Analysis If Dustin Martin wins a 4th Norm Smith medal and premiership will he be regarded as the greatest player of all time?

[Noidnadroj]

You could raffle off the 18 QF to any number of players. 29 touches and a goal and no goal assists doesn’t scream dominance does it. In a game where two players had three goals, another had 26 touches and 3 goal assists.
The 17 grand final by broad consensus he probably made the difference at the end but Houli was the best player on the field.

2020 SF Houli had another huge game. Shai Bolton kicked 3, Shane Edwards had 21 touches and a couple of goals and 2 goal assists. Not sure how 25/1/1 beats that. But anyway.

That’s 3 that aren’t even really that debatable. I personally could see why he won the award in the 2017 decider as he provided the crucial couple of plays that ultimately won his team the game but I agree with the notion that the best player on the field was Houli and without him Martin can do as he pleases and they don’t win

Bahaha … so one of the games that is ‘not debatable’ is the 2017 GF, where he WON the Norm Smith and was adjudged BOG by 4 of 5 football experts whose job it was was to judge the best player on the ground. And it’s not like he got 3 coach’s votes, he got 8. And can I assume you’ve watched that game a total of once to form that opinion? But anyway…. That’s one of your ‘non-debatables’ and just be on the back of the ‘eye test’. Can’t be stats as Martins were extraordinary that day. 22 contested and went at 83% … unheard of.

Another ‘non-debatable’ is the 2020 SF. Martin got 8 x coach’s votes. Next best was Houli and Lynch with 5. And talk of stats that game? Martin had the most clearances, score involvements, inside 50’s and contested possessions on the ground. He also kicked a goal and had a goal assist. But this is one of your ‘non-debatables’ of him not being BOG..??

And your third of the 2018 QF probably has the most merit. He was given 7 x coach’s votes and Grimes given 10. Next best got 4. Martin led the team with 10 clearances, 10 score involvements and 17 contested possessions. Grimes was given 10 coach’s votes but it’s hard to recall his impact as he got 12 possessions. So coach’s rated Grimes best… from memory and what I’ve found every other commentator of the day rated Dusty BOG as who gives a player BOG with 12 touches?

So those are your three ‘non-debatables’ where he can’t have been BOG.

I know I’m biased but your ‘reverse bias’ is off the charts.



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[Kreuuuzeurns]

Best season ever? Maybe, wouldn’t argue for or against it.

Greatest player of all time? No.

 

[Noidnadroj]

No, my second game was the 2020 Semi-Final.

Keep up.

Also keen to hear when Coaches Votes are relevant, and when they're not...

2020 SF… oh, OK. At least with the 2017 GF you have Houli getting 10 x coach’s votes as a fallback even though stats, NS voters and plenty of media gave Martin best…. I’ve listened to every stations broadcast and most commentators said Martin wound win the NS when discussing it late in then game…. but I digress…

Now you’ve chosen a final where coach’s gave him 8 votes and next best was 5. A game where statistically he was clearly the standout player. And a game where all media adjudged him best. That’s a game where you’ve deduced he can’t have been adjudged BOG? What’s your fallback for that given it’s not coaches, stats or media?

As I said, c’mon Fadge, you’re better than this.




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[Noidnadroj]

2020 SF… oh, OK. At least with the 2017 GF you have Houli getting 10 x coach’s votes as a fallback even though stats, NS voters and plenty of media gave Martin best…. I’ve listened to every stations broadcast and most commentators said Martin wound win the NS when discussing it late in then game…. but I digress…

Now you’ve chosen a final where coach’s gave him 8 votes and next best was 5. A game where statistically he was clearly the standout player. And a game where all media adjudged him best. That’s a game where you’ve deduced he can’t have been adjudged BOG? What’s your fallback for that given it’s not coaches, stats or media?

As I said, c’mon Fadge, you’re better than this.




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[Noidnadroj]

You could raffle off the 18 QF to any number of players. 29 touches and a goal and no goal assists doesn’t scream dominance does it. In a game where two players had three goals, another had 26 touches and 3 goal assists.
The 17 grand final by broad consensus he probably made the difference at the end but Houli was the best player on the field.

2020 SF Houli had another huge game. Shai Bolton kicked 3, Shane Edwards had 21 touches and a couple of goals and 2 goal assists. Not sure how 25/1/1 beats that. But anyway.

That’s 3 that aren’t even really that debatable. I personally could see why he won the award in the 2017 decider as he provided the crucial couple of plays that ultimately won his team the game but I agree with the notion that the best player on the field was Houli and without him Martin can do as he pleases and they don’t win

AFL Finals 2018: Player ratings for Richmond against Hawthorn in First Qualifying Final

Tigers player ratings: Young gun built for finals, Dusty dominates

www.foxsports.com.au

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[PhatBoy]

The problem with your running down of Martin is you have no metric acceptable for you to measure.
Eg.
Awards-don't mean much
Awards-didn't deserve them
Brownlow- don't rate it
Peers and past legends- don't rate their opinions they're all brain dead.
Finals- home away more important
Home and Away - didn't win enough awards

Not sure who you think you’re arguing with but it isn’t me.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Congratulations everybody.
Thread has gone past 4000 posts!

 

[Meteoric Rise]

If you think of Dustin Martin’s 16 finals forming part of a regular 22 game season, in terms of 3-2-1 voting, correct me if I am wrong, but don’t THE COACHES have him on 25 votes with 6 rounds to go?

So he would be on track for a roughly 34 vote season on that basis. But remember, there are no weak teams to beat up on here, these are all the finals he has played. A 34 vote season I think wins every Brownlow Medal ever bar two, one of which Martin owns with his 36 vote season in 2017.

Yep folks, his career finals record as judged by coaches(7 x 3 votes, 2 x 2 votes from 16 matches) is so good that if a player did that in a regular season he would be on track to win all bar two Brownlow Medals in history. But still there are clowns on here trying to downplay his finals record because the Coaches awarded Houli 10 and Martin 8 in the 2017 GF. It is laughable.

And on his 2017 season. Coaches gave him 10 BOG’s in the regular season, and 2 BOG’s in 3 Finals. So Coaches gave him 12 x BOG in 25 games and I think 3 x runner-up BOG. So they rated his season massively, as we already knew from his record holding 122 Coaches Votes from the home and away season to add to his runaway Gary Ayres Medal win. We could be here forever arguing over whether anyone has had a better season ever, but you will find it tough to locate a player who has played a more meaningfully influential season than that, given the incredibly high performance in the biggest games.

 

[Noidnadroj]

If you think of Dustin Martin’s 16 finals forming part of a regular 22 game season, in terms of 3-2-1 voting, correct me if I am wrong, but don’t THE COACHES have him on 25 votes with 6 rounds to go?

So he would be on track for a roughly 34 vote season on that basis. But remember, there are no weak teams to beat up on here, these are all the finals he has played. A 34 vote season I think wins every Brownlow Medal ever bar two, one of which Martin owns with his 36 vote season in 2017.

Yep folks, his career finals record as judged by coaches(7 x 3 votes, 2 x 2 votes from 16 matches) is so good that if a player did that in a regular season he would be on track to win all bar two Brownlow Medals in history. But still there are clowns on here trying to downplay his finals record because the Coaches awarded Houli 10 and Martin 8 in the 2017 GF. It is laughable.

And on his 2017 season. Coaches gave him 10 BOG’s in the regular season, and 2 BOG’s in 3 Finals. So Coaches gave him 12 x BOG in 25 games and I think 3 x runner-up BOG. So they rated his season massively, as we already knew from his record holding 122 Coaches Votes from the home and away season to add to his runaway Gary Ayres Medal win. We could be here forever arguing over whether anyone has had a better season ever, but you will find it tough to locate a player who has played a more meaningfully influential season than that, given the incredibly high performance in the biggest games.

It was 11 x BOG’s in his Brownlow win


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[JR82]

Stengle could have made the difference. It makes you wonder how their talent spotters could get it so wrong.

It just goes to show what a decent culture can do for a kid.

Bit of a history lesson needed here, he left us for more opportunity, then things off field all went pear shaped once he'd moved to the Crows.

 

[JR82]

If you think of Dustin Martin’s 16 finals forming part of a regular 22 game season, in terms of 3-2-1 voting, correct me if I am wrong, but don’t THE COACHES have him on 25 votes with 6 rounds to go?

So he would be on track for a roughly 34 vote season on that basis. But remember, there are no weak teams to beat up on here, these are all the finals he has played. A 34 vote season I think wins every Brownlow Medal ever bar two, one of which Martin owns with his 36 vote season in 2017.

Yep folks, his career finals record as judged by coaches(7 x 3 votes, 2 x 2 votes from 16 matches) is so good that if a player did that in a regular season he would be on track to win all bar two Brownlow Medals in history. But still there are clowns on here trying to downplay his finals record because the Coaches awarded Houli 10 and Martin 8 in the 2017 GF. It is laughable.

And on his 2017 season. Coaches gave him 10 BOG’s in the regular season, and 2 BOG’s in 3 Finals. So Coaches gave him 12 x BOG in 25 games and I think 3 x runner-up BOG. So they rated his season massively, as we already knew from his record holding 122 Coaches Votes from the home and away season to add to his runaway Gary Ayres Medal win. We could be here forever arguing over whether anyone has had a better season ever, but you will find it tough to locate a player who has played a more meaningfully influential season than that, given the incredibly high performance in the biggest games.

This is what makes Dusty the player he is, he's done it in Finals, in the big games against the best sides of that particular season.

 

[blaisee]

Stengle could have made the difference. It makes you wonder how their talent spotters could get it so wrong.

It just goes to show what a decent culture can do for a kid.

Can say the same about Josh Caddy.

Difference is, he won 2 flags, and beat Geelong both times in finals on the way

 

[Osho]

Can say the same about Josh Caddy.

Difference is, he won 2 flags, and beat Geelong both times in finals on the way

Very important player, espesh in 2017 getting in the faces of oppo, a real pain in the arse for them, not to mention crucial goals, contributing to the Tiges self confidence as the year went on and concluded. Was very important in 2019 also.

 

[Cdog71]

I’ve read comments here that Houli was the best player in the 2017 GF but that Martin was the difference.
I don’t agree but my question would be
So then who is the more valuable player?
It’s the more impactful player.
My view when justifying talent identification is : when the level goes up who can still do what they’re good at. And then who can do what others can’t.
Martin hit levels that couldn’t be defended and that for me is the point when talking about players.
For e.g Pendlebury is extraordinary, 16 years at the top level, Captain etc.
To be offered the position at the AIS over Patty Mills then to walk to Collingwood 3 weeks in and have the career he has I got no doubt he must have a mentality equal to any Olympian Gold medalist or World Champion but in my eyes Martin has more talent, impacted and won more when the level was at its highest and therefore a better player.
For me, the players that can’t be defended and can take the game away from the opposing team are the most talented and the most valuable players.

 

[blaisee]

Houli was much more impactful. He was down there nullifying Adelaide's attacking build ups. His first half in particularly was brilliant. Martin simply topped it off when Richmond had the game all but sealed.

This is baloney and has been disproven a million times with the stats presented

At least do some research before you say this garbage, it makes you look very silly

It is all in this thread if you are interested

 

[RonnieRaven]

Son Son 13 finals 30 goals
Dusty 16 finals 27 goals

 

[Soapy V]

Hard to argue that is in the discussion with the best

The best I have seen are Ablett Snr Carey & Matthews. My old man said Coleman was better than any of them. What a players does in finals I rate highly

Hard to find a player that has done better when it matters. Matthews maybe?

I don't know if he's the best but he's in the discussion

 

[JR82]

I hold huge value in what Players do or don't do in Finals, to me that is what puts players in the "elite" catagory & also goes the other way as well. On Dusty v Houli for the Norm Smith medal in '17 GF, i have heard the argument for Houli being he scored an important goal early, what those ppl don't remember is Dusty got the ball to him by winning a 1 v 2 contest he had no right to win. I was happy on the day with Dusty winning it & when u watch the game back you can see why.

 

[RonnieRaven]

I hold huge value in what Players do or don't do in Finals, to me that is what puts players in the "elite" catagory & also goes the other way as well. On Dusty v Houli for the Norm Smith medal in '17 GF, i have heard the argument for Houli being he scored an important goal early, what those ppl don't remember is Dusty got the ball to him by winning a 1 v 2 contest he had no right to win. I was happy on the day with Dusty winning it & when u watch the game back you can see why.

Then why is Cyril lauded as one of the best(elite) with 22 goals in 19 finals yet
son son isnt even spoken of and is even called a squib by some with 30 goals in 13 finals.
Team success, which should be a small factor when you have a squad of 40 and 22 game day.
It’s not basketball.
Prior to tiges flags the fans championed this.
Post flags team success has become a key factor when judging an individual.

 

[Interdimensional Bigfoot]

Sorry boys but the dust pan is cooked. Hasn't been the same since Robinson knocked him onto another dimension.

 

[Korol Mira]

It's a fairer question than what most people think. Personally I regard Martin as in the top 10 or so players ever given all that he's done for Richmond. No footballer in the last 50 years has meant more to his club than Martin. If Richmond didn't have him, they would never have won a flag let alone 3. Yes Cotchin, and to a lesser extent Rance/Riewoldt did great things to transform the team but Martin stood out like a man among boys in a really tough era. Having said that I don't regard him as the greatest player above Ablett/Carey given his inconsistencies. Ablett was objectively the best player in the league for 8 years...Martin 8 weeks. But he's up there

 

[RonnieRaven]

The thread should be if Fyfe was durable would he be regarded as the best ever.
Including finals Fyfe has only played 20+games 6x
2011(21games)
AFLCA best young player
2013(22)
Bnf, herald sun player of the year, 22U22
2014(20)
Bnf, AFL MVP, AA
2015(20)
Brownlow, MVP, herald sun player of the year, AA
2017(21)
best player in the west
2019(20)
Brownlow, Bnf, AA(c)

 

[ArtiChoked]

The thread should be if Fyfe was durable would he be regarded as the best ever.
Including finals Fyfe has only played 20+games 6x
2011(21games)
AFLCA best young player
2013(22)
Bnf, herald sun player of the year, 22U22
2014(20)
Bnf, AFL MVP, AA
2015(20)
Brownlow, MVP, herald sun player of the year, AA
2017(21)
best player in the west
2019(20)
Brownlow, Bnf, AA(c)

Oh yeah would’ve been 3x Brownlow medallist for sure probably even 4 and I think 8+ AA.

 

[Fadge]

The thread should be if Fyfe was durable would he be regarded as the best ever.
Including finals Fyfe has only played 20+games 6x
2011(21games)
AFLCA best young player
2013(22)
Bnf, herald sun player of the year, 22U22
2014(20)
Bnf, AFL MVP, AA
2015(20)
Brownlow, MVP, herald sun player of the year, AA
2017(21)
best player in the west
2019(20)
Brownlow, Bnf, AA(c)

Now that would be a great discussion that actually has some merit to it.

Do it!

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

The thread should be if Fyfe was durable would he be regarded as the best ever.
Including finals Fyfe has only played 20+games 6x
2011(21games)
AFLCA best young player
2013(22)
Bnf, herald sun player of the year, 22U22
2014(20)
Bnf, AFL MVP, AA
2015(20)
Brownlow, MVP, herald sun player of the year, AA
2017(21)
best player in the west
2019(20)
Brownlow, Bnf, AA(c)

No.