Is it Bucks or the Players?

[Maggie5]

The reason the Hawks are struggling is they have no depth thanks to an era of 4 Premierships.

I don't think that excuse really applies to us.

changed your tune to your original post?

 

[DuckToaster]

On the Collingwood website it links to a media article where Blair is quoted that Buckley did give them a serve.

That's not being disputed... The topic of the thread is whether or not it is Buckley or the players that should be blamed for our recent on field ability. My point of view is that it's more complicated than that and it's not a case of either one or the other. There are a lot of shades of grey at play! People seem to be quick to jump on either the sack bucks bandwagon or the we love bucks bandwagon but sadly not everything is black and white... parden the pun.

 

[DuckToaster]

The reason the Hawks are struggling is they have no depth thanks to an era of 4 Premierships.

I don't think that excuse really applies to us.

So only premiership winning teams get bad runs of injuries? Lol.

 

[The Magnificent Seven]

It's the players.

So at the start of Q3 on Sat night I said to my mate "Let's watch a player each. Forget the game we've lost it already (hah!) so we may as well make use of our view from up the ground".

So I watched Darcy Moore for most of Q3.

The kid can jump and kick and do the good things when he needs to.

But by god he's useless when he's not switched on. Spent a lot of the time just running up the ground shoulder-to-shoulder with his opponent. There was no attempt to run wide, or to create space, or to start leads just to throw his opponent of the scent. He was content ball-watching when it was up the field and then slowly jogged back towards goal when it looks like a turnover in the backline.

Someone (Rocca?!?) needs to tell him to break his game up, get in his opponents ear, run him off his feet and generally cause them pain by bringing the uncertainty and doubt into the game so that their opponent is left guessing.

That's just 1 player. No doubt 5-6 other young 'uns still learning the craft. Bucks and crew can coach all they like but if the kids aren't executing on Game Day then we stand no chance. When these patterns suddenly become second nature then we become a top 8 side.

 

[Chrispiesssss]

It's the players.

So at the start of Q3 on Sat night I said to my mate "Let's watch a player each. Forget the game we've lost it already (hah!) so we may as well make use of our view from up the ground".

So I watched Darcy Moore for most of Q3.

The kid can jump and kick and do the good things when he needs to.

But by god he's useless when he's not switched on. Spent a lot of the time just running up the ground shoulder-to-shoulder with his opponent. There was no attempt to run wide, or to create space, or to start leads just to throw his opponent of the scent. He was content ball-watching when it was up the field and then slowly jogged back towards goal when it looks like a turnover in the backline.

Someone (Rocca?!?) needs to tell him to break his game up, get in his opponents ear, run him off his feet and generally cause them pain by bringing the uncertainty and doubt into the game so that their opponent is left guessing.

That's just 1 player. No doubt 5-6 other young 'uns still learning the craft. Bucks and crew can coach all they like but if the kids aren't executing on Game Day then we stand no chance. When these patterns suddenly become second nature then we become a top 8 side.

I couldn't agree anymore with this comment. Darcy has had 11 TACKLES FOR THE WHOLE SEASON. That's disgraceful. I don't really care what people say. His PB this year is 3 against the Hawks. He's had 3 no tackles games. In comparison to Riewoldt who's has had 25 tackles, and only the GWS game had 0 tackles.

 

[Daniel J]

Pies end of 2011

A young premiership list. Capable of winning more premierships.
All draft picks gone to gold coast and now to gws meaning the chasing pack would not improve as quickly as normal.
Perfect time to be on top of the AFL. Should of have targeted 2 to 3 more premierships.

But wait....


Let's replace the coach, dismantle the squad and rebuild in time to compete(if rebuild goes to plan) with the gws who have 20 top ten draft picks.

This goes down as one of the worst debacles in sporting history. All coaches, recruiters and people responsible need to go. Just not acceptable.

We could of challenged for more flags over past 6 years and still be where we are today.

 

[Chameleon75]

The greatest coach of the past decade managed to blow a 43 point lead. Just let that sit with you and you'll realise how unimportant the coach is on game day.

And the side sitting 43 points down changed game style and won

 

[SwanDaneFan1991]

Jamie Elliot said today that he didn't remember anything Bucks said, he just knew they were copping a spray.

That is a bit naughty. Make big brother Billy skip dance practice and run the extra laps for little brother Jamie at training me thinks. Not listening to the coach tsk tsk

 

[BringouttheGimp]

110% Buckley's fault.

This team has looked like a complete mess for the most part of 6 yrs.. when we are playing well.. its at a frenetic pace that really is not sustainable long term.

Buckley's nous as a coach is what we saw in the 1st quarter.. instructing your players to play on at all costs is not a master stroke.

At best Buckley.. might turn out to be a good coach.. but not great.

 

[Maggie5]

It's the players.

So at the start of Q3 on Sat night I said to my mate "Let's watch a player each. Forget the game we've lost it already (hah!) so we may as well make use of our view from up the ground".

So I watched Darcy Moore for most of Q3.

The kid can jump and kick and do the good things when he needs to.

But by god he's useless when he's not switched on. Spent a lot of the time just running up the ground shoulder-to-shoulder with his opponent. There was no attempt to run wide, or to create space, or to start leads just to throw his opponent of the scent. He was content ball-watching when it was up the field and then slowly jogged back towards goal when it looks like a turnover in the backline.

Someone (Rocca?!?) needs to tell him to break his game up, get in his opponents ear, run him off his feet and generally cause them pain by bringing the uncertainty and doubt into the game so that their opponent is left guessing.

That's just 1 player. No doubt 5-6 other young 'uns still learning the craft. Bucks and crew can coach all they like but if the kids aren't executing on Game Day then we stand no chance. When these patterns suddenly become second nature then we become a top 8 side.

That's a great way to watch.
Just about every game I go to depending on the state of the game I watch a player.

 

[Chrispiesssss]

It's been more than 12 hours since he poll was up, I'm really really surprised to see that it's 21 to 18 favouring bucks. yet most collingwood fans say "get rid of Bucks and collingwood is a better team".

Interesting.

 

[Horaceg]

The reason the Hawks are struggling is they have no depth thanks to an era of 4 Premierships.

I don't think that excuse really applies to us.

Also taking out their number 1 and 2 best and fairest couldn't help, plus the loss in on field leadership was not great for immediate success. It takes time to replace guys like that.

 

[Gone Critical]

Pies end of 2011

A young premiership list. Capable of winning more premierships.
All draft picks gone to gold coast and now to gws meaning the chasing pack would not improve as quickly as normal.
Perfect time to be on top of the AFL. Should of have targeted 2 to 3 more premierships.

But wait....


Let's replace the coach, dismantle the squad and rebuild in time to compete(if rebuild goes to plan) with the gws who have 20 top ten draft picks.

This goes down as one of the worst debacles in sporting history. All coaches, recruiters and people responsible need to go. Just not acceptable.

We could of challenged for more flags over past 6 years and still be where we are today.

Pies at the end of 2012.

Hit badly by injuries in the season. Played with only minimal tweaking of the 2011 gameplan and personnel. Got to a prelim based on effort but by season end it seemed a number of teams had gone past us. End came quickly for a number of vital players. Didak, Tarrant, Johnno, Jolly, Brown.

In hindsight we were probably not in a position to snag flags above Hawks and Sydney in 2013. All teams that have been up have to come down. We finished top 4 five seasons in six, it was a fairly extended run. 2011 was the big miss and 2012 we were a chance but injuries and JMacs passing cruelled us.

 

[Gone Critical]

My take is it's mainly the players, it almost always is but it's always easier to replace the coach. In Bucks case he is struggling with coaching and is only still in the job because of his name. Still if we replace him tomorrow we will have the same problems with our squad.

We could say it comes back to coaching and recruiting anyway so Bucksis to blame but at the current time I think we have one of the lesser talented playing groups running around. That's is balanced by the evenness of the competition where the difference between the best and worst list is now not that big. Saturday night was in effect 2 less talented lists going up against each other. Hawks have fallen in talent quickly especially with their current injuries. So it was great to win but the 2nd half performance isn't evidence of an innate talent in the list that isn't being utilised. It's just part of the ebbs and flows that we see. You can make all sorts of assertions based on weekly fluctuations. Crows form 2 weeks ago. Cats of a few weeks ago compared to Friday night etcetc etc.

One stepped up performance isn't revealing a real character of the list nor is one or two bad weeks. We are an amalgam of our season performances. Based on that we are not that good and need more rebuilding. The playing personal will help that the most but a better coach can be the icing on the cake.

 

[El cane]

https://audioboom.com/posts/5941692-radio-jamie-elliott-on-triple-m
"Can you tell us about the 1/4 time spray?"
"It was just a good old fashioned spray, I don't remember what it was about I was just standing there copping it"

If the answer was simply yelling at players why couldn't Clarkson do the same at the 3/4 huddle? Aside from moving the odd player around to mess with match ups coaches can't really do a lot on game day other than kick and scream like the rest of us. Do I think the players deserved the spray? Definitely. Do I think Collingwood would be different with Clarko in charge? No, not without dramatic list changes.

Anyone know if Clarkson let rip at the players at 3/4 time or after the game.

 

[Brad Goodman]

I would say the players, but facilitated by the way they are coached.

That didn't really answer the question did it.

 

[jmac70]

Inconsistency is not unique to Collingwood. It's a very even year and every team is experiencing regular dips in form.

 

[Kirby]

We beat a very ordinary team on Saturday night. I don't think any of us should be fooled by the comeback too much (as good as it was).

As a poster pointed out earlier we are fine if a team lets as prance around through the middle with no pressure (see Hawks last week, Geelong a few weeks back and Sydney in the first quarter).

We have coaching problems as sorry as I am to say it.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

I'm not sure how anyone can come to the conclusion that it's the players when history has proven so many times what a change in coach achieves with the same group of players, or a change in methodology/strategy from the same coach achieves in the same group of players.

Of course it's the coach. Even MORE so in Buckley's case given he took over a young premiership team, gutted it, created his own team and even took THAT one further down the ladder.

 

[wicksy]

I think that's weak. Someone needs to cop the blame. We can no longer just blame both. There needs to be a direct correlation between problem and cause.

It might be weak but it's truthful.
I won't try and stop your witch hunt but just know that s**t poll is s**t.

 

[wicksy]

I'm not sure how anyone can come to the conclusion that it's the players when history has proven so many times what a change in coach achieves with the same group of players, or a change in methodology/strategy from the same coach achieves in the same group of players.

Of course it's the coach. Even MORE so in Buckley's case given he took over a young premiership team, gutted it, created his own team and even took THAT one further down the ladder.

 

[DaVe86]

I think a lot of the inconsistency also relates to the inconsistent selection every week.

That has been largely due to injury and forced changes, but also I don't think selection has sent the right messages either. We start the year with 3 talls which is what we trained with all pre season. Then after one week we go to two talks, and now we have 1 tall.

Also, Elliott, Moore and Fasolo have pretty much played 1 month of footy together as a combination, and clearly our defence is filled with 6 players who haven't played together at all. The only one in our defence who has been on our list for more than 2 years is Goldsack, but he missed large parts of last year as well.

Our midfield is also relatively new. Treloar there one year, Adams 3, Wells 1, greenwood 2, Varcoe 2.

I think we need some consistency with selection. We have had an ok run with injuries. I'd like to get some games into Scharenberg and some of the other draftees if the season goes down the gurgler, but I'd also like to see us stick with a structure. Right now that might be a small forward line.

 

[4tone]

The spray was awesome, it was required, Bucks I think has uncorked the genie. But in saying, he himself needs to let go, team selection, game day moves, just needs to remove the shovel that is stuck in his arse. It can be done its not too late, this season can be so different.

 

[jmac70]

I'm not sure how anyone can come to the conclusion that it's the players when history has proven so many times what a change in coach achieves with the same group of players, or a change in methodology/strategy from the same coach achieves in the same group of players.

Of course it's the coach. Even MORE so in Buckley's case given he took over a young premiership team, gutted it, created his own team and even took THAT one further down the ladder.

History has also shown that a change in coach achieves nothing, sometimes in fact it makes things worse. If Bucks still has the players support then there is no point changing the coach this year.

 

[Leviathan Pie]

History has also shown that a change in coach achieves nothing, sometimes in fact it makes things worse. If Bucks still has the players support then there is no point changing the coach this year.

Fairly poor statement, based on the most recent history.

i.e the Bulldogs.