Review NAB Challenge Game 1 - Swans vs Port - Blacktown (4.40pm Saturday)

[doona]

Based on ONE, I repeat ONE pre season practice match? Excuse me while I wait for a sample size that is reliable and has some substance behind it before throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I have to add, McVeigh was coaching as well. He would have had guidance from assistances like Dew, but really, it was one pre season practice match like you said.

Just highlighting the point from the original poster you quoted.

 

[Jack2Jack]

Our game-plan is a bit stale but some perspective please. Besides Clarkson, which other Senior coach has actually proven themselves better than Horse? None?
Every coach is getting owned by Clarkson, most of them have struggled against them more than Horse. So who exactly are we going to get that's going to bring in better results? Which other coach has completely overhauled their original game-plans?
I can guarantee pretty much all teams, with the same senior coach, will be using a similar game-style to the ones they played last year. No coaches change their game-plans, they just try and evolve it to suit, even Clarkson, he just does it slightly better than the others (or maybe it's actually his players just execute the changes better).

Also it was NAB 1....Tippett rucked more than he was forward, Buddy played more midfield, Reid/Rohan/McGlynn didn't play. Let's at least see something close to resembling our true forward structure before we start saying nothing has changed. It probably hasn't, but our forward setup changed radically from 2012/2013 to 2014/2015 and now has again changed quite a bit over this off-season too...let's actually see it in action first.

Anyone expecting thinking our skills may have improved drastically over the off-season were always kidding themselves, if there has been improvement it will have been minor and will need to continue improving over the course of the season. Realistically it will take a few years when a few of the new guys come on before there is a major change in that area.
It's partly the reason we do slingshot, because we don't have the skills to hit targets lace out, it's why we've tried (a little unsuccessfully) to bring in speedy players to carry the ball so we don't have to move by foot and get exposed that way, it's why we do use handball trying to link up quite a bit (Horse knows the players a little better than people are giving him credit for).

 

[robbieando]

I have to add, McVeigh was coaching as well. He would have had guidance from assistances like Dew, but really, it was one pre season practice match like you said.

We've never applied the gameplan for season ahead in Game 1 of the NAB wake me up when its over, let alone gone at full pace. Its to try players out from the Reserves, players in new positions and let players get their first hit out of the season. Skills have always been shocking for Game 1.

To suggest that it means we haven't changed our gameplan, ever have or ever will in anyway is creative writing at best, crying wolf at worst.

I like what RW posted that we have always had a teams built around defensive pressure, going back to the second year of Paul Roos, to change that will expose our defence badly. That isn't changing, what we have to be looking at is overall ball use by foot, cutting the Handball to Kick ratio and quickly switching defence into attack by foot.

I personally don't think we currently have the players to pull off such a gameplan this year with kicks like Mitchell, Kennedy, Parker and Hannebury in the side but the focus of last years draft class on foot skills shows the coaches are going to be more focused in that area moving forward. So there will be change but slow change.

 

[kickthething]

Grundy slow
Talia ok
Rampe trying

Yep, on that performance he was very very trying....

 

[kickthething]

Anyone expecting thinking our skills may have improved drastically over the off-season were always kidding themselves, if there has been improvement it will have been minor and will need to continue improving over the course of the season. Realistically it will take a few years when a few of the new guys come on before there is a major change in that area.
It's partly the reason we do slingshot, because we don't have the skills to hit targets lace out, it's why we've tried (a little unsuccessfully) to bring in speedy players to carry the ball so we don't have to move by foot and get exposed that way, it's why we do use handball trying to link up quite a bit (Horse knows the players a little better than people are giving him credit for).

Why? Our skills last season were below par, a dramatic improvement is what was needed. I believe you can see a big improvement year to year, we should show that was well given our supposed focus over the off season. I know its one game in, but we were not flash, particularly coming out of defence. Our kick in success has been zip starting from the 14 GF and not improved, we simply have no clue how to get the ball in play and need to work on this as a matter of priority imo. No point having great defensive pressure which forces rushed kicks and behinds then have no clue how to take advantage of the possession we have earned.

 

[Jack2Jack]

Players who haven't been able to hit the side of a barn their whole careers aren't suddenly going to have changed all that in 6 months. It's why so many sides are targeting players with foot-skills because 80% of players foot-skills don't improve much. Our improvement needs to come from decision making, smart decision making masks poorer skills, it's probably the big difference the 2012 side and the 2015 side.
The core group still around have the same skills they had back then but compare the rest with their counterparts who were around back then. You wouldn't say O'keefe, Bolton, Mattner etc. had superior foot skills (far from it) but they knew what to try and do and when to do it, with and without the ball. A lot of the younger guys who have replaced them don't have the same understanding just yet. A big reason why we over possess far too often.

 

[robbieando]

Lets break down what's left of the 2012 team at our club

Defenders - Grundy (Solid as ever), T. Richards (on the slide), Nick Smith (I'm worried about his form over the last 18 months but still is at a high enough level) and Alex Johnson (Hasn't played since that day)
Midfielders - K. Jack (Form is hasn't been the same, maybe more time across half forward would benefit him), Hannebury (Elite player, kicking can let him down), McVeigh (Coming off a good season, needs to go to half back to help distribution), Kennedy (Elite player who gets the ball but use by foot is 50/50 at best) and Parker (Most improved clearly from 2012, kicking only question mark but can go forward and make an impact and a bull at the ball)
Forwards - Sam Reid (Has had plenty of games, just hasn't taken his chances for a prolonged period)

Now lets break down the 4 other players on our list the remain from 2012 but didn't play the 2012 GF

Mitchell - Held back because of fitness issues, has made a spot in the team. Has improved his link up play but is a player that needs to cut down on his handballing at the right times to benefit the side.
McGlynn - Missed because of injury and injured most of 2015. Nothing suggests he'll have a huge impact going forward.
Rohan - Shown flashes, but can't last out matches and can't settle in a role.
Cunningham - Poor start to 2015 before working into the season. Has shown he can kick a goal if isolated one on one forward but might be suited to a role across half back.

So from 2012 we have lost half our defence, but important from that part we have lost our run and distribution from their. Most of our forward line which was based on undersized tells in Reid and Goodes and resting mids to get Tippett then Buddy (with Tippett covering our loss in the rucks) and we also lost key experience in the midfield.

To say we have been a team in flux in an understatement. To have lost what we have and had two years without being able to trade or use free agency sets us further back than most want to admit. Last years trades cover what we wanted to two in 2014 and we will be trying to cover this year what we wanted to do last year while hoping Heeney, Mills and last years draft class bridge the gap.

We could be due a shock

 

[Punts]

Let's not forget that it's a coaching staff. Horse doesn't call all the shots, although he does have the final say. All of the lines coaches would have input so you'd have to back them in. They even done the hard yards themselves so would have a more in depth understanding of the game and the players than us arm chair specialists.

I've heard enough from pressers to understand that horse and the coaching team are aware of our challenges. It's alot harder to plan and implement than we give them credit for sometimes, myself included.

Horses pressers lol
Today we just didn't play an 18 man defence
We weren't hard enough and didn't win the ground ball
Rinse and repeat , I love the pressers

 

[GotTheGoodes]

Lets break down what's left of the 2012 team at our club

Defenders - Grundy (Solid as ever), T. Richards (on the slide), Nick Smith (I'm worried about his form over the last 18 months but still is at a high enough level) and Alex Johnson (Hasn't played since that day)
Midfielders - K. Jack (Form is hasn't been the same, maybe more time across half forward would benefit him), Hannebury (Elite player, kicking can let him down), McVeigh (Coming off a good season, needs to go to half back to help distribution), Kennedy (Elite player who gets the ball but use by foot is 50/50 at best) and Parker (Most improved clearly from 2012, kicking only question mark but can go forward and make an impact and a bull at the ball)
Forwards - Sam Reid (Has had plenty of games, just hasn't taken his chances for a prolonged period)

Now lets break down the 4 other players on our list the remain from 2012 but didn't play the 2012 GF

Mitchell - Held back because of fitness issues, has made a spot in the team. Has improved his link up play but is a player that needs to cut down on his handballing at the right times to benefit the side.
McGlynn - Missed because of injury and injured most of 2015. Nothing suggests he'll have a huge impact going forward.
Rohan - Shown flashes, but can't last out matches and can't settle in a role.
Cunningham - Poor start to 2015 before working into the season. Has shown he can kick a goal if isolated one on one forward but might be suited to a role across half back.

So from 2012 we have lost half our defence, but important from that part we have lost our run and distribution from their. Most of our forward line which was based on undersized tells in Reid and Goodes and resting mids to get Tippett then Buddy (with Tippett covering our loss in the rucks) and we also lost key experience in the midfield.

To say we have been a team in flux in an understatement. To have lost what we have and had two years without being able to trade or use free agency sets us further back than most want to admit. Last years trades cover what we wanted to two in 2014 and we will be trying to cover this year what we wanted to do last year while hoping Heeney, Mills and last years draft class bridge the gap.

We could be due a shock

I agree with you Robbie and I'd further your argument by highlighting the (I believe) massive loss of Malceski and Jetta in succession from that group the last two years. You don't know what you have until you don't have it anymore and not a truer word has been spoken with the loss of these blokes. Jetta in particular will be a big loss IMO. He was our link up, distribution machine. He had the best kick in the side and could open up space with his speed and agility. His role changed last year to a role that was less "flashy" and he was required to play more in the guts and through congestion while still managing to pinpoint a long kick (usually on the chest) of a teammate going into fwd 50.

There's no point looking at 2012. It's 2016. We've evolved and I believe the last few years has shown us to have a great group at the top who have managed to fend off all the retirements, player movements, trade bans, changes in AFL rules (COLA, Drafting etc) in their stride very well.

 

[RW]

I can only echo robbieando's comments above. I am more optimistic than most as IMO we still have enough quality in this list to see us through this period and I have a feeling that we will be contending again quite soon- no matter what your opinion of our coaching staff now, we are miles ahead of what we were before Roos- but my hope for this year is that no matter how the team performs, we can discuss each game on its merits and avoid reactionary posting if possible.

 

[PVF]

I'd be more interested in seeing our in game changes when things don't go our way instead of our gameplan which I think has been Horse's weakness as a coach in the past few seasons.

Obviously won't see that until the real stuff happens because wins don't matter in pre-season.

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

I can only echo robbieando's comments above. I am more optimistic than most as IMO we still have enough quality in this list to see us through this period and I have a feeling that we will be contending again quite soon- no matter what your opinion of our coaching staff now, we are miles ahead of what we were before Roos- but my hope for this year is that no matter how the team performs, we can discuss each game on its merits and avoid reactionary posting if possible.

Agreed i just dont think this team should be having difficulty kicking more than 9-10 goals a game with the amount of quality on the list, when you hear Gerald Healy being critical of the way Sydney plays there is something wrong.

Kicking scores of 60 and 51 in both finals is a coaching/style issue.

 

[PVF]

Agreed i just dont think this team should be having difficulty kicking more than 9-10 goals a game with the amount of quality on the list, when you hear Gerald Healy being critical of the way Sydney plays there is something wrong.

Kicking scores of 60 and 51 in both finals is a coaching/style issue.

To be fair, we had to rely on an aging Goodes in the finals up forward with Tippett as our number 1 ruck.

 

[MickyG]

...We could be due a shock

The amount of change of the list is extraordinary. I would not be surprised if we don't make the top 8. I will be surprised if we finish top 4.

 

[Wayne Swan]

Rewatched the game, skills were poor. The number of kicks, even short ones, that missed the target was alarming. Handballs to the receivers feet - sheesh, surely it's not that difficult.

Let's be honest, that was a SANFL side we played on Saturday and only because of that did we get away with such poor disposal and excessive handball. Hopefully it's just early season rust but we'd want to improve those skills quickly.

I'm forgiving the poor forward work and entries because we didn't have a properly structured forward line. Think we need to use Tippett as FF more and let Sinclair take more of the ruck work, he looks mobile and athletic plus Tippo has dodgy knees. Need Ried to step up this year to free up Buddy to roam at will in the fwd half. Also need some better more lively smalls/mid size fwds. Heeney is one, really need Rose to blossom and he got over hyped on the broadcast but Dawson looked a real footballer and adds a difference to the fwd structure.

Depth worries me, I think we are accumulating some list cloggers like BJ, Robinson, Hiscox. Those fringe types must step up. Talia looks ok with good disposal on Saturday, Towers looks to be cementing a spot, Jones should become a regular 22, Hewett I like (of course), Rohan needs to be given a role and left there as too much talent (and ND pick 6) to not make the grade.

The trade ban has really hurt us, just got to hope that our recruiting in 2014 & 2015 has had an above average haul to compensate. So not all doom and gloom but we need a charmed injury run on what we saw on Saturday.

 

[ponsdale]

but was donating platelets at the blood bank

 

[Wolftone]

Hiscox might snag a spot cos of his pace

Is gary rohan still alive?

Really? hiscox? He got 5 disposals and muffed every one of them. If he could learn how to kick he might just be valuable.

 

[Wolftone]

Rewatched the game, skills were poor. The number of kicks, even short ones, that missed the target was alarming. Handballs to the receivers feet - sheesh, surely it's not that difficult.

Let's be honest, that was a SANFL side we played on Saturday and only because of that did we get away with such poor disposal and excessive handball. Hopefully it's just early season rust but we'd want to improve those skills quickly.

I'm forgiving the poor forward work and entries because we didn't have a properly structured forward line. Think we need to use Tippett as FF more and let Sinclair take more of the ruck work, he looks mobile and athletic plus Tippo has dodgy knees. Need Ried to step up this year to free up Buddy to roam at will in the fwd half. Also need some better more lively smalls/mid size fwds. Heeney is one, really need Rose to blossom and he got over hyped on the broadcast but Dawson looked a real footballer and adds a difference to the fwd structure.

Depth worries me, I think we are accumulating some list cloggers like BJ, Robinson, Hiscox. Those fringe types must step up. Talia looks ok with good disposal on Saturday, Towers looks to be cementing a spot, Jones should become a regular 22, Hewett I like (of course), Rohan needs to be given a role and left there as too much talent (and ND pick 6) to not make the grade.

The trade ban has really hurt us, just got to hope that our recruiting in 2014 & 2015 has had an above average haul to compensate. So not all doom and gloom but we need a charmed injury run on what we saw on Saturday.

You didn't mention Marsh. 4 disposals, none to half time, let Nead run riot. Not up to this level. I think Robbo just had a bad day. He was good last year.

Sinclair is a waste of space up forward if he can't concentrate and kick goals. He dropped two easy marks that were gifted him by great kicking, yes I know it is a shock, great kicking i say it again.

the disposal and game plan are a worry for mine. Need to stop bombing stupidly to the forward line or we will end up losing more than most. I hope somebody comes up with a better game plan before the season start. I know you are stubborn horse but for *s sake start realising the long bomb is a waste of time and loses games against anybody good.

 

[Swansujelly]

it's one game, and a game to blow the cobwebs out more than anything. She'll be right guys.

 

[GoTheSwannies]

Horses pressers lol
Today we just didn't play an 18 man defence
We weren't hard enough and didn't win the ground ball
Rinse and repeat , I love the pressers

While I admit there are a lot of those types of cookie cutter responses. I've heard him mirror the sentiments we express on the swans board as well.

Fans sometimes think the coaching staff are oblivious to the deficiencies of our list or game plan. Which they're evidently not, because horse has mentioned our deficiencies, so he's aware of them.

The next point, fans often make sweeping statements and call for wholesale changes as a response to poor performances. In reality, it isn't a viable option. It's not fantasy footy. This is a real team, with dynamics.

The coaches see the players out on the training track, they see them compete in the reserves and closely monitor their performance and adherence to team structures and instructions. They're in the box seat to make the call on what changes are needed to improve the team and the capability of players who are on the cusp of best 22.

Fans sometimes think that making wholesale changes to bit parts of the team will have the desired effect. But the reality is, when you're talking about swapping out a handful of players at the tail end of our best 22, for players who are in the 23-30 mark, they are not going to have a significant impact on the overall performance of the team, and they're certainly not going to turn the team around from one week to the next.

 

[The King!]

Really? hiscox? He got 5 disposals and muffed every one of them. If he could learn how to kick he might just be valuable.

Skills are a pre requisite for selection now?

 

[RUNVS]

What is the disposal efficiency of other on ballers as I have noticed that guys like Parker, Kennedy, Mitchell and Hannebery often have disposal efficiencies in the high 50's or low 60's which seems really poor to me, even for an on baller.

 

[Punts]

Did Parker hit a target on the weekend by foot seriously ?
Tough as nails and racks them up by geez his field kicking is bad

 

[Wolftone]

What we need to get rid of;

1. Backward handball. It always gets us into trouble. What is the matter with handballing forward for *s sake.

2. Backward across goal kicking. Oh dear another three picked off aturday. Dangerous and bloody stupid.

3. Inferior kicking skills and handballing to the ground. Our disposal skills stink. Need to get far better. If the players can't seem to get it right in the allotted time then invite them to come out and practice on their spare time. To be terrible at your job is not an option.

4. Really terrible game plan. What game plan you ask? Um... Yes the one that says here is the forward line just bomb it in and the talls will do the rest and if they don't wee crumb and kick goals. Trouble is it doesn't go like that 70% of the time. What happens is the opposition puts one or two spares back, they pick it off and set up rebound footy. The backward handball especially in the backline. Are you really serious Longmire?

5. Slow reaction to problems in getting the ball out of defence. For crying out loud do something different than kicking to the side, then handballing back. Everyone knows just what is going to happen and they set up for it. Port did. They picked us off a few times and should have picked us off a few more if it weren't for some great play from a few individuals like Lukie, Reg, Laids and Lloydie.

6. Ramps' brain fades in the third. Happens about the same time every game. Third quarter about 5-10 minutes in. maybe his horse loes a race at this time every week LOL. But he needs to be better. In fact the backline as a unit sometimes suffer this brain fade. Smithy, Laids, Reg, Teddy, Macca all did last year.

 

[RUNVS]

Disposal efficiency in 2015

71st - Grundy
74th - Jones
111th - Laidler
127th - McVeigh
147th - Rampe
159th - Cunnginham
175th - Smith
229th - Richards
279th - Reid
307th - Lloyd
339th - Heeney
340th - Jack
374th - Hannebery
380th - Mitchell
380th - Towers
410th - Tippett
479th - Rohan
501st - Parker
580th - Kennedy
635th - Franklin


665 players played in 2015.

So there are 70 players in the AFL who have better disposal efficiencies than our best, and look at where the big disposal getters in our team are, players like Jack, Hannebery, Mitchell, Parker and Kennedy, all of who are ranked 340th in the AFL or worse.