Round 1, 2021

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ringa5

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I think you are indeed in cinderella land if you think JUH is going to get a game ahead of Bruce...and aren't they pretty much the same height anyway?
If He proves he can in the pre season why not??Naughton played against Men before his first season,l realise whereas Jamarra played hardly any football.Otherwise if he is good and ready enough play him l reckon..
 

LondonBulldog

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I think you are indeed in cinderella land if you think JUH is going to get a game ahead of Bruce...and aren't they pretty much the same height anyway?
I don't think he is going to play round 1, but I would love to see him play. Cinderella story was a reference to the movie Caddy Shack.
 

LondonBulldog

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I disagree that the games gone smaller, I think you can’t carry a sh*t tall for the sake of being tall anymore but if you’ve got quality talls you need them littered all over the field imo. More important than ever with the way the games gone, if you’ve got blokes that can take contested marks through the middle, up forward and down back they’re worth their weight in gold. I think we’ve got a good mix of talls that can all play together now and offer something other than just being tall. Agreed down back Keath and Cordy should be our set up but up forward I want to stretch teams. They need to be versatile though, Bruce or Naughty need to be strong options through the middle of the ground. English needs to drop back and forward to cover holes/stretch the oppo. Martins really the only one who should be locked into a role. I’m sick of getting Absolutey anihilated in the air, we need to play the right amount of quality talls to allow our smalls to dominate the ground, because the way we’ve been setting up we’ve given them no hope.
From the AFL listed Grand final teams.
Richmond: Lynch and Riewoldt and a bunch of runners.
Geelong: Hawkins and a bunch of runners.



 

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Mofra

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From the AFL listed Grand final teams.
Richmond: Lynch and Riewoldt and a bunch of runners.
Geelong: Hawkins and a bunch of runners.



West Coast played three in 2018 - Vardy, Kennedy, Darling.
GWS (I know I know) also played three in 2019 (Cameron, Finlayson, Himmelberg).

We just don't have a swarm of small pressure forwards so we need to play the best personnel we have rather than follow another team's blueprint.
 

Virgin Dog

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From the AFL listed Grand final teams.
Richmond: Lynch and Riewoldt and a bunch of runners.
Geelong: Hawkins and a bunch of runners.



West Coast are a finals side and run with Kennedy, Darling and Allen
Geelong are moving toward having Hawkins and Cameron
Richmond have Riewoldt and Lynch
Brisbane were using an extra ruck (McInerney/Martin), Hipwood and McStay up forward

West Coast also use McGovern, Barrass, Hurn and (when fit) Rotham, which is a very tall defence
Collingwood tend to run with Roughead, Moore and Crisp (1.9m)
Richmond use Grimes, Balta and Astbury
Brisbane use Gardiner, Lester and Andrews

Us going with Keath, Gardner and Cordy is no taller than what the successful finalists of the last few years have been using. Same with our forward line of Naughton and Bruce.
 

Virgin Dog

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So how much should we read into Bevo's comments last year about there likely being around 6 changes to the side for Round 1? That would suggest a lot of players in and out that we wouldn't otherwise have expected.

The first 4 changes are pretty easy for me to make:
IN: Vandermeer, Martin, Treloar, Jong
OUT: Wood, Lipinski, R. Smith, Cordy

The next two are difficult to pick out. On form, it should be Richards and Bruce as the next two, but they were given infinite chances by Bevo last year so it seems he's pushing forward with these two in the side regardless.
 

doggies ftw

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So how much should we read into Bevo's comments last year about there likely being around 6 changes to the side for Round 1? That would suggest a lot of players in and out that we wouldn't otherwise have expected.

The first 4 changes are pretty easy for me to make:
IN: Vandermeer, Martin, Treloar, Jong
OUT: Wood, Lipinski, R. Smith, Cordy

The next two are difficult to pick out. On form, it should be Richards and Bruce as the next two, but they were given infinite chances by Bevo last year so it seems he's pushing forward with these two in the side regardless.
You really sold on Gardner over Cordy? Cordys not amazing and Gardner maybe has some attributes that could possibly see him overtake him down the track but right now there’s not a single part of the game that Gardner has Cordy covered in
 

doggies ftw

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From the AFL listed Grand final teams.
Richmond: Lynch and Riewoldt and a bunch of runners.
Geelong: Hawkins and a bunch of runners.



Tigs when fit quite regularly went with Soldo/Nank, Chol, Riewoldt & Lynch with Asthury, Balta & Grimes down back.

Geelong play a huge amount of versatile talls like Blicavs, Stanle, Henderson etc and have gone out and brought in Cameron.

pretty much all the top 10 teams go with a 1 ruck, 2KPf & 1 utility/3rd tall/2nd ruck set up. If anything Martin, English, Naughty & 1 of Bruce/Schache/JUH will be way more mobile and athletic than most teams set ups.

I agree we play better undersized in defence though
 

Virgin Dog

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You really sold on Gardner over Cordy? Cordys not amazing and Gardner maybe has some attributes that could possibly see him overtake him down the track but right now there’s not a single part of the game that Gardner has Cordy covered in
I'm not sold on either, and don't have any confidence going into games that they're actually going to have much of a positive impact. The main difference for me is that Gardner's ceiling appears to be higher, and he improved a lot over the course of a couple months of footy in 2020, whereas Cordy appears to have largely plateaued. I don't necessarily view 2021 as "our" season in terms of finals competitiveness, so I'd like to see us work with guys like Gardner and Young over sticking with Cordy as I feel they have potential to be better players for 2022.

I would argue Gardner is a far better kick from a skill perspective. There was a perception last year that Gardner was a poor kick because he made poor decisions leading to turnovers, and in the early stages of the season his nerves really took hold. From a skill execution perspective, I'd trust Gardner with kicking over Cordy. He also has a significantly higher reach thanks to being taller and having a far bigger leap. Twice last year he actually blocked the ball as the man on the mark - even once is a fairly rare event yet Gardner managed it twice. In terms of pure leg speed, Gardner has Cordy covered too.

Biggest difference between them as it stands is that Cordy appears to be more aggressive, and much more confident. I'd hope that when Gardner builds his confidence, he would quite rapidly overtake Cordy, which is why I prefer him in the Round 1 side.
 

doggies ftw

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I'm not sold on either, and don't have any confidence going into games that they're actually going to have much of a positive impact. The main difference for me is that Gardner's ceiling appears to be higher, and he improved a lot over the course of a couple months of footy in 2020, whereas Cordy appears to have largely plateaued. I don't necessarily view 2021 as "our" season in terms of finals competitiveness, so I'd like to see us work with guys like Gardner and Young over sticking with Cordy as I feel they have potential to be better players for 2022.

I would argue Gardner is a far better kick from a skill perspective. There was a perception last year that Gardner was a poor kick because he made poor decisions leading to turnovers, and in the early stages of the season his nerves really took hold. From a skill execution perspective, I'd trust Gardner with kicking over Cordy. He also has a significantly higher reach thanks to being taller and having a far bigger leap. Twice last year he actually blocked the ball as the man on the mark - even once is a fairly rare event yet Gardner managed it twice. In terms of pure leg speed, Gardner has Cordy covered too.

Biggest difference between them as it stands is that Cordy appears to be more aggressive, and much more confident. I'd hope that when Gardner builds his confidence, he would quite rapidly overtake Cordy, which is why I prefer him in the Round 1 side.
Fair enough, I think we’re on completely different pages regarding these two guys so probably not worth going into it too much. But aside from some physical attributes that he hasn’t even learnt to take advantage of yet I don’t see how Gardner has more upside, both guys will play out the season as 24 year olds it’s not like Gardners 19. Cordy has runs on the board as to being a capable AFL player over the past 5 years whereas Gardners played maybe a handful of semi passable games.

Technically Gardner might be a better and longer kick but Cordy takes the game on and actually picks out attacking my options, for the most part he uses the ball really well but the odd Miskick makes people think badly of his skills I think. I’m taking the ball in a Cordy a hands every day of the week over Gardner.

Gardner might pip him for leg speed on the training track but he lumbers around a footy field, he has absolutely no idea how to read the play, it’s not like he’s new to the game he’a turning 24 if he hasn’t picked up those natural instincts by now he never will. So while he might be quicker, Cordy gets in better positions quicker because he actually has some instincts on what the next step ahead might be whereas Gardner is too focused on his man which is why he gives away a huge amount of frees against.

Cordys better one on one, takes more marks, provides more defensive pressure, when it was just Keath andCordy for most of last year we never had a tall get a hold on them and kick more than 2 or3. They’ve got the runs on the board, cannot say the same of Gardner.

They might both be in the team round 1 but I’d say there’s Absolutey zero chance Ryan’s in and Cordys not, nor should there be.

I dunno I find it a bit funny how everyone seems to claim that Gardner’s extreme lack of composure, nerves/performance anxiety (throwing up before games etc) is some massive upside that he can magically fix, he might improve in that regards but it more than likely won’t, and even if it does I doubt to the extent that he’ll ever be a comfortable AFL player. Nothing against the guy he’s gone a hell of a lot further than I have but geez it’s not exactly the type of attribute you want in a guy playing the highest pressure position on the field, is that who we want in the dying stages of a tight game holding down the defence?

Give me the lesser talented bloke who actually wants to be there in the big moments and wants the ball in his hands (Cordy) any day of the week tbh
 
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Dannnnnnnnnn

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You really sold on Gardner over Cordy? Cordys not amazing and Gardner maybe has some attributes that could possibly see him overtake him down the track but right now there’s not a single part of the game that Gardner has Cordy covered in
My opinion only, obviously: Cordy should never play #2 KPD again. His form was directly correlated with his position in the team - his sh*t games came as #2 KPD, his good games came playing smaller and with more freedom.

Gardner has not been good but we just cannot ******* go back to playing undersized. It destabilises our entire system and forces us to play overly defensive up-field.

I will take Gardner a million times over running with Keath and Cordy.
 

doggies ftw

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My opinion only, obviously: Cordy should never play #2 KPD again. His form was directly correlated with his position in the team - his sh*t games came as #2 KPD, his good games came playing smaller and with more freedom.

Gardner has not been good but we just cannot ******* go back to playing undersized. It destabilises our entire system and forces us to play overly defensive up-field.

I will take Gardner a million times over running with Keath and Cordy.
Ideally Cordy plays as third tall but I don’t think we can go in with both Gardner and Cordy in the same backline, you can’t be locking up two defensive spots on those types in the modern game. I’m not sure that’s true that Cordy always plays sh*t as 2nd KPD, I think our back lines looked much more at ease playing undersized and to our strengths over the past two years. Cordy & Keath had things completely under control last year with the only time a tall kicked more than 2 against them was when McKay kicked 3 when we got absolutely anhiliated all across the ground.

If young can come good and offer an intercepting threat then great play the 3 talls but imo if that doesn’t happen our best set up is Keath, Cordy and our elite mediums + English dropping back and Naughty in an emergency.
 

Mofra

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My opinion only, obviously: Cordy should never play #2 KPD again. His form was directly correlated with his position in the team - his sh*t games came as #2 KPD, his good games came playing smaller and with more freedom.
Arguably, Cordy's best game of the last year and a bit was the GWS final when he blanketed Cameron, but for the most part I agree.
The problem is Cordy does indeed appear to play better as the 'third option' - and so does Crozier, and Wood, and I'd argue Keath too who was an excellent intercept defender until he became a legit KPD with us.

Now consider how we'd look if we didn't get the Keath deal over the line :oops:
 

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Dannnnnnnnnn

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Ideally Cordy plays as third tall but I don’t think we can go in with both Gardner and Cordy in the same backline, you can’t be locking up two defensive spots on those types in the modern game. I’m not sure that’s true that Cordy always plays sh*t as 2nd KPD, I think our back lines looked much more at ease playing undersized and to our strengths over the past two years. Cordy & Keath had things completely under control last year with the only time a tall kicked more than 2 against them was when McKay kicked 3 when we got absolutely anhiliated all across the ground.

If young can come good and offer an intercepting threat then great play the 3 talls but imo if that doesn’t happen our best set up is Keath, Cordy and our elite mediums + English dropping back and Naughty in an emergency.
I see it a little bit differently. I don't have an issue with Gardner and Cordy playing together - I have an issue with Cordy, Wood, Crozier, and Duryea playing together. Realistically (and unfortunately) I think Keath, Gardner and Young are vying for two spots, and Cordy, Wood, Crozier, and Duryea are vying for two, maybe three at a stretch.

Sadly I have no confidence in Young, which leaves us with Gardner.
 

Mofra

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I see it a little bit differently. I don't have an issue with Gardner and Cordy playing together - I have an issue with Cordy, Wood, Crozier, and Duryea playing together. Realistically (and unfortunately) I think Keath, Gardner and Young are vying for two spots, and Cordy, Wood, Crozier, and Duryea are vying for two, maybe three at a stretch.

Sadly I have no confidence in Young, which leaves us with Gardner.
Duryea is our best (only ?) smaller lockdown defender.
I see him as a different "type" to Wood, Cordy and Crozier - and the pragmatist in me only has Crozier as a lock in our defensive group out of those three players.
 

Virgin Dog

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I see it a little bit differently. I don't have an issue with Gardner and Cordy playing together - I have an issue with Cordy, Wood, Crozier, and Duryea playing together. Realistically (and unfortunately) I think Keath, Gardner and Young are vying for two spots, and Cordy, Wood, Crozier, and Duryea are vying for two, maybe three at a stretch.

Sadly I have no confidence in Young, which leaves us with Gardner.
I said pretty much exactly this the other day - we can't be running all of Williams, Crozier, Wood and Cordy in the same side. If we put Duryea in that group, I'm picking Williams, Crozier and Duryea every day of the week, then it's a toss up between Wood and Cordy depending on team needs that week.

Agree with Keath, Gardner and Young vying for the two spots - at this stage, it's an easy choice of Keath and Gardner for me. I'd like to see Young make it, but I just don't have much confidence in him at this stage, which says a lot considering I'm picking Gardner ahead of him.
 

doggies ftw

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I see it a little bit differently. I don't have an issue with Gardner and Cordy playing together - I have an issue with Cordy, Wood, Crozier, and Duryea playing together. Realistically (and unfortunately) I think Keath, Gardner and Young are vying for two spots, and Cordy, Wood, Crozier, and Duryea are vying for two, maybe three at a stretch.

Sadly I have no confidence in Young, which leaves us with Gardner.
Agree that the log jam of mediums is probably doing us no favours, I think the worst our backline was last year was when we played Keath, Cordy, Gardner, Wood and Dureya together. Ideally I’d be going with 1 or both of Keath/Young if Young can come on, 1 of Cordy/Gardner, 2 of Croz/Wood/Dureya and 2 rebounders in Daniel & Williams as our main 7. Or if we only play 1 of Keath/Young then Williams plays taller and we go with Daniel/JJ as our main rebounders
 

Kennel Master

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This is a great discussion about Gardiner v. Cordy.

Gardiner is still new to the caper but has shown improvement. Still has some way to go. Hopefully a big off season will see results.
Cordy has always shown effort, grunt, and determination which have helped him play a variety of roles.
Neither are great 1-on-1 against bigger forwards. We need Crozier, Wood and Williams being third man up.

At the moment Cordy offers a bit more flexibility than Gardiner, but Gardiner will certainly get opportunities.

Personally I would like to see Naughton at CHB but that doesn't seem likely.

KM
 

Dannnnnnnnnn

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Duryea is our best (only ?) smaller lockdown defender.
I see him as a different "type" to Wood, Cordy and Crozier - and the pragmatist in me only has Crozier as a lock in our defensive group out of those three players.
It's not so much about type as it is role for me. I split the group as Keath/Gardner/Young vs Cordy/Crozier/Wood/Duryea because I see the first group as taking KPFs and the second group as ideally playing hybrid, general defender roles. The latter group aren't inherently defensive players, but we can't rely on them for a high volume of offensive drive. Their styles are different, but we become unbalanced with too many of them because our offensive drive is too easily shut down with only Daniel and Williams alongside them.
 

willofwest

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It's not so much about type as it is role for me. I split the group as Keath/Gardner/Young vs Cordy/Crozier/Wood/Duryea because I see the first group as taking KPFs and the second group as ideally playing hybrid, general defender roles. The latter group aren't inherently defensive players, but we can't rely on them for a high volume of offensive drive. Their styles are different, but we become unbalanced with too many of them because our offensive drive is too easily shut down with only Daniel and Williams alongside them.
Agree with all this, but I see it as contest between Cordy and Wood. Crozier for mine is a lock with Daniel and Williams. Cordy & wood gives 3rd tall/ medium match up. I do hope that Young steps up this year.
 

Northernsoul74

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This is a great discussion about Gardiner v. Cordy.

Gardiner is still new to the caper but has shown improvement. Still has some way to go. Hopefully a big off season will see results.
Cordy has always shown effort, grunt, and determination which have helped him play a variety of roles.
Neither are great 1-on-1 against bigger forwards. We need Crozier, Wood and Williams being third man up.

At the moment Cordy offers a bit more flexibility than Gardiner, but Gardiner will certainly get opportunities.

Personally I would like to see Naughton at CHB but that doesn't seem likely.

KM
Agreed, great discussion.
I can see both arguments. That probably tells us that ideally it would be be neither and we need a new partner for Keath.
 

Northernsoul74

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It's not so much about type as it is role for me. I split the group as Keath/Gardner/Young vs Cordy/Crozier/Wood/Duryea because I see the first group as taking KPFs and the second group as ideally playing hybrid, general defender roles. The latter group aren't inherently defensive players, but we can't rely on them for a high volume of offensive drive. Their styles are different, but we become unbalanced with too many of them because our offensive drive is too easily shut down with only Daniel and Williams alongside them.
I think Bevo sees Cordy in the first group which is part of the issue.
 

yebiga

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Reckon the team picks itself.

Backs
Keath and Cordy with Williams are sufficient. It would be great if Cordy was a little better suited to the big role but his ok and has other strengths. Crozier plays the intercept role. JJ provide the run. Daniel the class, Duryea the respite

Centre
Bont used for impact in the middle and up forward as required. Depth is outstanding
Smith on the ball, it his time to shine
Dunks and Liber provide the grunt. Macrae and Hunter are the retention kings

Forward
#1 pick JUH has to be played and he will be fine.
Treloar will add an X-factor. A new svelte looking Bruce, a stronger Naughton and the Bont all add up to multiple threats. If the ball is coming in quick it should be a formidable forward line.


FB: JJ, Keath, Cordy
HB: Daniel, Williams, Crozier
C: MaCrae, Dunkley, Hunter
HF: Treloar, Naughton, JUH
FF: Bontempelli, Bruce, Wallis

R: English, B.Smith, Liberatore

I/C: Martin, Vandermere, Richards, Duryea

Emergency: Lipinski
 
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