Modern footy vs 86 GF

Pessimistic

TheBrownDog
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Absolutely. It would be child’s play for them.
Current state league teams have players dedicating similar time to 80s VFL players, but they’ve got better quality training plans and superior game plans. Current state league teams would generally beat 80s VFL teams.

But no state league team would get within 10 goals of any AFL team.

That takes absolutely nothing away from sides of that era as they were putting out the absolute best that was possible at the time, as AFL teams are now, but now the absolute best is light years ahead.
Sorry i just dont see the backbone in the current suns to produce that. Ironically their coach would be the most likely. One nice aspect of the 2008 grand final was stuart dews retro footy making a mockery of the modern zoning that both hawthorn and geelong were employing that day

I get the fitness and tactics comparison, comparing an average team from both eras is fairly clear. but to chose one of the worst clubs going around now to compare with an all time great team is just asking for embarrassment. Once the ‘surprise’ element is taken out of it, its not a great comparison
 

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Gavin Excell

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The CHF was king. All the best teams had a very good one. Now to quote paul roos that play is seen as risky.
These days the escape kick or leading forward is more likely one whos run all day and made space
I remember my old school St Patrick's College Ballarat played its annual grudge match V Assumption in mid 80s. St Pats led by 2-3 goals at 3/4 time and were on course for a famous win. However we were all shocked when the Assumption coach moved his forward pockets and flankers up the ground in order to isolate their star full forward Blair Brownless (brother of). Assumption came over the top to win with Brownless instrumental.
The thing is it never occurred to any of us (or it appears St Pats coach either) to put players back to fill the space. Instead you played on your man. While this example is schoolboy football it does illustrate the blinkered strategy of the era.
 

Gavin Excell

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Sorry i just dont see the backbone in the current suns to produce that. Ironically their coach would be the most likely. One nice aspect of the 2008 grand final was stuart dews retro footy making a mockery of the modern zoning that both hawthorn and geelong were employing that day
I think modern teams would simply dominate possession. The systems, running and strategies would mean it would essentially be keepings off
 

Pessimistic

TheBrownDog
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I think modern teams would simply dominate possession. The systems, running and strategies would mean it would essentially be keepings off
And yet you quoted the bit where I said stuart dew alone (almost) smashed the posession game?

Also back in 91 thos all conquering hawks made to look silly by a ‘state side’ in adelaides first game.
The surprise factor, yet adelaide were soon back in the pack.

Imagine if a modern footy player didnt get stacks of video intel on his next weeks opponent? Itd be like playing blindfold ping pong
 
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windyhill

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The three things that stood out were:
  • Skills by foot and hand were inferior to the modern game. So many mungrel punts from both set shots and on the run. Many kicks failed to find their target. I have often read on this forum people lamenting the inability of modern players to kick well off both feet however the execution in the modern game seems of a much higher standard.
  • System - or lack thereof. Maybe it was just this match but the vast majority of the gameplay seemed to be eyes down kicks that were bombed forward to no apparent target. Ultimately the fitter and harder team won.
This still happens ! Watch any game recently and sooner or later the ball just gets bombed. I love a kick that just scrambles into the forward 50, it creates havoc and not part of some magical "game plan". Which is the most overhyped term in football.
 

Pessimistic

TheBrownDog
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I remember my old school St Patrick's College Ballarat played its annual grudge match V Assumption in mid 80s. St Pats led by 2-3 goals at 3/4 time and were on course for a famous win. However we were all shocked when the Assumption coach moved his forward pockets and flankers up the ground in order to isolate their star full forward Blair Brownless (brother of). Assumption came over the top to win with Brownless instrumental.
The thing is it never occurred to any of us (or it appears St Pats coach either) to put players back to fill the space. Instead you played on your man. While this example is schoolboy football it does illustrate the blinkered strategy of the era.
They say they used to isolate peter hudson in the forward half in the glenferrie days. That ground is so small the back half must have been just as congested as todays footy
 

NoobPie

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This still happens ! Watch any game recently and sooner or later the ball just gets bombed. I love a kick that just scrambles into the forward 50, it creates havoc and not part of some magical "game plan". Which is the most overhyped term in football.
The long bombs are part of some "magical game plan" though. Teams have "hot spots" that they kick where the forwards will try engineer space
 

Pessimistic

TheBrownDog
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Sorry i just dont see the backbone in the current suns to produce that. Ironically their coach would be the most likely. One nice aspect of the 2008 grand final was stuart dews retro footy making a mockery of the modern zoning that both hawthorn and geelong were employing that day

I get the fitness and tactics comparison, comparing an average team from both eras is fairly clear. but to chose one of the worst clubs going around now to compare with an all time great team is just asking for embarrassment. Once the ‘surprise’ element is taken out of it, its not a great comparison
When I said ‘ok they might win games, but could they play seven grand finals straight?’ I was just wondering how far people would take the hyperbolae
 

Stabby McGee

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Nobody is trying to take away from 86, but it is a different game now. The poster that said that the Suns would run them off their feet was right. Then there is tactics and rule changes. Give the Hawk team of the 80's the same deal we have now then we would see another dynasty... but that isn't the question. The question is (paraphrasing) 'The game has more skills now'. On that I disagree. It is more professional, but in any era there are guns, they just do what they do within the style of the day. I refuse to believe that a (say) 19 yo Dermie would be any less a champ today than in the 80's.

It's a bit like the Bradman discussion... would he be as good if he was playing now? The answer is yes. Maybe in a different way as things have changed, but the talent would always shine through.
 

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Gavin Excell

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Nobody is trying to take away from 86, but it is a different game now. The poster that said that the Suns would run them off their feet was right. Then there is tactics and rule changes. Give the Hawk team of the 80's the same deal we have now then we would see another dynasty... but that isn't the question. The question is (paraphrasing) 'The game has more skills now'. On that I disagree. It is more professional, but in any era there are guns, they just do what they do within the style of the day. I refuse to believe that a (say) 19 yo Dermie would be any less a champ today than in the 80's.

It's a bit like the Bradman discussion... would he be as good if he was playing now? The answer is yes. Maybe in a different way as things have changed, but the talent would always shine through.
All correct

Fitness of the modern group would run a 1980s group into the ground
 

Pessimistic

TheBrownDog
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I agree there was plenty of crap football back then, often with tiny crowds too.

Theres a good argument to say the best of those eras is as good as if not better than today.

But there has to be blame laid at the rule makers trying to engineer todays game.

Cant make up their minds if they want close games or high scoring. They want to speed it up/ slow it down, or slow it down to speed it up (or was it the other way round) Surely they can see they wont get both consistently?
 

NoobPie

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Only possible due to a miniscule ground. Is it just coincidence congestion seems to have reappeared since waverley was replaced by docklands?
I would say it is certainly a coincidence. The main reason congestion has increased is because teams are far more organised now and so can systematically deny their opponents space. Waverly hosted its last game half a decade before Neild craig was first successfully implementing 18 man zones (and probably just before "flooding" was becoming a thing
 

Wallaby

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Flooding has an interesting history. 'Stacking the backline' is a tactic (probably) as old as the game itself - but I can remember way back in the early 70s when it was only used to protect a lead in the last 5-10 minutes - or sometimes if there was a howling gale blowing to one end.

Eventually, someone realised that it was OK to stack the backline, but when you won possession, there wasn't much point in just bombing it back to the wing for the opposition to mount the next attack. So they developed tactics to bring the ball out of defense. This was the big change - because suddenly you realised that you had all this extra space to play with and develop an attack, rather than just thinking about scoring options when you got to the half-forward line. It also brought in the switch - prior to the late 80s, kicking across the backline was a cardinal sin - now it was used to find space. So why not flood all the time - because as well as stopping the opposition, it meant you could be more efficient with attacks. And half-back flankers who could kick became incredibly valuable as the 'quarterback'.

Of course, this meant that when your side won the ball in the back half, the opposition would immediately run back to their own defensive half to try and bottle up the play there - if they tried to just man up all over the ground, they would be picked to pieces. It only took one man to get free and away they went.

It's an on-going process. Now (last 5 years or so) there is a focus on forward pressure to prevent those attacks starting at all. Tactics evolve.
 

JD888

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I must admit that when I posted this yesterday I had only watched the second half. I watched the first half this morning and the skills and hardness at ball were certainly better. I also watched the first quarter of the 84 GF which was in contrast to my comments yesterday.

What were the interchange laws in those days?

Whilst I also tend to be in the camp of 2019 Suns easily overrunning the 86 Hawks, I think some of my remarks yesterday may have been uninformed on the basis of not taking into account player fatigue.

The games are on Kayo under AFL Classics. Someone else watch them and see what you think.
 
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Do the Dew

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Players back in the 70s and 80s had better skills - they were footballers first not athletes. Peter Mckenna was one of the best kicks for goal you would ever see - now you may as well toss a coin when they have a shot at goal yet unlike when Boof played they conditions are pristine, no mud, surfaces like bowling greens and barely a gust of wind and dont forget they are far better conditioned physically and have the luxury of being full time.

I grew up watching footy in the 70's and love the modern game. I dont have a romantic view but one that is objective when reflecting on the continual evolution of the game
Easier to be a better shot at goal when you stand in the forward line and don't do much else though. Players these days run like hell and then when they do have a set shot they're absolutely buggered. Heard this firsthand from a current AFL player. Watching the games, you really don't see how knackered these guys get
 

Do the Dew

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Sorry i just dont see the backbone in the current suns to produce that. Ironically their coach would be the most likely. One nice aspect of the 2008 grand final was stuart dews retro footy making a mockery of the modern zoning that both hawthorn and geelong were employing that day

I get the fitness and tactics comparison, comparing an average team from both eras is fairly clear. but to chose one of the worst clubs going around now to compare with an all time great team is just asking for embarrassment. Once the ‘surprise’ element is taken out of it, its not a great comparison
I'll give you another sport example. A tennis player ranked 500 in the world right now could go back in a time machine to the 80s and destroy the shit out of Johnny McEnroe. That's not taking anything away from McEnroe (or the 86 Hawks), it's just everything about athletes these days are better. You can guarantee in 2052 a garbage AFL team would likely beat 2019 Richmond. The only difference going forward is that there will be diminishing returns as everyone is full time and sports science doesn't have as far to go (compare to 1986-2019)
 

Pessimistic

TheBrownDog
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I must admit that when I posted this yesterday I had only watched the second half. I watched the first half this morning and the skills and hardness at ball were certainly better. I also watched the first quarter of the 84 GF which was in contrast to my comments yesterday.

What were the interchange laws in those days?

Whilst I also tend to be in the camp of 2019 Suns easily overrunning the 86 Hawks, I think some of my remarks yesterday may have been uninformed on the basis of not taking into account player fatigue.

The games are on Kayo under AFL Classics. Someone else watch them and see what you think.
KB reckons forcing player fatigue will improve skills. I reckon it belongs in the basket with trickle down economics
 

Pessimistic

TheBrownDog
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I'll give you another sport example. A tennis player ranked 500 in the world right now could go back in a time machine to the 80s and destroy the shit out of Johnny McEnroe. That's not taking anything away from McEnroe (or the 86 Hawks), it's just everything about athletes these days are better. You can guarantee in 2052 a garbage AFL team would likely beat 2019 Richmond. The only difference going forward is that there will be diminishing returns as everyone is full time and sports science doesn't have as far to go (compare to 1986-2019)
Borg destroyed mcenroe?
 

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