Hypothetically - Would you swap these yesteryear premierships to be in Richmond's position now? (Carl, Coll, Ess & Melb)

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Bunk Moreland

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Quick question, can I ask how old you are?
This is actually the relevant response.

It’s a stupid, but moreover, very naive question.

It’s about more than premierships. It always has been.

Football is an emotional pursuit. I’ve had happier and more fulfilling days at the footy than the 2000 grand final. Plenty of them.

It’s about appreciating the journey. If you don’t get that then you don’t get footy.
 

RUNVS

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Just admit it.

You are desperate for external validation after 30 years of failure.

We all get it.

Over....

And over.......

And OVER..................
A lot of Richmond fans are. They feel like we don't praise them as much as we did Geelong, Hawthorn and Brisbane.

They desperately want people on this forum to tell them how great they are, almost like an 8 year old who wants the adults around them to tell them what an amazing painter they are. Without the praise they feel hollow.
 

Stabby McGee

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I really expected it to be a mite sooner before someone reacted to something of a mischievious post.

I will say, though, that you do demonstrate more or less what I was saying anyway. You're absolutely right that all of that is pretty significant, and the idea of losing players in WW2 is awful. You're aware of your club's history, you're damn thumping proud of it, and you'd not exchange it for anything.
If you were just busting balls then all is good. Banter in the outer is some of the best parts of the game. But the not paying attention bit was out of line. We all have supporters that are ... well ... aren’t, but most of us are rusted on and we know our history and are very proud of it.
 

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Roddy

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The tiges at the moment are having one of those elusive times when the planets have aligned for them and they're experiencing a period of success. When those same planets move back out of alignment, they will shrink back to relative obscurity for years, possibly decades. Just like Adelaide in the late 90s, North in the mid-late 90s, Brisbane in the early 2000s, Geelong 07-11.......
 

Masotiger

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Quick question, can I ask how old you are?
Some interesting observations. Some get the premise of the hypothetical, others are too consumed with Richmond supporters.

I'm 60 this year. In my lifetime Richmond has won 8 premierships. The 1st 2 ('67 & '69) I was too young to appreciate the significance of the achievement. Had to laugh at one Carlton poster who reckons someone aged 2 in 1995 would appreciate the 1995 flag:tearsofjoy:. The 3 decade drought was hard to endure, but like many posters have commented, following a club is a point of reference with family, fellow supporters, etc. which is not defined by premiership success.

The whole premise of the hypothetical is not to gloat about Richmond's recent successes. I can do that with my mates or do that on the Richmond board. It's about the value of the knowledge of having won x amount of flags in a bygone era compared to the value of your club being in (dare I say it) Richmond's position right now.

Personally, if Richmond was still meandering in mediocrity I would have no hesitation in swapping our 1st 6 flags for the 3 we just won and the position of strength it has put us in. To me, premierships won before my being are nice, but they're about as relevant as premierships the Tigers win when I'm pushing up daisies.
 

Freomaniac

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Some interesting observations. Some get the premise of the hypothetical, others are too consumed with Richmond supporters.

I'm 60 this year. In my lifetime Richmond has won 8 premierships. The 1st 2 ('67 & '69) I was too young to appreciate the significance of the achievement. Had to laugh at one Carlton poster who reckons someone aged 2 in 1995 would appreciate the 1995 flag:tearsofjoy:. The 3 decade drought was hard to endure, but like many posters have commented, following a club is a point of reference with family, fellow supporters, etc. which is not defined by premiership success.

The whole premise of the hypothetical is not to gloat about Richmond's recent successes. I can do that with my mates or do that on the Richmond board. It's about the value of the knowledge of having won x amount of flags in a bygone era compared to the value of your club being in (dare I say it) Richmond's position right now.

Personally, if Richmond was still meandering in mediocrity I would have no hesitation in swapping our 1st 6 flags for the 3 we just won and the position of strength it has put us in. To me, premierships won before my being are nice, but they're about as relevant as premierships the Tigers win when I'm pushing up daisies.
you would trade your 1st 6 flags of 1920, 1921, 1932, 1934, 1943 and 1967 for your 2017, 2019 and 2020 flags?
 

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Masotiger

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you would trade your 1st 6 flags of 1920, 1921, 1932, 1934, 1943 and 1967 for your 2017, 2019 and 2020 flags?
If we were meandering in mediocrity, yes. I just said that.

It's a nice thought knowing Richmond won those flags back then, but there's not much of a warm inner glow if it's been ages since our last and looking like ages before our next. Without wanting to be disrespectful to Melbourne supporters in this hypothetical for example, any of them that would keep the status of 12 premierships instead of 9 which would include 2017, 2019, and 2020 are deluding themselves.
 

JackFlash

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I would swap any of our Premierships for anything in the 1970s, 80s or 90s. It still irks me that we lost in 89, 92, 94 and 95 when REAL football was played. I'm happy the Cats won 3 flags, but the footy of the past 10 years is a shell of what it once was. They are athletes, not footballers. Richmond of 2021 wouldn't beat Fitzroy of 1996! Hawthorn of the 89s would be undefeated in the 20s. Modern-day flags don't have any of the same feeling or meaning as pre 2000. The AFL staggered on until approximately 2010, but who bloody knows what game it is they're playing this year!
 

Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods

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If we were meandering in mediocrity, yes. I just said that.

It's a nice thought knowing Richmond won those flags back then, but there's not much of a warm inner glow if it's been ages since our last and looking like ages before our next. Without wanting to be disrespectful to Melbourne supporters in this hypothetical for example, any of them that would keep the status of 12 premierships instead of 9 which would include 2017, 2019, and 2020 are deluding themselves.
So, in 2016, you would have given up 6 flags worth of history to be exactly where you currently are now, but with those 6 historical flags still in tact?
I can't speak for other clubs, but can you not see how Carlton supporters are questioning the sanity of this? We believe we are potentially in a "Richmond 2016" type window if things go right over the next few years. Why would anyone trade that? Even if it doesn't quite pan out.
 

Masotiger

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So, in 2016, you would have given up 6 flags worth of history to be exactly where you currently are now, but with those 6 historical flags still in tact?
I can't speak for other clubs, but can you not see how Carlton supporters are questioning the sanity of this? We believe we are potentially in a "Richmond 2016" type window if things go right over the next few years. Why would anyone trade that? Even if it doesn't quite pan out.
I get your drift, but I think you're dreaming.

Pre-2016 Richmond played finals 3 years in a row. In both 2013 and 2015 Richmond won 15 H&A games and finished 5th. Yes we lost both Elimination Finals, but you cannot possibly compare Carlton of 2020 with Richmond of 2016. Carlton of 2020 are nowhere near the development Richmond had undertaken up to 2016, which turned out to be the aberration. Carlton's previous 3 seasons have seen them finish 16th, 18th, and 16th.

To answer your question, no, in 2016 I would not give up a part of our history because I felt we were still on track for success.

If I were Carlton, I'd be hoping to start playing finals asap, and hope to become regular finalist otherwise I'd be arranging a meeting with Faust.
 

OnceWeWereKings

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Some interesting observations. Some get the premise of the hypothetical, others are too consumed with Richmond supporters.

I'm 60 this year. In my lifetime Richmond has won 8 premierships. The 1st 2 ('67 & '69) I was too young to appreciate the significance of the achievement. Had to laugh at one Carlton poster who reckons someone aged 2 in 1995 would appreciate the 1995 flag:tearsofjoy:. The 3 decade drought was hard to endure, but like many posters have commented, following a club is a point of reference with family, fellow supporters, etc. which is not defined by premiership success.

The whole premise of the hypothetical is not to gloat about Richmond's recent successes. I can do that with my mates or do that on the Richmond board. It's about the value of the knowledge of having won x amount of flags in a bygone era compared to the value of your club being in (dare I say it) Richmond's position right now.

Personally, if Richmond was still meandering in mediocrity I would have no hesitation in swapping our 1st 6 flags for the 3 we just won and the position of strength it has put us in. To me, premierships won before my being are nice, but they're about as relevant as premierships the Tigers win when I'm pushing up daisies.
I've been lucky enough to see / remember 5 Carlton premierships.

Was born in '68 so was too young to remember the '68,'70 & '72. I do however remember watching the '79 on television, was lucky enough to attend '81 & '82. Was old enough to celebrate the '87 with way too many drinks, and watched the '95 on TV as I was interstate at the time.

Each hold a special place as they occurred at different times in my life.
If I was to pick a favorite it would probably be '95 as I was old enough & mature enough to appreciate it a little more than the others. It was also a long 8 years since our last !!!

I wouldn't trade any of them, each hold a special place in my heart. I wouldn't change any that occurred before these as they would mean the same to those older than myself.

What I would say is, if we are lucky enough to win another before my time is up, for me, it will be the most special of them all.
That's because I grew up with an expectation that you just won premierships, its what Carlton did.

History has proven that was at the very least naïve, if not, outright ignorant.

My adult life has coincided with the worst period in Carlton's history. I was a young man of 27 when we won our last. I'm 53 now. A lot has changed in that time, but not the love for my footy team.

It's why you buy your membership, it's why you go whenever you can, it's why you yell at the telly when you can't. it's why you can't wait for each new season to begin. It's because each new season brings fresh hope that they may just win another, however a faint hope that may be.

Each year I hope that I get to share that next Carlton win with my Carlton supporting son.

He hasn't been as lucky as I was in his first 23 years, but that's what's going to make the next one so special.

So no, I wouldn't swap a thing, because to do so changes everything, it takes away the journey, it takes away my personal experiences.

And if you don't take the journey, does it really hold any value?
 
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Freomaniac

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I would swap any of our Premierships for anything in the 1970s, 80s or 90s. It still irks me that we lost in 89, 92, 94 and 95 when REAL football was played. I'm happy the Cats won 3 flags, but the footy of the past 10 years is a shell of what it once was. They are athletes, not footballers. Richmond of 2021 wouldn't beat Fitzroy of 1996! Hawthorn of the 89s would be undefeated in the 20s. Modern-day flags don't have any of the same feeling or meaning as pre 2000. The AFL staggered on until approximately 2010, but who bloody knows what game it is they're playing this year!
You still blame ross lyon for the current shape of the AFL dont you? lol
 

JackFlash

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You still blame ross lyon for the current shape of the AFL dont you? lol
He didn't help, but it's not entirely his fault. The rot set in with the awful Swans V Eagles Grand Finals of 05/06. It took a few years on lifeline before AFL was switched off completely. Modern fans will argue of course because they haven't really seen real football, Fitzroy 1996 would beat Tigers 2021 by 10 goals!
 

Elton Johns Wig

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Several things.

Your math is off. Carlton won their last flag in 1995; someone could be as young as 2 at the time could remember something of it, if not be able to remember it as an adult does. I am 32, and I remember the day, some of the match.

Secondly, you miss the point of following a team. The reason 2017 was so sweet for you and yours is precisely because of how far back you had to climb to get there, the mistakes you made on the way, the sense that finally - belatedly - you were onto something. We don't go for a club purely because of success; we support a club because our family did, because we love the game and the club itself. We acquaint ourselves with its history, with the great players and the successes and failures of the past, and we acknowledge that as ours.

If we were to accept your scenario, it would change how that past looked, and uproot some of the reason why Carlton is my team. History is precious.

Absolutely not.
I wouldn't even trade Richmond's 1983-2016 for Carlton, Hawthorn's or Essendons.

Without those horrid years, 2017 wouldn't be as joyful and passionate.

So premierships or not, I think each clubs history is special to their supporters and would make the eventual climb atop Mount Everest all that much sweeter.

However if I was a Saints supporter, I wouldn't look to success as a way of justifying my loyalty and support of the club. Id look at the family connection, memories made with nan and pop, m and dad.

Success isn't everything, but you do need success at some point to keep footy enjoyable. It's meant to help us escape from our shitty lives, if it is always shitty in itself, then whats the point? Some success is essential.
It also helps how success for each club is defined a little differently. St Kilda haven't the premierships, but they've had all time champions of the game come through their team. They've Robert Harvey, one of the most underestimated players when talking of the AFL era greats. They've prized individual achievements, because they've had no choice really.

Then, you've got Collingwood, who value their 'them against us, up to and including fate' thing. They prize their precious victimhood to their chests, whilst also valuing the fact that they're always thereabouts. Making grand finals is an achievement for them, because it has been so difficult historically even to make them for some clubs. You've got North and their 'shinboner spirit'; the soul of the underdog. You've got the chip on the shoulder of WC and Sydney and Port Adelaide, all three clubs who for different reasons believe themselves exceptional, better and different. You've got the near completely unearned arrogance of Melbourne supporters, who swing between premierships and individual achievements when they're paying attention.

Obviously, Carlton's no exception when it comes to unearned arrogance, at least in a modern context. But we've never really gone over to the individual achievement bandwagon, not really. Too many fans and too much conditioning to accept nothing but premierships.

Each of us have our own personal reasons why we support the teams we do, and an awful lot of it is bound up in family. Our histories are important to us, because of that, no matter how we determine success.
These 3 posts will do me.

Sum it up beautifully.

This place can get a little heated at times, and it's artificial in a way. Exaggerated in here. I reckon 99% of us could meet other clubs posters from here in a pub and have a good natured ding dong discussion about clubs, players, certain matches. None of the inflated, manufactured aggro we get here.

I'm 50, I've seen some highs and some lows. But what a ride!! No way I'm swapping with anyone. And I'd be disappointed if anyone would swap. Quite frankly it's a ridiculous suggestion.

The journey is the reward, and mines not finished yet!!

#gotiges
 

Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods

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I felt we were still on track for success.
And we feel we are on track for success.
Despite the differences in finishes for the surrounding years, the feeling is still not dissimilar.
Despite potentially being on the cusp around 2010-2012, panicking, reaching for a messiah, and then going through a ground up rebuild, I wouldn't pass up on what looks like coming over the next 5 or so years.
 

Freomaniac

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He didn't help, but it's not entirely his fault. The rot set in with the awful Swans V Eagles Grand Finals of 05/06. It took a few years on lifeline before AFL was switched off completely. Modern fans will argue of course because they haven't really seen real football, Fitzroy 1996 would beat Tigers 2021 by 10 goals!
I won't deny Ross Lyon footy turned some casuals away.

Those 2 grand finals in 2005 and 2006 in my view as a neutral were good to watch mainly because they were close and in a small part in my view, 2 non Vic teams were in it.

Fitzroy of 1996 would lose to Richmonds 2020 side by 10 goals in my view. Keep in mind these factors....


- Different players

- Different facilities

- Different training methods

They did a poll a couple of years ago on a match between the 1988-89 hawks vs the 2012-3 demon's
 

JackFlash

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I won't deny Ross Lyon footy turned some casuals away.

Those 2 grand finals in 2005 and 2006 in my view as a neutral were good to watch mainly because they were close and in a small part in my view, 2 non Vic teams were in it.

Fitzroy of 1996 would lose to Richmonds 2020 side by 10 goals in my view. Keep in mind these factors....


- Different players

- Different facilities

- Different training methods

They did a poll a couple of years ago on a match between the 1988-89 hawks vs the 2012-3 demon's
Given the same training and fitness program, the Lions of 96 would cream the Tigers....
 

Tzatziki_Man

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Fitzroy of 1996 would lose to Richmonds 2020 side by 10 goals in my view. Keep in mind these factors....


- Different players

- Different facilities

- Different training methods

They did a poll a couple of years ago on a match between the 1988-89 hawks vs the 2012-3 demon's
If the tigers of 96' can beat the roys of 96' by 150 points .

Then the tigers of 2020 would kick 20 goals by quarter time and dusty would be in the ice baths halfway through the 2nd
 

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