Rate the coaches

[Richo83]

My meaning is more that people seem to base their opinion of coaches off the last 12 months, rather than taking into account all available empirical evidence. Their opinion isn’t really changing to accomodate new data, it’s just narrow and reactive to recent events (a feature which seems to underpin how bigfooty groupthink on this board operates on most topics).

It’s at least in part why Ross Lyon, who is clearly a great coach, is undervalued.

It’s why the OP who was arguing Chris Scott was rubbish in another thread only 12 months ago (!) has him as the best coach in the AFL in this one.

Hardwick has undergone a Damascus conversion though, so he's not really the best example. Sure, bigfooty can be knee jerk, but their change of opinion is justified in this case.

As for Lyon, I can't speak for others, but personally, I've been saying for a while that his style of football doesn't stand up well in finals. He's a good coach if you want to grind out victories in the home and away season, but doesn't have the attacking mindset to win games in the finals. As I consider the finals to be a true test of a coach's quality, I can't rate Lyon that highly. I know people like to call the saints unlucky, but good sides don't have to rely on luck in the first place.

The OP is not a great poster and should be ignored whenever possible.

 

[scoman]

Dew is undefeated so surely has to be 1st...

Hasnt won a game yet the plonker..... Delist

 

[Crankyhawk]

Really? Clarkson won 4 flags as a coach, how many flags did he win as a player? He did win a flag or 2 as Central Districts coach in the SANFL. Paul Roos won a flag as a swans coach in 2005. Did he win one as a player with Fitzroy or Sydney?

Pagan won 2 flags with North in 1996 and 1999, he didn't win a flag as a player. He did win 4 or 5 as a Reserves coach.

Typical arrogant Hawks post right here. I assume that was a backhanded comment about Ross Lyon. Name the last team to make finals winning less than half of their 22 games?

You do need a "winning percentage" to make finals I think

More likely a backhander about Chris Scott, given the OP.

 

[Ricky Vaughn]

It’s why the OP who was arguing Chris Scott was rubbish in another thread only 12 months ago (!) has him as the best coach in the AFL in this one.

It's almost as if he was a troll...

 

[Wolfgang West]

Gregg Popovich

That's debatable the way he has tanked the s**t out of the second part of their schedule and the ducks and drakes with Leonard. Senility starting to set in.

 

[Sttew]

The Scott twins are criminally over rated, even more so Chris

Statistics don't lie. He is not No.1 but Chris Scott has taken a team in transition into finals every year bar one. Have you ever stopped and wondered how hard it is to finish top 4?

 

[wal]

Statistics don't lie. He is not No.1 but Chris Scott has taken a team in transition into finals every year bar one. Have you ever stopped and wondered how hard it is to finish top 4?

Yes but what is his record in finals that aren't played at the cheat ground?
Actually you can include finals at the cheat ground

 

[Gralin]

Statistics don't lie. He is not No.1 but Chris Scott has taken a team in transition into finals every year bar one. Have you ever stopped and wondered how hard it is to finish top 4?

Scott was from memory a couple of years ago listed as hardest to coach against by his peers which is obviously worth something. The question with him is around everything else, he won a flag in his first year with a squad that had been there before, he hasn't been back to the grand final since, he's been close but the question is whether he can get there with a team he built himself

has another chance this year but it's been 6 years since he made a grand final, he'd want to get past the prelim soon

 

[gordo2016]

Alastair Clarkson
Ross Lyon
Chris Scott
John Longmire
Beveridge
Pyke
Adam simpson
Brad Scott
Dimmaaaaaaaaa
Hinkley
Woosha
Cameron
The ones i cant remember
Nathan Buckley

Adam Simpson before Dimma. Laughable.

 

[Freomaniac]

Jesus H. If BF confined itself to people who know their topic.

For coaches it's clearly
1 Clarkson
2 Longmire, C. Scott
3 Bevo, Woosha
4 Lyon, Dimma

.
.
.
.
THe rest



Most of the rest have only coached for two or three seasons, except for Bucks, who is kind of in the same place Dimma was a year ago. Amazing what one good season could do for a rep.
But you can't rate coaches on 60 or 70 games.

Lyon had a great record, but he seems not to have grasped the rebuilding concept. And he did have a fabulous list at the Saints.

I had to bold and Underlined that bit about Ross Lyon. I hope you are not judging freo only on that 104 point loss to your mob. Freo played some youth last year Now freo hasn't had a direct replacement for Pav. We have found Our Sandilands replacement in Sean Darcy who is 203cm and 110kg. He is from the geelong under 18s and ironically his debut game was against geelong in geelong. He got 38 hitouts and 14 disposals In his debut game. He bet Todd Golstein 34 hitouts to 31 when freo beat North a few weeks later.

Alex Pearce is a gun a 200 cm and 90 kg CHB, He has taken Zac Dawsons spot. Brennan cox is 193 cm and 90 kg and plays the Harry Taylor role. Griffen Logue and Ryan Nyhuis had good debut games last year too. Yeah Ross Lyon has played no youth.

 

[gangsta deluxe]

Hardwick has undergone a Damascus conversion though, so he's not really the best example. Sure, bigfooty can be knee jerk, but their change of opinion is justified in this case.

As for Lyon, I can't speak for others, but personally, I've been saying for a while that his style of football doesn't stand up well in finals. He's a good coach if you want to grind out victories in the home and away season, but doesn't have the attacking mindset to win games in the finals. As I consider the finals to be a true test of a coach's quality, I can't rate Lyon that highly. I know people like to call the saints unlucky, but good sides don't have to rely on luck in the first place.

The OP is not a great poster and should be ignored whenever possible.

My issue with Hardwick is not that he’s rated highly, it’s that he wasn’t and that people didn’t even consider the number factors before last year that show he is a good coach, using two obvious examples:

1. Finals in three consecutive years
2. Pulling you out of the quagmire you were in so effectively (look at other clubs coming from that base, it isn’t easy)

Neither of these things play a role in most people’s assessment of him on here, but rather “hurr durr premiership” seems to be the main factor.

 

[beema limapep]

Statistics don't lie. He is not No.1 but Chris Scott has taken a team in transition into finals every year bar one. Have you ever stopped and wondered how hard it is to finish top 4?

when top 4 is your relentless and unforgiving ceiling for the last 6 or so years i guess you would believe that its hard.

 

[Big Blood]

I had to bold and Underlined that bit about Ross Lyon. I hope you are not judging freo only on that 104 point loss to your mob. Freo played some youth last year Now freo hasn't had a direct replacement for Pav. We have found Our Sandilands replacement in Sean Darcy who is 203cm and 110kg. He is from the geelong under 18s and ironically his debut game was against geelong in geelong. He got 38 hitouts and 14 disposals In his debut game. He bet Todd Golstein 34 hitouts to 31 when freo beat North a few weeks later.

Alex Pearce is a gun a 200 cm and 90 kg CHB, He has taken Zac Dawsons spot. Brennan cox is 193 cm and 90 kg and plays the Harry Taylor role. Griffen Logue and Ryan Nyhuis had good debut games last year too. Yeah Ross Lyon has played no youth.

I was really thinking how he left the Saints without restocking and did the same at Freo (except without leaving). NOW he's rebuilding but the challenge is to renew your list even when you're at the top, not wait until your top players have retired. This year will be good test of Lyon the rebuilder.

 

[donbooger]

Good way to tell is to check that teams bigfooty board after the team loses and check how many posts have been added to the ongoing sack the coach thread.

I know our Chris Scott thread gets a flogging each time so he can't be that good. Couldn't find a Clarkson one on the Hawks board, would be interested to read one if someone ever started one there. So Clarkson and Dew must be the best coaches in the league by my extremely eccentric method.

 

[Sttew]

when top 4 is your relentless and unforgiving ceiling for the last 6 or so years i guess you would believe that its hard.

Of course you don’t want that to be the case, but prior to 2017 Richmond supporters would have only dreamt of a top 4 finish in this generation

 

[TiggerMan22]

Probably with bias but it has to be Clarkson and comfortable at this stage.
- 4 flags obviously
- built a list from a rabble to a flag within 4 seasons
-lost arguably the games best player ( Franklin ) yet still was able to take out the next two flags
I think he is the one guy who could coach any of the other clubs and make them a better side

The rest can all coach in some capacity but Clarkson ticks every box

Winning % can be completely misleading , a coach who takes over a cellar dweller for a rebuild is naturally going to take a pretty large hit in that department for a few seasons

Not even biased. By far the best coach.

 

[TiggerMan22]

Of course you don’t want that to be the case, but prior to 2017 Richmond supporters would have only dreamt of a top 4 finish in this generation

2 points off top 4 in 2013. 4 points off top 4 in 2015.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Good way to tell is to check that teams bigfooty board after the team loses and check how many posts have been added to the ongoing sack the coach thread.

I know our Chris Scott thread gets a flogging each time so he can't be that good. Couldn't find a Clarkson one on the Hawks board, would be interested to read one if someone ever started one there. So Clarkson and Dew must be the best coaches in the league by my extremely eccentric method.

We have a "in clarkson we trust" thread; we dont have a "clarko where is he at" (and we had one for hodge)

 

[Captivating]

We have a "in clarkson we trust" thread; we dont have a "clarko where is he at" (and we had one for hodge)

Give it time. Stumble this year and the Sack Clarkson thread makes an appearance. Nothing surer.

 

[Freomaniac]

I was really thinking how he left the Saints without restocking and did the same at Freo (except without leaving). NOW he's rebuilding but the challenge is to renew your list even when you're at the top, not wait until your top players have retired. This year will be good test of Lyon the rebuilder.

You know what, I can talk about when freo were in the top of the ladder in 2015 when guys like Matt Deboer and Nick Suban were player over younger talent in Connor Blakely and Lachie weller and Ed Langdon. When you are in the top 4 or top 6, You are definitely not going to throw 3-4 rookies in your 22 in the same game unless you have injuries.

Looking at Ross Lyons youth policy at the saints from 2007-2011, Specifically from 2007 drafts and trade period until 2010. Yet Lets compare that the crows of 2007-10 where the crows had the legendary Matt Rendell as their Main recruiting scout. I think the results are.... Interesting.

2007 Draft;
Pick 9: Ben McEvoy
Pick 42: Jack Steven
Pick 57: Fraser Gherig


Traded pick 26 to the swans and got sean Dempster and Adam Schnider
Traded pick 90 for Steven King and Charlie Gardiner

2008 draft:
Pick 13: tom Lynch (the one that got traded to the crows)
Pick 47: Rhys Stanley
Pick 48: Nicholas Heyne
Pick 62: Alistair Smith
Pick 74: Paul Cahill
Pick 83:Colm Begley

traded pick 31 to the dogs for farren ray and pick 48

The best player the saints got in that rookie draft?
The legendary Zac Dawson

2009 Draft:
Pick 32 Nicolas winmar
Pick 62: Jesse Smith
Pick 64: Adam Pattison
Pick 77: will Johnson

traded pick 16 to Essendon for Andrew Lovett
Traded pick 48 to freo for Brett Peake

:2010 Draft
Pick 24 Jamie Cripps
Pick 43: Sam Crocker
Pick 59: Tom ledger
Pick 75: Arryn Sipross
Pick 90: Ryan Gamble
Pick 103: Dean Polo
Pick 111: Tom Simpkin (rookie elevation)




now lets compare that to the crows.

2007 draft:
Pick 10: Patrick Dangerfield
Pick 28: Andy otten
pick 30: Jarman Jacky
Pick 38: Mike Cook
Pick 71: Aaron kite
Pick 75: Taylor Walker

Traded Matin Matttner to Sydney, got pick 28
Traded John Meesen got pick 37
Traded Brad Moran to North got pick 37
Traded Brad Symes to Port got pick 28
Traded Ben Hudson and Pick 43 to Bulldogs got picks 30 and 38

Crows then got Jared Petrenko and Brodie Martin in the rookie list.

2008 draft:
Pick 10: Phil Davis
Pick 28: Shaun McKernan
Pick 44: Rory Sloane
Pick 60: Tom Lee
Pick 72: Will young

2009 Draft:
Pick 13: Daniel Talia
Pick 29: Jack Gunston
Pick 45: Sam Shaw
Pick 61: James Craig
Pick 77: Broadie Martin (promoted rookie)


2010 Draft:
Pick 14: Broadie Smith
pick 61: jarryd lyons
Pick 82: Ricky Henderson (Promoted rookie)
Pick 97: Matt Jansch (Promoted rookie)

Traded picks 34 and 67 to Carlton for Sam Jacobs.
Traded end of 1st round compo and pick 51 to richmond for Richard Tambling
Traded Jonathan Griffin to freo for pick 61


Now I can Admit, one thing, Saints didn't have access to early picks from 2008-2010 as they made a prelim in 2008 and made grand finals in 2009 and 2010. However, Crows made finals from 2007-9 but finished between 5th to 8th on the ladder in those years. Saying that, The crows have gotten better players with their late picks compared to saints.

Saying that, Patrick Dangerfield, Andy Otten, Taylor Walker, Rory Sloane, Jack Gunston, Ricky Henderson could of all been taken by the saint when they had the chance. Sad thing is, All these blokes would of been in the saints best 22 right now.


Now people Bag out Ross Lyon for not playing youth. Yet people don't bag out the recruiters for the saints around 2007-2010 for choosing poor players.

 

[Big Blood]

You know what, I can talk about when freo were in the top of the ladder in 2015 when guys like Matt Deboer and Nick Suban were player over younger talent in Connor Blakely and Lachie weller and Ed Langdon. When you are in the top 4 or top 6, You are definitely not going to throw 3-4 rookies in your 22 in the same game unless you have injuries.

Yes you are. The good clubs have shown it's possible to restructure and still hold their place at or near the top.

Maybe Lyon was let down by recruiters but it's a remarkable coincidence that twice his top-performing teams have crashed to almost the bottom of the ladder.

 

[The King!]

Clarkson

Massive gap
Hardwick maybe
Pick whoever

 

[The King!]

Gordon Bombay
Mr Miyagi

Daylight

Tony D Amato underrated mate

 

[Moral Decay]

3 pages in ant not one saint doing their rankings on how Richardson fares against the other coaches

Me personally, I'd rate Clarko first then every one else then Buckley at the bottom.
The coach while important isn't the only thing that defines a clubs success, list age, and demographics, recruiting, medical, CEO, president, all the assistant coaches etc, etc.
While Clarko is the most obviously successful, I'd say the input of Jason Dunstall was just as important.
Buckley rates the worst not just because he's had diminishing returns every year but because he's had the backing of the President and board, and seemingly got all that he has asked for.

Whoever wants to rate all the coaches would have to have a phenomenal inside knowledge of the inner workings every club, and a profound understanding of not just how each coach functions within that structure but how the club and the coach should be functioning. That's way beyond my limited knowledge.

 

[Catsnlakers]

Clarko, Lyon, Longmire, Pyke

Throw a blanket over the rest

Brad Scott

Lyon & Pyke seem to be missing something that all of C.Scott, Beveridge & Hardwick have...... So in no way are they even top 5!