USA Is the USA the worst nation to exist since classical times?

[Geelong_Sicko]

From this video:

(They mention Whitlam as part of the preamble)

This is some... scary s**t.

The sh*t state of affairs is that Australia as a political construct has ALWAYS hidden behind the 'protection' of the current world hegemon. The United Kingdom and then after the fall of Singapore in WW2 the United States of America. We've always been what, at the very best, could be described as an indentured servant.

Slave. Vassal. Minion. All probably closer to the mark.

 

[barreness]

Saved the world from Nazis in World War 2!

I mean lend lease and the pacific navy certainly helped, if a little late to the party. That would be the Soviets/Chinese(Communist and nationalists) doing the actual saving us from the fascists, you know like dying for it

 

[Carringbush2010]

The sh*t state of affairs is that Australia as a political construct has ALWAYS hidden behind the 'protection' of the current world hegemon. The United Kingdom and then after the fall of Singapore in WW2 the United States of America. We've always been what, at the very best, could be described as an indentured servant.

Slave. Vassal. Minion. All probably closer to the mark.

Yep, and? Surely this is not lament for you.

I'll repeat again, if it ain't uncle Sam and King then who?
I get the don't wanna be a minion mantra, OK, explain how not?

 

[Rob R]

I mean lend lease and the pacific navy certainly helped, if a little late to the party. That would be the Soviets/Chinese(Communist and nationalists) doing the actual saving us from the fascists, you know like dying for it

Communists pretty well chickened out to save their energy to fight the Chinese government Chinese people and the nationalists fought phenomenally hard as did the Soviets

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[Geelong_Sicko]

Yep, and? Surely this is not lament for you.

I'll repeat again, if it ain't uncle Sam and King then who?
I get the don't wanna be a minion mantra, OK, explain how not?

Just stand on our own under the national strategy of 'armed neutrality'. Be a friend to all but a slave to none.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Just stand on our own under the national strategy of 'armed neutrality'. Be a friend to all but a slave to none.

This is idealistic, do you know of any other medium powers that are allowed to isolate unto themselves? Their colonizers don't come directing their minions?

 

[barreness]

Communists pretty well chickened out to save their energy to fight the Chinese government Chinese people and the nationalists fought phenomenally hard as did the Soviets

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Anti communist rubbish. The entire period 1894-1949 in china was very convoluted, CCP was a unit within KMT for much of that period until the nationalists started massacring them.

Where do you even get this talking point? ROC retcon

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

This is idealistic, do you know of any other medium powers that are allowed to isolate unto themselves? Their colonizers don't come directing their minions?

Of course it is idealistic at this stage. I would like to see how it pans out though. It would take a level of political discipline as-yet-unseen in the history of this nation.

 

[Spearman]

Communists pretty well chickened out to save their energy to fight the Chinese government Chinese people and the nationalists fought phenomenally hard as did the Soviets

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IIRC they had to kidnap CKS to come to the table to agree to fight against the Japanese. The Little General was promptly arrested afterward and imprisoned until died many years later on Taiwan.
The KMT took much of the money and aid given to them. They were notoriously corrupt from the top down. True, the ordinary soldiers fought for their lives, or ran away when their officers took all there supplies. CKS brought are much of his military deep into the hinterland to wait it out. Lin Biao and Mao fought guerilla war from their base in Yanaan? (can't remember the name, had loess caves) CKS drove them out of their base in SE China which led to the Long March. Also true thought that Mao knew they would have to fight it out once the war was over and planned accordingly.
Anyway way off topic.
Aus is a large country with relatively few people. Your regions facing potential enemies are sparsely populated and isolated. Always hard to defend. I know, how about building some CV and sub fleets, buying some expensive air power from your favorite uncle?

 

[Rob R]

Anti communist rubbish. The entire period 1894-1949 in china was very convoluted, CCP was a unit within KMT for much of that period until the nationalists started massacring them.

Where do you even get this talking point? ROC retcon

Even the CCP propaganda machine doesn't try to claim they launched any major attacks after 1940. They were part of the KMT in name but ignored orders and reserved their strength.

Neither side was good but at least the KMT fought (would have been much better if they didnt have as much corruption).

Although the real heroes are the Chinese people who fought incredibly well and have suffered under two barbaric regimes. Hopefully one day they finally get a chance to choose their own way and be free of the shame of CKS, and Mao.

Things were looking good ten years ago until Xi decided to take them backwards in his own need for power. His people now suffering as the benefits of the reforms implemented by his predecessors that brought millions out of poverty are undone.

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[schneebly111]

I'll repeat again, if it ain't uncle Sam and King then who?
I get the don't wanna be a minion mantra, OK, explain how not?

Ourselves and our neighbours - ASEAN. ASEAN's economies are bigger than the UK or India.

If our closest neighbours are our biggest friends and partners then our security is greatly improved. No invasion force from China is getting to Australia wihtout going through ASEAN first (although that is a furphy to begin with).

We don't need to tie ourselves to a declining empire and country (US) and an already declined empire and rapidly declining country (UK).

The clinging to the AUKUS fallacy is just the dying throes of a nation that can't shake it's yellow peril mentality. The demographics of the country are already 20% Asian, it's time our society, culture and politics reflected that.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Of course it is idealistic at this stage. I would like to see how it pans out though. It would take a level of political discipline as-yet-unseen in the history of this nation.

Of course it's ideal, just not achievable in our lifetimes at least.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Ourselves and our neighbours - ASEAN. ASEAN's economies are bigger than the UK or India.

If our closest neighbours are our biggest friends and partners then our security is greatly improved. No invasion force from China is getting to Australia wihtout going through ASEAN first (although that is a furphy to begin with).

We don't need to tie ourselves to a declining empire and country (US) and an already declined empire and rapidly declining country (UK).

The clinging to the AUKUS fallacy is just the dying throes of a nation that can't shake it's yellow peril mentality. The demographics of the country are already 20% Asian, it's time our society, culture and politics reflected that.

Yeah sure, just flick the switch. I'm sure it'll go without a hitch.

 

[schneebly111]

Things were looking good ten years ago until Xi decided to take them backwards in his own need for power. His people now suffering as the benefits of the reforms implemented by his predecessors that brought millions out of poverty are undone.

Backwards? China's HDI (level of development) has risen by an average of 1% per year over the last decade. For comparison the USA's has risen by only 0.1% and Australia 0.27% (ie China has gone forward 10x as much as America and 4x as much as Australia)

 

[Gethelred]

Yep, and? Surely this is not lament for you.

I'll repeat again, if it ain't uncle Sam and King then who?
I get the don't wanna be a minion mantra, OK, explain how not?

I think there is a difference between being an ally versus being a lapdog, and the history of refusing to push back if/when America encroaches that bit too much encapsulates that difference.

 

[schneebly111]

Yeah sure, just flick the switch. I'm sure it'll go without a hitch.

Why are you so dismissive? We pretty much flicked a switch in 1942 (1788 for that matter too)

Good diplomacy is based on long term relationships, trust and understanding built up over years. We can make a positive switch to align ourselves with our neighbours if our leaders chose to do so.

It isn't 1901 or 1942 anymore. It's 2024. We live in a nation that is 20% Asian already, and will become less Anglo Saxon as the years go by.

 

[Rob R]

Ourselves and our neighbours - ASEAN. ASEAN's economies are bigger than the UK or India.

If our closest neighbours are our biggest friends and partners then our security is greatly improved. No invasion force from China is getting to Australia wihtout going through ASEAN first (although that is a furphy to begin with).

We don't need to tie ourselves to a declining empire and country (US) and an already declined empire and rapidly declining country (UK).

The clinging to the AUKUS fallacy is just the dying throes of a nation that can't shake it's yellow peril mentality. The demographics of the country are already 20% Asian, it's time our society, culture and politics reflected that.

Yet most of our ASEAN friends are asking for a larger US presence. Interesting you always seem to ignore the growing Japanese, Korean, Philippines, Indonesian, Vietnamese concerns about Xi (not China as the Chinese people have little influence on Xis behaviour)

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[Spearman]

Backwards? China's HDI (level of development) has risen by an average of 1% per year over the last decade. For comparison the USA's has risen by only 0.1% and Australia 0.27% (ie China has gone forward 10x as much as America and 4x as much as Australia)

They had a lot of ground to make up. I went there in 85. No private cars except Guangzhou, and very few anywhere. Shanghai was nonstop bicycle jams. Pudong was some paddy fields across the fetid river. The infrastructure was ancient but changing rapidly in some areas. Again, in Guangzhou, I left for couple week trip into rest of country. A hotel was just under construction then, a big one at that. Seemingly not even close to completion. When I got back it was finished, and had lots of guests from HK. They had decades of development to catch up on and they were chomping at the bit. I think they are naturally entrepreneurial, everyone wants to be a boss. Deng was sharp and shouldn't have been deposed either time.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Why are you so dismissive? We pretty much flicked a switch in 1942 (1788 for that matter too)

Good diplomacy is based on long term relationships, trust and understanding built up over years. We can make a positive switch to align ourselves with our neighbours if our leaders chose to do so.

It isn't 1901 or 1942 anymore. It's 2024. We live in a nation that is 20% Asian already, and will become less Anglo Saxon as the years go by.

Dismissive? I'm being realistic. Flicked the switch in 42? If anything our alliance with uncle sam grew stronger in wwII.

Your idea that we can just cut ties with uncle and king is at best idealistic, trust me I'd like to do the same.

So what are the choices? Well we're already a long way into a long road of aligning with SE Asia (your wish), does that justify (as in doesn't weaken alliance wise) cutting ties with uncle and king tomorrow?

Or should we align with China? Baring in mind Xi would 'encourage' us away from democracy.

What other choices?

 

[Carringbush2010]

I think there is a difference between being an ally versus being a lapdog, and the history of refusing to push back if/when America encroaches that bit too much encapsulates that difference.

Of course, we're a lapdog, I started a whole thread on the topic. Doesn't mean I'm a fan, just pointing out the reality of what we are.

They say jump we say how high, still the least worst option I can think of.

 

[Gethelred]

Of course, we're a lapdog, I started a whole thread on the topic. Doesn't mean I'm a fan, just pointing out the reality of what we are.

... only you, CB, could make a point so obvious that it's acknowledged by every single other person in the thread already (and who have all moved past it) as though it were profoundest insight.

They say jump we say how high, still the least worst option I can think of.

You're arguing against a point no-one has made. Again.

 

[ferball]

The sh*t state of affairs is that Australia as a political construct has ALWAYS hidden behind the 'protection' of the current world hegemon. The United Kingdom and then after the fall of Singapore in WW2 the United States of America. We've always been what, at the very best, could be described as an indentured servant.

Slave. Vassal. Minion. All probably closer to the mark.

We're a colony. We have a colony's mentality.

 

[Carringbush2010]

... only you, CB, could make a point so obvious that it's acknowledged by every single other person in the thread already (and who have all moved past it) as though it were profoundest insight.

Yet, here we have other posters besides yourself Gethy who are advocating that we cut ties with uncle sam and king chuck.

So, my obvious point, you maybe need to direct your replies to them.

 

[Carringbush2010]

... only you, CB, could make a point so obvious that it's acknowledged by every single other person in the thread already (and who have all moved past it) as though it were profoundest insight.

You're arguing against a point no-one has made. Again.

Again, you need to direct your replies to those advocating alliances other than sam and chuck.

 

[barreness]

Dismissive? I'm being realistic. Flicked the switch in 42? If anything our alliance with uncle sam grew stronger in wwII.

Your idea that we can just cut ties with uncle and king is at best idealistic, trust me I'd like to do the same.

So what are the choices? Well we're already a long way into a long road of aligning with SE Asia (your wish), does that justify (as in doesn't weaken alliance wise) cutting ties with uncle and king tomorrow?

Or should we align with China? Baring in mind Xi would 'encourage' us away from democracy.

What other choices?

We didn't have a meaningful alliance with the US pre 42. Curtin did somewhat flick the switch, Statute of Westminster Adoption Act 1942 - Wikipedia. The fall of Singapore and much of SE asia saw British influence in the region decrease and we couldn't be fighting their war in Europe anymore.

We pulled away from being a British lapdog and moved to the US, Curtin did actually try to pull back from this once imminent threat of Japanese invasion was over, because he thought the US were capitalist pig dogs but that's another story.

Our choice is to go more non-aligned. Of course economic and cultural exchanges will continue as they did with the British but we need not have our foreign policy defined by the US