Analysis If Dustin Martin wins a 4th Norm Smith medal and premiership will he be regarded as the greatest player of all time?

[Cdog71]

Of course he blames himself that’s his biggest asset his a perfectionist if he got 30 and 5 goals but missed one late and we lost he would also blame himself.
I have stated earlier if he was durable he would be in the conversation as best ever but that’s not the case.
Dusty played 7 seasons in a row 22games+ didn’t get injured
Fyfe played 22 games once in 2013 but still missed 3 games with injury.
Fyfe has never had an injury free home and away season yet still has individual accolades that very few have.
If Fyfe played as many games as dusty he would be 6 votes shy of gazjr record career Brownlow votes tally playing 80 games less.

Sorry but I think he’s a 6”4 kick chaser and only a reasonable mark for his size.
We’ll done on the Brownlow’s, probably thought of as the prototype midfielder for a while because of the wingspan but for a guy who was taller than Goodes, same height as Jack Riewoldt he’s not that versatile.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Your clutching at straws if your blaming Fyfe for freos loss in the grandfinal.
So can you confirm to me that your opinion is:
It wasn’t Ross lyons game plan of bombing it in giving Bryan lake a norm smith.
It wasn’t the senior playing group and their onfield leadership.
It wasn’t the 6 fwds whose job it is to kick goals.
It was the second youngest guy in the 22 who was playing midfield missed a couple goals because he’s no good.
Not out of exhaustion because he was in the midfield where he complied:
28d (number 1 out of 44 players)
18 contested possessions( 1 of 44)
6 tackles (top 10)Dusty 5 tackles total for 3 grand finals.
5 clearances (3 of 44)
2 contested marks (3 of 44)

I think he will be defined by his 2 MVP 2 brownlows, the best Brownlow votes per a game average in the last 50 years and carrying the team on his back from the age of 22.

Kicking is half of football Ronnie. Always has been, always will be. If it wasn’t for that, Fyfe and Dangerfield probably have had better careers than Dusty, including multiple more flags between them. But Dusty has the golden boot under pressure that you cannot buy, so he has left the other two for dead. If Fyfe was a damaging kick he would be a hell of a player, like, GOAT level good. But sadly he isn’t, so he isn’t.

You can see the damage difference in their following stats:

Goals + Goal Assist average career:

Fyfe 1.4 per match v Dusty 1.9 per match.

Finals 1.0 per match v 2.8 per match

Score Involvements.

Fyfe is returning 7.2-7.9 range in his best seasons, which is very good. v Dusty 2 seasons right out of Fyfe’s range 8.6 and 9.0

Finals we cannot compare properly as we only have 2015 onwards where they were recorded. In Fyfe’s two finals in 2015 he got a miserable 2 and 3 score involvements. In Dusty’s finals from 2015 onwards he got 2, 12, 13, 9, 10, 7, 10, 9, 8, 5, 11, 8, 11, 4. Bolded are the losing finals. In his 10 winning finals he averages over 10 score involvements which is completely outrageous.Petracca is about the only player I know of within a bull’s roar of that.


Remember you don’t have to be an outside player to get a score involvement, it is whoever touches the ball when it ends up as a score.

Kick Quantity

In the years where Fyfe has his most kicks he is averaging in the 13-15 range. v Dusty in his stronger years is 15-20 range.

Metres Gained

350 Fyfe in good years v 450 Dusty in good years.


Fyfe is a great ball contester, both on the ground and in the air and has very strong tackle numbers as you have pointed out. He is a cut above Dusty in those areas even I think if Dusty’s sole role was to contest inside ball. But where Fyfe, Dangerfield, and Cripps cannot get near Dusty is for damage, especially in the biggest games. And they are all actually damaging players with their contest wins, just nowhere near as damaging as Dusty. Remember also we were shown stats earlier in this thread that revealed Dusty is head and shoulders the highest 1 on 1 percentage contest winner in the last decade, winning over 50% of his 1 v 1’s where the second best is Hawkins at around 40%.

 

[Fadge]

Remember also we were shown stats earlier in this thread that revealed Dusty is head and shoulders the highest 1 on 1 percentage contest winner in the last decade, winning over 50% of his 1 v 1’s where the second best is Hawkins at around 40%.

This has been mentioned about 60 times in this thread, but it always references percentages.

What are the raw numbers?

I mean, is 40% of 250 better than 50% of 50?

And how do we compare a key forward who has an opponent whose primary job is to stop them, with a mid/forward who will have a more attacking opponent?

 

[Piggy Smalls]

It was 2 out on the full and a point and equal game high possession numbers
Won the hit outs 55-27
Lost clearances 42-34 and Fyfe got 5.
He did blame himself unfortunately

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/shattered-fremantle-midfielder-nat-fyfe-blames-himself-for-dockers-loss/news-story/0b3989fabf106101394f22bf04f939ca

Fyfe was a great midfielder/accumulator but probably injuries held him back.
Surprised he’s only played 209 games

Fyfe an accumulator? Get in the bin mate, you’ve clearly got NFI

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

Accumulator has become the in-vogue way of saying "this player is statistically better than a player I like".

So on that basis, I agree. Fyfe has been a great accumulator the last decade.

 

[My Tilly]

Fyfe an accumulator? Get in the bin mate, you’ve clearly got NFI

Averages 14 contested possessions per game. Still one of the highest ratios of all time.

Of all the great midfielders who were expected to go forward in latter years and dominate, Nat Fyfe would be my first choice. If he can get his body right this year (big ask), expect a very big finish to his career where we see upwards of 40 goals per season.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

This has been mentioned about 60 times in this thread, but it always references percentages.

What are the raw numbers?

I mean, is 40% of 250 better than 50% of 50?

And how do we compare a key forward who has an opponent whose primary job is to stop them, with a mid/forward who will have a more attacking opponent?

Lol you don’t get it. There is a player here with a laser boot who can be positioned in the midfield or forward to advantage who wins contests at a higher rate than any other player in the comp, and by miles. He won 22 contested possessions mainly in the midfield in a Grand Final where his team was underdog, and also slid forward to do untold damage. Part of what makes him so damaging is opposition teams pull their hair out trying to match up on him as he can play different roles in different ways to an extremely high standard. Grand Final opponents had loads of warning and in 3 attempts at trying to counter him could find no answer, not to mention sundry other finals victims. More one dimensional players are more easily nullified whether forward or in the midfield. That is the whole thing about Dustin Martin. You cannot just put a conventional key defender or midfield tagger or half back on him, he will just take them to places they don’t want to be and take them apart one on one.

It is amazing you can’t get your head around it just because he doesn’t always play one role to allow you to easily compare him to other players. If it was easy for even an elite player to do, someone else would have done it by now. You are trying vainly to downgrade Dusty because he doesn’t play Hawkin’s role better than Hawkins, Ablett’s role better than Ablett, etc etc. But none of them could play Dusty’s role to the effect he does, or they would have been deployed that way throughout their careers. And it is so clear exactly who playing exactly what role has been more damaging when it has mattered most.

Stevie Wonder is less blind than you Fadge.

Also Fadge, don’t look at the poll trend. Almost 1/3rd of people in the poll now not prepared to say Dusty won’t be the GOAT in the event of yet another flag and Normy. You are losing the thread mate, that started off at under 1/5th.

 

[JackOutback]

Lol you don’t get it. There is a player here with a laser boot who can be positioned in the midfield or forward to advantage who wins contests at a higher rate than any other player in the comp, and by miles. He won 22 contested possessions mainly in the midfield in a Grand Final where his team was underdog, and also slid forward to do untold damage. Part of what makes him so damaging is opposition teams pull their hair out trying to match up on him as he can play different roles in different ways to an extremely high standard. Grand Final opponents had loads of warning and in 3 attempts at trying to counter him could find no answer, not to mention sundry other finals victims. More one dimensional players are more easily nullified whether forward or in the midfield. That is the whole thing about Dustin Martin. You cannot just put a conventional key defender or midfield tagger or half back on him, he will just take them to places they don’t want to be and take them apart one on one.

It is amazing you can’t get your head around it just because he doesn’t always play one role to allow you to easily compare him to other players. If it was easy for even an elite player to do, someone else would have done it by now. You are trying vainly to downgrade Dusty because he doesn’t play Hawkin’s role better than Hawkins, Ablett’s role better than Ablett, etc etc. But none of them could play Dusty’s role to the effect he does, or they would have been deployed that way throughout their careers. And it is so clear exactly who playing exactly what role has been more damaging when it has mattered most.

Stevie Wonder is less blind than you Fadge.

Also Fadge, don’t look at the poll trend. Almost 1/3rd of people in the poll now not prepared to say Dusty won’t be the GOAT int he event of yet another flag and Normy. You are losing the thread mate, that started off at under 1/5th.

Oh, people get it. Just check the poll results.

 

[Trahanas22]

Your clutching at straws if your blaming Fyfe for freos loss in the grandfinal.
So can you confirm to me that your opinion is:
It wasn’t Ross lyons game plan of bombing it in giving Bryan lake a norm smith.
It wasn’t the senior playing group and their onfield leadership.
It wasn’t the 6 fwds whose job it is to kick goals.
It was the second youngest guy in the 22 who was playing midfield missed a couple goals because he’s no good.
Not out of exhaustion because he was in the midfield where he complied:
28d (number 1 out of 44 players)
18 contested possessions( 1 of 44)
6 tackles (top 10)Dusty 5 tackles total for 3 grand finals.
5 clearances (3 of 44)
2 contested marks (3 of 44)

I think he will be defined by his 2 MVP 2 brownlows, the best Brownlow votes per a game average in the last 50 years and carrying the team on his back from the age of 22.

I am quoting again the article you probably didn’t read, about Fyfe wanting to quit after the 2013 GF:

Fyfe reveals he considered retirement

“Sitting through the Hawks' medal presentation post-match, Fyfe's mind wandered.

"What am I going to have to do to get back here?" he reflected.

"Will it be a decade? How many players am I going to play with before I step back out on the MCG on Grand Final day? Will it be in a purple jumper?

"You go from gut-wrenchingly devastated and not wanting to be part of a football team ever again and throwing it all away, to, OK, systematically, 'how can I learn from that, improve, increase my chances and go one step better?'.”

You see mate, unlike me and you, Fyfe has quite good insight about what is really important for a high calibre player. In fact, he was quite prophetic about how his footy career was going to pan out. He was justified to feel depressed and disillusioned indeed. Because what he dreadfully contemplated happening actually turned out to be what happened for real!

So, instead of making assumptions about what defines him, what don’t you just read it straight from the horse’s mouth? It’s quite clear.

I am not saying that Fremantle’s GF defeat was only Fyfe’s fault. Balantyne choked. Pavlich choked. But Nathan choked as well. All your teams’ pillars were not up to scratch. And I am repeating it again. Replace Fyfe with Martin, the best GF performer at least in the AFL era, Fremantle win the flag in 2013. Do you agree with this proposition or not?

Ross Lyon’s game plan was not the problem. It led two different teams to grand finals, after all. And it put you in a position to have a real chance of winning a premiership. Champion Data (already quoted but conveniently ignored by you) said the 2013 cup would have gone to the Dockers, if they achieved average (for 2013) goal accuracy in the GF. Average was good enough, but only a very special kind of player reserves his best for the most crucial game of them all. All the others can’t even reach average on key metrics. You are a typical Big Footy poster. You only mention the stats that suit your argument.

Fremantle’s real problem was that they didn’t have an X-factor player like Martin to turn things around for them with his individual brilliance. And conjure goals out of half chances, instead of missing easy shots directly in front of goals. Like Fyfe and company did again and again.

Simples...

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Oh, people get it. Just check the poll results.

I did. Almost 1/3rd of people not prepared to say he won’t be the GOAT in the event he achieves for a fourth time something he has ALREADY achieved 3 times. By definition then it would put him in the top 3 all-time and probably the top 2 unless the other two have exactly 1/3rd each not prepared to say they are not the GOAT. In other words, the poll likely places Dusty at fringe top one GOAT, bare minimum. Think it through JOB, you will figure it out.

Then come back and talk polls to me all you like.

 

[Fadge]

Lol you don’t get it. There is a player here with a laser boot who can be positioned in the midfield or forward to advantage who wins contests at a higher rate than any other player in the comp, and by miles. He won 22 contested possessions mainly in the midfield in a Grand Final where his team was underdog, and also slid forward to do untold damage. Part of what makes him so damaging is opposition teams pull their hair out trying to match up on him as he can play different roles in different ways to an extremely high standard. Grand Final opponents had loads of warning and in 3 attempts at trying to counter him could find no answer, not to mention sundry other finals victims. More one dimensional players are more easily nullified whether forward or in the midfield. That is the whole thing about Dustin Martin. You cannot just put a conventional key defender or midfield tagger or half back on him, he will just take them to places they don’t want to be and take them apart one on one.

It is amazing you can’t get your head around it just because he doesn’t always play one role to allow you to easily compare him to other players. If it was easy for even an elite player to do, someone else would have done it by now. You are trying vainly to downgrade Dusty because he doesn’t play Hawkin’s role better than Hawkins, Ablett’s role better than Ablett, etc etc. But none of them could play Dusty’s role to the effect he does, or they would have been deployed that way throughout their careers. And it is so clear exactly who playing exactly what role has been more damaging when it has mattered most.

Stevie Wonder is less blind than you Fadge.

Also Fadge, don’t look at the poll trend. Almost 1/3rd of people in the poll now not prepared to say Dusty won’t be the GOAT int he event of yet another flag and Normy. You are losing the thread mate, that started off at under 1/5th.

That's a roundabout way of saying 'raw numbers won't suit my narrative, so let's just stick with percentages'.

Gotcha.

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

Laser boot. Pml.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Laser boot. Pml.

Name a better kick in the AFL. Selwood and Danferfield weren't good kicks. Martin is a better kick than Oliver , Petracca, Miller, Neale ect and by a long way.

 

[blaisee]

Name a better kick in the AFL. Selwood and Danferfield weren't good kicks. Martin is a better kick than Oliver , Petracca, Miller, Neale ect and by a long way.

only peak trolls wont admit Dusty is a great kick

ignore

 

[PhatBoy]

Name a better kick in the AFL. Selwood and Danferfield weren't good kicks. Martin is a better kick than Oliver , Petracca, Miller, Neale ect and by a long way.

Is this a serious question

 

[Piggy Smalls]

I am quoting again the article you probably didn’t read, about Fyfe wanting to quit after the 2013 GF:

Fyfe reveals he considered retirement

“Sitting through the Hawks' medal presentation post-match, Fyfe's mind wandered.

"What am I going to have to do to get back here?" he reflected.

"Will it be a decade? How many players am I going to play with before I step back out on the MCG on Grand Final day? Will it be in a purple jumper?

"You go from gut-wrenchingly devastated and not wanting to be part of a football team ever again and throwing it all away, to, OK, systematically, 'how can I learn from that, improve, increase my chances and go one step better?'.”

You see mate, unlike me and you, Fyfe has quite good insight about what is really important for a high calibre player. In fact, he was quite prophetic about how his footy career was going to pan out. He was justified to feel depressed and disillusioned indeed. Because what he dreadfully contemplated happening actually turned out to be what happened for real!

So, instead of making assumptions about what defines him, what don’t you just read it straight from the horse’s mouth? It’s quite clear.

I am not saying that Fremantle’s GF defeat was only Fyfe’s fault. Balantyne choked. Pavlich choked. But Nathan choked as well. All your teams’ pillars were not up to scratch. And I am repeating it again. Replace Fyfe with Martin, the best GF performer at least in the AFL era, Fremantle win the flag in 2013. Do you agree with this proposition or not?

Ross Lyon’s game plan was not the problem. It led two different teams to grand finals, after all. And it put you in a position to have a real chance of winning a premiership. Champion Data (already quoted but conveniently ignored by you) said the 2013 cup would have gone to the Dockers, if they achieved average (for 2013) goal accuracy in the GF. Average was good enough, but only a very special kind of player reserves his best for the most crucial game of them all. All the others can’t even reach average on key metrics. You are a typical Big Footy poster. You only mention the stats that suit your argument.

Fremantle’s real problem was that they didn’t have an X-factor player like Martin to turn things around for them with his individual brilliance. And conjure goals out of half chances, instead of missing easy shots directly in front of goals. Like Fyfe and company did again and again.

Simples...

Ironically it will be exactly one decade later that Nat finally climbs the mountain

 

[RonnieRaven]

Name a better kick in the AFL. Selwood and Danferfield weren't good kicks. Martin is a better kick than Oliver , Petracca, Miller, Neale ect and by a long way.

Besides petracca and danger sometimes, the others you list are 100% inside the contest.
Dusty is not that player you’re comparing apples and oranges.
Dave Mundys kicking was never talked about neither Shaun Burgoyne but later in their careers they worked around the contest more like dusty and were lauded for their foot skills.
Craig Bradley Isaac smith amazing foot skills.
Libba Cripps Burke not so much.
Can you understand this?

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Is this a serious question

Yes troll it is. Name a better field kick.

 

[smasha]

Not many can understand how good Dusty’s kicking really is.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Besides petracca and danger sometimes, the others you list are 100% inside the contest.
Dusty is not that player you’re comparing apples and oranges.
Dave Mundys kicking was never talked about neither Shaun Burgoyne but later in their careers they worked around the contest more like dusty and were lauded for their foot skills.
Craig Bradley Isaac smith amazing foot skills.
Libba Cripps Burke not so much.
Can you understand this?

Dustin is an outside player is he ? Gmab. Name a better kick in the AFL.

 

[RonnieRaven]

Dustin is an outside player is he ? Gmab. Name a better kick in the AFL.

He works inside and outside but it would be a 50% split I’d guess.
Isaac smith is a better kick

 

[PhatBoy]

Yes troll it is. Name a better field kick.

Tom Stewart.
I bet there are more at Geelong, more at Richmond and more at every other club.

Seriously, do you morons have ANY other recourse when someone disagrees with you other than calling them a troll?

Everyone that doesn’t go for Richmond disagrees with the premise of this thread, and most of the premises within it.

Fvkken suck it up and deal with it you pack of losers.

 

[PhatBoy]

Not many can understand how good Dusty’s kicking really is.

No it seems only 1/18th of supporter bases manage to get a look behind the iron curtain that is pixels on a screen

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Tom Stewart.
I bet there are more at Geelong, more at Richmond and more at every other club.

Seriously, do you morons have ANY other recourse when someone disagrees with you other than calling them a troll?

Everyone that doesn’t go for Richmond disagrees with the premise of this thread, and most of the premises within it.

Fvkken suck it up and deal with it you pack of losers.

Tom Stewart a better kick than Martin? Lol, exciting post.

 

[PhatBoy]

Tom Stewart a better kick than Martin? Lol, exciting post.

Yes. He is. I didn’t realise kicking effectiveness was measured by medals, goals, and onfield geography.



Has the same amount of kicks per game, significantly less clangers, and virtually never wastes a possession. Mitch Duncan is another who turns the ball over significantly less. That’s just off the top of my head from my club.
There would be handfuls of players from every club, including yours.

The irony is that you’re so hooked on trying to convince the world of this frankly f***en stupid view about Martin that you accuse anyone disagreeing of being a troll:

The logic behind YOUR argument is literally exactly that of a troll!!!! “Because I said this it’s right and I’ll keep changing the parameters until everything works and I’ll just ignore anything I don’t really want to address.”


It’s f***ing pathetic and even more so coming from a couple of posters I actually at one point thought had a reasonable amount of sensibility.

Blaisee - I expect this sort of shit from him because let’s face it, he’s a pre-schooler who found a phone under a supermarket shelf that was logged into a BigFooty account.

The work of others as this thread and others like it have degenerated further and further, though, has been somewhat disappointing.