Coach Justin Longmuir Pt 2

[Joao]

I hear what you're saying, both arguments actually with rgauci. The problem is the club is caught between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand it's good we're a 'young' team, building a positive-looking future with some gun drafts, but on the other....how patient do we have to be..?! How soon is now to quote a Smiths song? It's already 2024, into J-Lo's 5th year and the rebuild should be over. You draft 3 'gun' forwards, that's ace....very nice, about time! But in 3/4 years time....?!

It just keeps pushing the 'competing for Premierships' timeline back...or forwards. Or maybe nowhere, just no man's land. It's always good to talk the talk, but can you walk the walk?! Stop trying to impress your fans with talk of an exciting future that keeps disappearing each year over the horizon when we can't contend. How can it realistically be 2024 and we still have a dysfunctional forward line, we've been discussing this problem forever!!! If this rebuild fails, the club fails and it might be catastrophic. A lot rides on it.

It's a bit scary. Are people prepared to 'wait' until.....when?! 2025? 2026, 2027?! 2028..?!?!?!

I'm not so sure, people are already bemoaning the 30-year draught, it's not easy to win the damn thing but we keep that revolving door of experienced players going and replacing them with more 'top end' draft picks. Some players might ultimately be replaceable - your Henrys, Logues, Tuckers and Lobbs, and even Acres and Schultz (probably the most required out of that bunch), but they're also players that have been in the system, developed and built chemistry and know-how with the guys that still remain here. Evidently there's enough quality in the defenders and mids right now, but stark and frighteningly barren up forward for the most part. Clearly the Treacy/Jackson/Amiss trio could be awesome propositions, but reality is, they're just getting going. Darcy (not through deliberate fault) is a problem right now, because his injuries are disrupting our cohesiveness and certainly our ability to use the Triple J threat in attack. Dogga, doing heaps of ruck work, looks burnt out to me, sadly. Our smalls conundrum is the area that's really fallible and weak right now.

Sometimes it feels like we're stuck in a kind of quasi-masochistic cycle where the club just gets sporadically excited by shiny new draft toys. That either don't make it, can't make it...or make it in 4 years time!! Look at that 2017 draft haul of the likes of Scott Jones, Tom North, Mitch Crowden and Switta, I mean blink and you miss most of them, gone in the blink of an eye. You sort of think what was the point in cutting so deep to replace 'mediocre talent' with more mediocre talent...?!?! Our drafting since then has been mostly spot on but you can't keep drafting LOTS forever, even with top 20 picks. At some point we need to add that polish and power, Baker and Warner would instantly rocket us into top 4 calculations. Clearly it's a pipedream right now, but that's where I'd be leaning more towards if I were the club. I don't get to decide though...

I don't know, I don't feel good about it. I think we should be trading in talent (which goes back to your point....who?!). Freo is not a destination club compared to the other 'big' clubs, so it's not easy to cherry pick out whoever you please - even if they're a WA born player or want to return home. It was weird we didn't try and trade in last year but we didn't have much currency because of the Jackson trade. I guess we could have used Port's first and our future first to get someone, but we didn't feel it needed to be done or couldn't find the right suitors. It's a tough gig this AFL caper, especially for a minnow like the Dockers.

I respect the club wants to project ambition and be 'bold', but this strategy and certain statements could backfire and leave them with some stinky egg on their face. I guess the next dozen or so weeks will give us a better indication on if we're closer to contending (I personally doubt it for 2024), let's hope something positive transpires though, especially after the hurt of the past few days.

I've bolded the part where I think you're stuck.

It doesn't matter what you or any else thinks should be the case. The facts are that the demographics have us young still (compounded by how relatively little we get out of our 29+ brigade compared to some other clubs) and we clearly need to add a few pieces. This could happen out of nowhere (trade or draft) and suddenly it all fits together. See Kosi and Jackson at Melbourne as the most obvious recent example.

There is a clear horizon - that core group of ~16 or so players are committed long term, and their output is the driver of success. It'll happen when it happens.

 

[DragoDelph]

I've bolded the part where I think you're stuck.

It doesn't matter what you or any else thinks should be the case. The facts are that the demographics have us young still (compounded by how relatively little we get out of our 29+ brigade compared to some other clubs) and we clearly need to add a few pieces. This could happen out of nowhere (trade or draft) and suddenly it all fits together. See Kosi and Jackson at Melbourne as the most obvious recent example.

There is a clear horizon - that core group of ~16 or so players are committed long term, and their output is the driver of success. It'll happen when it happens.

Yeah.

I get that people are completely frustrated and over the whole "next year" narrative. But this actually rings true.

By next year, the core will have moved into that 100+ game mark, with the bulk of that played together.

This year, we figure out we need to finish off the squad. This year, we get the games and experience into the squad for next year.

Yeah, the club cooked in the 22 off season, and set us back a year or two. But it's done.

Finals this year, challengers next year. If everything goes to s**t, then we look at the coaching group, because the players will be ready.

 

[Joao]

Yeah.

I get that people are completely frustrated and over the whole "next year" narrative. But this actually rings true.

By next year, the core will have moved into that 100+ game mark, with the bulk of that played together.

This year, we figure out we need to finish off the squad. This year, we get the games and experience into the squad for next year.

Yeah, the club cooked in the 22 off season, and set us back a year or two. But it's done.

Finals this year, challengers next year. If everything goes to s**t, then we look at the coaching group, because the players will be ready.

The really frustrating part is that it could happen at any time. They are probably just close enough to the threshold now, but predicting exactly when it happens is impossible. Could be any point between now and the end of next season. I get frustrated because I constantly think we've got it when we haven't. Most recently, I thought we might have been there after the SA trip.

My gut is we finish 9th or 10th this year, maybe only by half a game or % from 8th, then come out the start of next year significantly better. Won't win the flag though unless we find some quality forwards over the off-season.

 

[DragoDelph]

The really frustrating part is that it could happen at any time. They are probably just close enough to the threshold now, but predicting exactly when it happens is impossible. Could be any point between now and the end of next season. I get frustrated because I constantly think we've got it when we haven't. Most recently, I thought we might have been there after the SA trip.

My gut is we finish 9th or 10th this year, maybe only by half a game or % from 8th, then come out the start of next year significantly better. Won't win the flag though unless we find some quality forwards over the off-season.

Get it completely.

I was off the club all together after last season. But you can see it. The consistency in game has improved, now it's the week to week that needs improvement.

It's like watching a dripping tap into a cup. Waiting for that last drip that breaks the surface tension and sends the water cascading. Is that last drip Simpson? Is it a few more weeks together? Is it a Baker/Warner/Bolton at the end of the year?

We're an impatient lot, and there's no chat codes to hurry things along.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

The really frustrating part is that it could happen at any time. They are probably just close enough to the threshold now, but predicting exactly when it happens is impossible. Could be any point between now and the end of next season. I get frustrated because I constantly think we've got it when we haven't. Most recently, I thought we might have been there after the SA trip.

My gut is we finish 9th or 10th this year, maybe only by half a game or % from 8th, then come out the start of next year significantly better. Won't win the flag though unless we find some quality forwards over the off-season.

I'm at the point where I've seen enough this year to be confident there is currently one hell of a team from the backline to the middle but no one is doing anything with that forwardline until Switta or Emmett are the worst forward comfortably and constantly fighting off someone else coming for their spot

 

[blue shark]

I'm at the point where I've seen enough this year to be confident there is currently one hell of a team from the backline to the middle but no one is doing anything with that forwardline until Switta or Emmett are the worst forward comfortably and constantly fighting off someone else coming for their spot

It’s why we need an offensive coach to work with the mid/forward connection.
To overseer the forward midfield coaches.
An outside point of view and preferably someone who has experience.

 

[GingerDocker]

I'm at the point where I've seen enough this year to be confident there is currently one hell of a team from the backline to the middle but no one is doing anything with that forwardline until Switta or Emmett are the worst forward comfortably and constantly fighting off someone else coming for their spot

A lot of talk in the off season was working out what currently listed players could transition to the forward line to fill the obvious dearth of talent we have up there.

Any more thoughts on this?

• My recollection was Ras was training to play at half forward?
• Could Walker play forward pocket, particularly if there is no obvious match up for him down back?
• When Cox is back, can he or Draper push forward?

 

[Bigger]

I reckon Jaymie Graham

Jaymie Graham

Age

41

Ht

196cm

Wt

93kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.9

3star

K

7.8

3star

HB

4.1

3star

M

4.7

4star

T

1.2

3star

No current season stats available

D

8.0

2star

K

4.4

2star

HB

3.6

3star

M

2.4

3star

T

0.4

3star

has done wonders with Jye and Josh - they work well together. There is always more to be done but I think the basis of the structure is there. A goalcrafty, x-factor mid or small is required.

The real and genuine issue is mids to forwards and mids feeling good enough about having a crack themselves.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

A lot of talk in the off season was working out what currently listed players could transition to the forward line to fill the obvious dearth of talent we have up there.

Any more thoughts on this?

• My recollection was Ras was training to play at half forward?
• Could Walker play forward pocket, particularly if there is no obvious match up for him down back?
• When Cox is back, can he or Draper push forward?

• Ras and Walker are too slow at decision making IMO, would not fix the problem
• Cox does not fix the problem because the talls are pretty good (and will be excellent).

The problem is only one of Walters, Emmett and Switta should be in a decent forwardline and they should be fighting off the other two coming for their spot. Instead, the competition is injured (Sturt and/or even Stanley), or not ready (Simpson and Delean) and at similar levels anyway

 

[dropbear101]

posted this on Sydney board. was having a bit of a discussion with them:

He's playing alongside Andrew Brayshaw who, a couple of seasons ago, was voted MVP by the AFLPA. He's still playing OK, but at nothing like the level he did during that season. I'm not sure why he's dropped off (or not continued to improve, given he's still a young player).

He's also got Young alongside him, who is quickly emerging as a Dawson-type midfielder.

They could probably do with a Chad type in there too. (I hope that doesn't give them any ideas.) They've got speed in the back-half and forward half. (I like Walker and Frederick.) But not much in the middle. Serong himself is agile and nippy, but not a powerful line breaker.

brayshaw has dropped off because teams put work into him. he won that MVP off being very hard-working midfielder. he would run well defensively and was noted for his tackling. then would be heavily involved in transitin play. he was never a contested player per say. if i were compare him it would actually be errol.

it should be noted he has dropped off statistically. he averaging approx 28 disposals a game. what dropped off is impact.

opposition teams identify that fremantle weakness is our effective ball movement in our forward half. thus cutting out players like clark and brayshaw becomes a must.

teams initially tagged him, which took him out of a game but also required the oppo team to lose a midfielder. eventually, they moved to a model of having the opposition gun play on him. thus, he would be forced to push deep defensively. start from a further back position when getting invovled. they would mind him more on transition. resulting in freo taking the more open option in serong and fyfe,..etc players who lack the pop and hurt a brayshaw can do. rotate more players on him to tire him out etc.

Serong is very good but needs a partner in crime in the middle.

it might be that serong needs to develop into a damaging player for him to get a partner in crime. once that happens then they can't sit on brayshaw.
but the criticism is fair. personally, i think that development will happen. hayden young is very good. but doesn't actually kick a lot (which is madness). plus we lack a 2nd wingman and rely upon jaegar o'meara. essentially chapman can play wing but missed all of last year and missed pre-season and early season this year. expect him to move into midfield as early as the next five games

 

[oldgoat]

I'm at the point where I've seen enough this year to be confident there is currently one hell of a team from the backline to the middle but no one is doing anything with that forwardline until Switta or Emmett are the worst forward comfortably and constantly fighting off someone else coming for their spot

Have we got them already?
could that be the making of Emmett?
Jack Delean?

 

[dropbear101]

i had an interesting conversation with dad. he was actually quite critical of jye amiss.

he seems to think that amiss was so dominant as a forward in his junior he is used to the forward line revolving around him. but, with the addition of treacy and jackson its now a multi-dimensional forward line.

but, seems to think hes clearly making an effort to rectify this problem

 

[dropbear101]

another point i kinda wanna say is that i listened to the radio and apparently within our midfield we had a much more zone/positional-based midfield system compared to sydney. they would move up and back. Because of this their midfield would be better at flooding pressure and would have a build-up where people are moving at pace.

i know people heap blame totally on the forward line. but perhaps our midfield system is resulting in us using a tiki taka (soccer style) ball movement. where we just pass it around to get the ball forward. rather than have true dynamism.

 

[doppo]

Have we got them already?
could that be the making of Emmett?
Jack Delean?

Delean has signs, definitely the goal sense the we need but from all reports is a long way off in other aspects. Would be surprised to see him debut this year.
Emmett I'm not convinced is more than an honest toiler that is getting a regular game at the moment because Shultz left. And then you have Walters - a club legend approaching the end of the road.
In terms of scoreboard, for 2024 - we've basically lost Shultz and Walters which is 50 - 60 goals a year.
We really need more scoring from Switta and JOM.

 

[WilloTree]

I’m leaning more towards this too now. The sheer lack of talent forward of the ball is alarming.

The risk is players like Serong and young reach 2027 free agency at their peak and we are still talking about the future and potential instead of actually contending and playing prelim finals, and winning 15 or 16 H&A games, to reassure those guys we are here for the long haul. They are impatient for success like any top talent is.
When it comes to forwards I think we age stuffed the rebuild a bit.
Thank god for the relative success of Treacy and Frederick at pick 60 and the rookie draft or we’d be ****ed altogether.
In summary - 4 picks in the top 25, all forwards would massively improve us in 3 years time.

Agree. A bit of the age stuffing was due to what has happed in regards to the 2018 off-season.

We traded in Hogan and Lobb, and drafted Sturt in the first round and Schultz late.

Freo probably also thought Dixon, Matera and Kersten wouldn't all be total busts and Taberner would play (a lot) more games than he has. Maybe even that Henry would be a mid/forward.

The problem I have is that we have known that the forward line 'rebuild' didn't work for years, yet nothing was done to address it. Year after year we knew it was coming. Losing Schultz reached critical mass.

 

[FreoGirl]

It’s why we need an offensive coach to work with the mid/forward connection.
To overseer the forward midfield coaches.
An outside point of view and preferably someone who has experience.

I think losing Carr as our midfield coach was huge

I was pro Lyon and didn't want JLo, but I feel like the boys do connect with him

He let us down after the Carlton game, by not being more aggressive, but he has at least taken a stand for Amiss. I feel like he can sometimes be a bit conservative when it comes to making changes.

At the moment, I feel he is what Freo needs

 

[GingerDocker]

Regardless of what you think of JL, surely we can all agree it was time for Lyon to go?

What St Kilda is dishing up atm is horrendous.

 

[Kram]

Regardless of what you think of JL, surely we can all agree it was time for Lyon to go?

What St Kilda is dishing up atm is horrendous.

Are you trying to jinx us or something work this week.

 

[FreoGirl]

Regardless of what you think of JL, surely we can all agree it was time for Lyon to go?

What St Kilda is dishing up atm is horrendous.

I did feel like Lyon didn't have the same arsenal as we have now, and our team did have loads of injuries

sometimes JLo can be a bit insipid, but we never really see what goes on behind the scenes

I would hate to see things drag out like the have with Luke B

Clarkson just looks like he is going through the motions at Norf, and doesn't really give a s**t

Simpson wins a couple of games, and remains "brave"

 

[dockshark]

For me, the biggest issue with JL is game day coaching and a lack of plan B. The model for beating Freo is pretty clear at the moment. Apply a lot of pressure on the ball carrier, force ball movement wide by holding structure behind the ball, cut off exits and force them to slow down, force turnovers through overuse of handball. If you can limit the effectiveness of one or both of Clark and Ryan then that’s the cherry on top.

We can’t be so predictable, and we need to be able to respond during the game to these conditions when they get applied.

 

[Van_Dyke]

not the biggest JL guy, but the number of times we've come back and fought back in games during his time doesn't suggest that to me

 

[Dirty_banchez]

The team burns too many opportunities moving forward. It's either a fumble, dropped mark, missed kick, missed handball or a player slipping over. There's just too many heckups in the forward line.

Players that cannot take their opportunities need to be dropped.

 

[dropbear101]

For me, the biggest issue with JL is game day coaching and a lack of plan B. The model for beating Freo is pretty clear at the moment. Apply a lot of pressure on the ball carrier, force ball movement wide by holding structure behind the ball, cut off exits and force them to slow down, force turnovers through overuse of handball. If you can limit the effectiveness of one or both of Clark and Ryan then that’s the cherry on top.

We can’t be so predictable, and we need to be able to respond during the game to these conditions when they get applied.

not the biggest JL guy, but the number of times we've come back and fought back in games during his time doesn't suggest that to me

i think its both true. there have been a number of times where freo have felt powerless and other times then seem to make impossible comebacks.

the 2 finals we played under longmuir are probs good examples of this. powerless against collingwood. all time comeback against the dogs

 

[FreoGirl]

The team burns too many opportunities moving forward. It's either a fumble, dropped mark, missed kick, missed handball or a player slipping over. There's just too many heckups in the forward line.

Players that cannot take their opportunities need to be dropped.

they don't seem to be quick to drop players, unless they have injuries etc

I guess the coaches still see Freo as dveloping and rebuilding, whilst supporters are hungry for results

 

[chaosball32]

they don't seem to be quick to drop players, unless they have injuries etc

I guess the coaches still see Freo as dveloping and rebuilding, whilst supporters are hungry for results

We’ve been rebuilding for nearly a decade now so it’s understandable why more and more supporters are growing impatient.