. Maybe its a ploy to distract from the real issue, I don't know.

So let me be clear.

The poster claimed the following:

1. CFA new Volunteers were at an all-time high pre-COVID - False, as there were 40,000 in 2010
2. It was because of COVID that volunteers couldn't complete training and numbers declined - I concede that may have been an issue, but it certainly was not the case that the decline in numbers since 2010 was solely due to Covid.

Now, do yourself a favour and let this one go. I don't know how anyone can argue that the UFU has not had the CFA in its sights for the best part of a decade

 

[Gralin]

Gralin, I reckon you need a break. You're just arguing for the sake. Maybe its a ploy to distract from the real issue, I don't know.

So let me be clear.

The poster claimed the following:

1. CFA new Volunteers were at an all-time high pre-COVID - False, as there were 40,000 in 2010
2. It was because of COVID that volunteers couldn't complete training and numbers declined - I concede that may have been an issue, but it certainly was not the case that the decline in numbers since 2010 was solely due to Covid.

Now, do yourself a favour and let this one go. I don't know how anyone can argue that the UFU has not had the CFA in its sights for the best part of a decade

perhaps the bolded word is confusing you

new doesn't mean all

so saying they have less total volunteers to 12 years ago has nothing to do with how many tried to sign up in 2020 but were thwarted by covid

 

[Kwality]

I'm OK with that as long as it's linked to the value of the property. Ie people in Toorak pay more than Werribee. Also, investment properties need to be charged more.

Effectively a State version of Council rates ? No consideration of the ability to pay, one size fits all.

If we want government at all levels to keep doing things for people, it has to be funded somehow .... more usually by someone else

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

Effectively a State version of Council rates ? No consideration of the ability to pay, one size fits all.

If we want government at all levels to keep doing things for people, it has to be funded somehow .... more usually by someone else

What?

Surely if you live in a palace in Toorak you can afford to pay and should pay more land tax than someone who owns a flat in Frankston?

That seems pretty fair for all concerned.

 

[Kwality]

What?

Surely if you live in a palace in Toorak you can afford to pay and should pay more land tax than someone who owns a flat in Frankston?

That seems pretty fair for all concerned.

Hence my reference to the Council rates.

 

[Kwality]

Your post shows the decline starting from 2010, long before any problems.

You've not proven causation, just correlation.

Maybe the decline in volunteers is why FRV had to step-in with a lot of suburban stations?

I guarantee, none of the 20 recruits I started training with had any idea what/who the UFU was. I don't think any of them even knew about the UFU/FRV/CFA spat. In two months, nobody ever talked about it

Jane Garrett took up Emergency Services in 2014.

 

[Navyblues09]

CFA currently seems more worried about the UFU doing their usual CFA members aren't firefighters schtick

Statement from CEO and Chief Officer

You may have seen the campaign launched yesterday by the United Firefighters Union (UFU) outlining the skills and attributes of career firefighters and inviting the community to check if they are in a Fire Rescue Victoria (FRV) zone.

news.cfa.vic.gov.au

So you complain about off topic posting then post new stories from September last year and say that’s the current issue?

But it was interesting that on that ad, FRV came out and said they didn’t support it and it wasn’t official. Yet they provided all the gear and equipment and locations and allowed the FRV name to be used!

 

[Navyblues09]

I saw that statement from the government. Not sure whether I believe it. The new company owned by Hamilton is already registered. Regardless, it's now out in the open, and the government can and should say it will not happen, unless of course the agenda is to cede management of FRV in the UFU.

The UFU already run FRV, it was the entire point of the reform, to bypass all the checks and balances that CFA and MFB had and hand full control to Peter Marshall.

 

[Navyblues09]

I am really in the dark as to why the UFU would want to marginalise volunteer fire fighters. They are the backbone of fire fighting in rural Victoria. Since the UFU shitfight started, the total number of volunteer fire fighters in Victoria has fallen, to the point that some farmers are buying their own ex CFA fire trucks to ensure fires on their properties can be fought. This, in itself is creating problems because the trucks need to be accredited by the government. Lucky we did not have any big outbreaks this summer.

Because the UFU wish there were no volunteers in Victoria and want a fully paid station in ever town. Every new station is more money for them and given their advertising blitz, definitely not short of a few dollars.

The UFU in Victoria also oppose the use of retained firefighters, a model used in NSW to great success. Basically they have firefighters on call and they get paid for it, but unlike volunteers there is a greater level of training and requirements to actually respond.

I will also add FRV have no capacity to respond to bushfires in rural Victoria as the UFUs reform removed that capability that the CFA career firefighters had before reform.

 

[Navyblues09]

I don't think it should happen and saying they won't let it happen would be good but its unlikely that they will respond to a Murdoch hit piece like you want them to

Because the only place reporting this is News Corp and its being reported in their normal Unions/Labor bad style so its hard to know how much substance there is to the allegations

Actually the firefighter registration board is a part of the government’s reform package so it will happen and the government committed to making it happen.

 

[Navyblues09]

So you say numbers have been declining steadily since 2010 right?

Then you say in 2016 there were 35k CFA members

Then you link an article that says in 2019 there was 34.4k firefighters

which doesn't seem like a big decline from 2016

and another poster said that a bunch of people couldn't train in 2020 and that 2020 numbers were down because of it

and you're like no its been declining for a decade see this article which says that in 2020 numbers were down because people couldn't train and that in 2019 numbers were basically the same as 2016


so yeah like I said, your article doesn't agree with your position on CFA membership declining because UFU

That’s because you’re merging 2 completely seperate issues into one.

Saint is talking about new recruit training which was impacted by Covid. The members not being accredited are due to dropping off the system, the essential training that was not completed that the chief was talking about had always been allowed throughout Covid.

 

[Navyblues09]

Your post shows the decline starting from 2010, long before any problems.

You've not proven causation, just correlation.

Maybe the decline in volunteers is why FRV had to step-in with a lot of suburban stations?

I guarantee, none of the 20 recruits I started training with had any idea what/who the UFU was. I don't think any of them even knew about the UFU/FRV/CFA spat. In two months, nobody ever talked about it

You do realise that since reform there is the exact same number of career fire stations in Victoria? FRV had absolutely nothing to do with whether volunteers could respond, those areas were already covered by career firefighters in the CFA. The only reform that occurred was changing the badge and giving the UFU full control whilst removing our rural abilities. Same firefighters, same urban trucks.

 

[adogsfan5]

 

[Crankyhawk]

Effectively a State version of Council rates ? No consideration of the ability to pay, one size fits all.

If we want government at all levels to keep doing things for people, it has to be funded somehow .... more usually by someone else

Council rates are also one size fits all.
Attempts to increase progressive income tax get called class warfare.
Wealth tax on hyper rich - same

Edit and I’m happy to hit investment properties and empty houses. If it costs too much owners can generally sell (consider discount if house is not livable)

 

[pazza]

Gralin, I reckon you need a break. You're just arguing for the sake. Maybe its a ploy to distract from the real issue, I don't know.

So let me be clear.

The poster claimed the following:

1. CFA new Volunteers were at an all-time high pre-COVID - False, as there were 40,000 in 2010
2. It was because of COVID that volunteers couldn't complete training and numbers declined - I concede that may have been an issue, but it certainly was not the case that the decline in numbers since 2010 was solely due to Covid.

Now, do yourself a favour and let this one go. I don't know how anyone can argue that the UFU has not had the CFA in its sights for the best part of a decade

As an ex-CFA firefighter but with a long family involvement (Dad 45 years and still going for example) I am not surprised at the decline.

But it's not just the UFU stuff driving it.

It's symptomatic of the current generation. As the older ones start to retire, there isn't a new group coming through in as bigger numbers.

 

[Gralin]

So you complain about off topic posting then post new stories from September last year and say that’s the current issue?

But it was interesting that on that ad, FRV came out and said they didn’t support it and it wasn’t official. Yet they provided all the gear and equipment and locations and allowed the FRV name to be used!

Yeah i missed the date on it, my bad

 

[Kwality]

Council rates are also one size fits all.
Attempts to increase progressive income tax get called class warfare.
Wealth tax on hyper rich - same

Edit and I’m happy to hit investment properties and empty houses. If it costs too much owners can generally sell (consider discount if house is not livable)

So we agree this tax change is more of the Council rates model but for the State Government. In NSW the plan is to get rid of stamp duty on property sales .

Class warfare is a term rolled out conveniently when people want someone else to carry more of the tax burden.

Its easy to call for tax increases on someone else, but drafting the changes is a minefield - I often refer to our Tax Act at 1920 as amended & believe its not fit for purpose 100 years on.

Its fanciful to think any of short term Federal Governments over the past 15 years are stable enough to address tax reform.

That said, if we want government to do more the money must come from somewhere.

 

[Crankyhawk]

So we agree this tax change is more of the Council rates model but for the State Government. In NSW the plan is to get rid of stamp duty on property sales .

Class warfare is a term rolled out conveniently when people want someone else to carry more of the tax burden.

Its easy to call for tax increases on someone else, but drafting the changes is a minefield - I often refer to our Tax Act at 1920 as amended & believe its not fit for purpose 100 years on.

Its fanciful to think any of short term Federal Governments over the past 15 years are stable enough to address tax reform.

That said, if we want government to do more the money must come from somewhere.

So what’s your proposal then? Or you just gonna complain about any suggestions?