Sam Mitchell vs Daniel Harris

[HairyO]

North fans have been overrating their youth for two decades.

I was going to say that its interesting that their level of delusion hasnt changed. I have zero recollection of who Daniel Harris even is.

Delisted on 149 games... they clearly didnt want him to get life membership.

 

[NetworkNerd]

To be fair, at the conclusion of the 2004 season you could argue Harris had the better season

Harris
21 Games
349 Disposals
108 clearances
11 Goals 4 Behinds
9 Brownlow Votes

Mitchell
20 Games
372 Disposals
120 Clearances
5 Goals 5 Behinds
2 Brownlow votes

 

[La Dispute]

North fans have been overrating their youth for two decades.

Urquhart > Pendlebury

 

[Guardian Hawk]

To be fair, at the conclusion of the 2004 season you could argue Harris had the better season

Harris
21 Games
349 Disposals
108 clearances
11 Goals 4 Behinds
9 Brownlow Votes

Mitchell
20 Games
372 Disposals
120 Clearances
5 Goals 5 Behinds
2 Brownlow votes

Yes and no.

I was here at the time and it was a perfect example of 'premature ejaculation' after half a season of decent form.

The season prior (2003) Mitchell won the Rising Star in a canter and led the entire league in clearances as a virtual rookie (whilst Harris was a fringe player averaging 12 disposals).

Expectations went right up for Mitchell.

Hard tagging was still fashionable and 2004 saw Mitchell copping regular tags from the likes of Cameron Ling, Kane Cornes, Brett Kirk, etc as he was already our best midfielder. He also went off injured early in games twice in 2004 and played through injury in the back half. Meanwhile, Harris emerged as a promising young mid with some good games in the second half of the season, albeit in a better side with no opposition attention whatsoever. Despite the above, Mitchell still averaged more of the ball, more contested ball, more clearances, etc than Harris.

As this thread testifies, as soon as halfway through the next season Mitchell made this comparison laughable as he was injury free and re-established himself as the best extractor in the game (with it being bumped after he broke the record for most clearances in a game (18) after one of the best you'll see against Collingwood - when the comparisons to Diesel really got going). He was on track for a B&F and AA that season until a foot injury ended his year (he was leading the B&F at the time and came back to win his first the following season). Harris continued to be ok, without being great (averaging 16 touches in 2005).

It's a great example of someone having a purple patch and suddenly being promoted as being superior to an established gun (who may be below their best due to significant opposition attention and/or injury). Supporters (not restricted to but North fans seem to do it more) do this all the time and are generally too quick to declare the next star.

 

[r_boy]

In 2004 it was a valid comparison. Yes in the fullness of time it looks ridiculous, nobody is going to dispute who is the better player.

But Daniel Harris

Daniel Harris

Age

43

Ht

180cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.9

4star

K

7.7

3star

HB

9.2

5star

M

2.9

3star

T

4.0

5star

CL

4.2

5star

No current season stats available

D

10.2

3star

K

7.8

3star

HB

2.4

3star

M

0.8

1star

T

2.2

4star

was an absolute gun at clearances. He had major issues with his fitness base that he couldn't seem to improve and as the game got increasingly modern he very quickly became obsolete.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

In 2004 it was a valid comparison. Yes in the fullness of time it looks ridiculous, nobody is going to dispute who is the better player.

But Daniel Harris was an absolute gun at clearances. He had major issues with his fitness base that he couldn't seem to improve and as the game got increasingly modern he very quickly became obsolete.

He was a decent in and under player (hence the comparison to Mitchell) but didn't average more clearances than Mitchell in any year of his career (including the time in question).

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Who the **** is Daniel Harris

Daniel Harris

Age

43

Ht

180cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.9

4star

K

7.7

3star

HB

9.2

5star

M

2.9

3star

T

4.0

5star

CL

4.2

5star

No current season stats available

D

10.2

3star

K

7.8

3star

HB

2.4

3star

M

0.8

1star

T

2.2

4star

?

 

[Back One Out]

Mitchell has more runs on the board, Harro has a bigger scope for improvement.

I'm always wary when people on Big Footy trot out this cliche in player comparisons & pissing contests.

"bigger scope for improvement"

It makes them sound very knowledgeable, almost scientific. People are just guessing. They can see the obvious traits, but they can't see the "fight in the dog" and the individual's desire to get the very best out of themselves - that was a key to Mitchell's success as a footballer. He never stopped improving, right into his 30's...

I've seen so many top 10 draft picks given this "scope for improvement" description over the years and it's failed to materialise because of the general rigours of AFL football. Players get hurt and lose their appetite to play. Others overcome their injuries and forge brilliant careers.

I remember North fans telling me David Hale had more "scope for improvement" than some other young ruckman. Mostly because he had a day out down at Geelong and kicked 8 goals on Matthew Scarlett. Flukey performance. Ironic that Hale was eventually traded to Hawthorn and played in 3 premierships, although he was very much a journeyman footballer. Never a star. Never really lived up to his 1st round draft pick status.

I remember arguing with Pies fans when Ben Reid was selected at centre half back in the 2011 All Australian team and Hawthorn's Josh Gibson was utterly ROBBED. Left out of the AA team despite polling 45 votes (approx) in the Coaches Award, smashing the all-time record for most spoils in a season and finishing 2nd in the club B&F behind Sam Mitchell (who was was r/up to Dane Swan that year in the Brownlow with 30 votes)

I thought Ben Reid had played well but had the easier job playing CHB for a dominant Collingwood team who won by 12 goals every weekend. He was never under any sort of pressure. The Pies defenders were queueing up to intercept opposition kicks inside fifty.

I was 'reliably informed' that Reid was TWICE as good as Gibson and had "far greater scope for improvement"... Pfft. He NEVER replicated his 2011 season. He battled injuries and poor form for the remainder of his career and was a bit of a disappointment. Meanwhile Josh Gibson was unbelievably consistent over a decade for the Roos & Hawks and had a stellar career... often punching out of his weight division as a key defender, but dominating games in the air and on the ground.. One of the defensive pillars of Hawthorn's 3 peat... Best and fairest in 2 premiership years (2013, 2015)... One of a handful of players ever to achieve that feat.

Durability and toughness are underrated commodities on Big Footy. Sure, some players have bad luck with injuries. But the players who are tough enough to overcome injury setbacks, or to play with injuries and front up every week, they should be given more credit.

 

[My Tilly]

Who was Harris?

 

[La Dispute]

Taking OP's bizarre post at face value - was Mitchell ever a poor user of the footy?

I can't recall his kicking skills ever being a weakness, but it was only in the last half of his career he was considered a consensus elite kick on both sides of the body.

Also recall Harris being a pretty mediocre kick, so there's that.

 

[La Dispute]

I'm always wary when people on Big Footy trot out this cliche in player comparisons & pissing contests.

"bigger scope for improvement"

It makes them sound very knowledgeable, almost scientific. People are just guessing. They can see the obvious traits, but they can't see the "fight in the dog" and the individual's desire to get the very best out of themselves - that was a key to Mitchell's success as a footballer. He never stopped improving, right into his 30's...

I've seen so many top 10 draft picks given this "scope for improvement" description over the years and it's failed to materialise because of the general rigours of AFL football. Players get hurt and lose their appetite to play. Others overcome their injuries and forge brilliant careers.

I remember North fans telling me David Hale had more "scope for improvement" than some other young ruckman. Mostly because he had a day out down at Geelong and kicked 8 goals on Matthew Scarlett. Flukey performance. Ironic that Hale was eventually traded to Hawthorn and played in 3 premierships, although he was very much a journeyman footballer. Never a star. Never really lived up to his 1st round draft pick status.

I remember arguing with Pies fans when Ben Reid was selected at centre half back in the 2011 All Australian team and Hawthorn's Josh Gibson was utterly ROBBED. Left out of the AA team despite polling 45 votes (approx) in the Coaches Award, smashing the all-time record for most spoils in a season and finishing 2nd in the club B&F behind Sam Mitchell (who was was r/up to Dane Swan in the Brownlow and polled 30 votes)

I thought Ben Reid had played well but had the easier job playing CHB for a dominant Collingwood team who won by 12 goals every weekend. He was never under any sort of pressure. The Pies defenders were queueing up to intercept opposition kicks inside fifty.

I was told Reid was TWICE as good as Gibson and "greater scope for improvement"... Pfft. He NEVER replicated his 2011 season. He battled injuries and poor form for the remainder of his career and was a bit of a disappointment. Meanwhile Josh Gibson was unbelievably consistent over a decade for the Roos & Hawks and had a stellar career... often punching out of his weight division as a key defender, but dominating games in the air and on the ground.. One of the defensive pillars of Hawthorn's 3 peat... Best and fairest in 2 premiership years (2013, 2015)... One of a handful of players ever to achieve that feat.

Durability and toughness are underrated commodities on Big Footy. Sure, some players have bad luck with injuries. But the players who are tough enough to overcome injury setbacks, or to play with injuries and front up every week, they should be given more credit.

Hale was a decent ruckman at North, but got overtaken by McIntosh who had a few dominant seasons and in that time Hale was traded to the Hawks. I'd argue he lived up to his status as a first round pick, but his best position was as a 3rd key forward who could ruck. Basically a poor man's Brad Otten. Hawthorn didn't have to sacrifice much to get him, but you'd take his career in a heartbeat. A lot of early selections just end up having consistent careers with a couple of spike seasons - that was David Hale to a tee.

I have no doubt Ben Reid would have dominated in this era if fit. So many heralded key defenders have the luxury of sitting behind the ball for long periods of a game and are given AA jackets and talked up as the teams most important. Allir can be pretty poor defensively, but when Port work to get him free he can just fly at high balls in the back half and it looks really impressive despite being a relatively easy role for him.

If I was going to choose between Reid and Gibson during Collingwood's premiership year I'd take Reid. Gibson was a great player, but his success was as much a product of having some other elite defenders around him controlling things deep in defence.

 

[Back One Out]

Hale was a decent ruckman at North, but got overtaken by McIntosh who had a few dominant seasons and in that time Hale was traded to the Hawks. I'd argue he lived up to his status as a first round pick, but his best position was as a 3rd key forward who could ruck. Basically a poor man's Brad Otten. Hawthorn didn't have to sacrifice much to get him, but you'd take his career in a heartbeat. A lot of early selections just end up having consistent careers with a couple of spike seasons - that was David Hale to a tee.

I have no doubt Ben Reid would have dominated in this era if fit. So many heralded key defenders have the luxury of sitting behind the ball for long periods of a game and are given AA jackets and talked up as the teams most important. Allir can be pretty poor defensively, but when Port work to get him free he can just fly at high balls in the back half and it looks really impressive despite being a relatively easy role for him.

If I was going to choose between Reid and Gibson during Collingwood's premiership year I'd take Reid. Gibson was a great player, but his success was as much a product of having some other elite defenders around him controlling things deep in defence.

Gibson was clearly Hawthorn's best defender from 2010 to 2016. It's not even up for debate. It was him - not other teammates - who was controlling everything in defence during that era. He was the guy who constantly killed the contests, brought the ball to ground and then fed it out to our running half backs like Birchall, Burgoyne, Suckling, etc...

 

[theiaofseed]

Taking OP's bizarre post at face value - was Mitchell ever a poor user of the footy?

I can't recall his kicking skills ever being a weakness, but it was only in the last half of his career he was considered a consensus elite kick on both sides of the body.

Also recall Harris being a pretty mediocre kick, so there's that.

Did tend to hack forward from a clearance but he was never a poor kick.

 

[Bipolar Bear]

I've heard of Damien Harris?

 

[Freomaniac]

Gibson was clearly Hawthorn's best defender from 2010 to 2016. It's not even up for debate. It was him - not other teammates - who was controlling everything in defence during that era. He was the guy who constantly killed the contests, brought the ball to ground and then fed it out to our running half backs like Birchall, Burgoyne, Suckling, etc...

Hawks were smart in their trading

 

[Altum Volantes]

North fans have been overrating their youth for two decades.

Much like Friday Night Footy, North Melbourne built BigFooty with chronically over rating their players year on year.

Daniel Harris, Liam Anthony, Shaun Atley, Leigh Harding, Jesse Smith, Daniel Wells (let’s face it, he did **** all with all that talent.), Aaron Black and so forth.

 

[hawkman]

Much like Friday Night Footy, North Melbourne built BigFooty with chronically over rating their players year on year.

Daniel Harris, Liam Anthony, Shaun Atley, Leigh Harding, Jesse Smith, Daniel Wells (let’s face it, he did * all with all that talent.), Aaron Black and so forth.

And you missed Gavin Urquhart who was better than Pendlebury

 

[Engimal v3]

I'd still take Harris over that fat plodder

 

[Tas]

Amazing

Should get a perma ban for necroing a useless thread from 2004, and I wasn't delusional enough to post in this one.

 

[Shinboner roo]

Weird bump

 

[kozi]

Solid bump

 

[Jables]

Taking OP's bizarre post at face value - was Mitchell ever a poor user of the footy?

I can't recall his kicking skills ever being a weakness, but it was only in the last half of his career he was considered a consensus elite kick on both sides of the body.

Also recall Harris being a pretty mediocre kick, so there's that.

No, it was always elite but he copped a much harder tag earlier on, and he was in a weird place of being rated as one of the elite mids while also not really getting the accolades, so that made him prime material for comparing teams best midfielders to and that ends up making fans want to underrate them.

I think if you notably lack kicking range it will always be held against you as well compared to someone like Clinton Young regardless of accuracy, penetrating kick is always going to be a sexier term than weighted kick.

 

[extractasam]

Should get a perma ban for necroing a useless thread from 2004, and I wasn't delusional enough to post in this one.

I think I would actually cop a perma over not bumping this

 

[r_boy]

He was a decent in and under player (hence the comparison to Mitchell) but didn't average more clearances than Mitchell in any year of his career (including the time in question).

I imagine that's fitness and time on ground related.

 

[hilly]

Much like Friday Night Footy, North Melbourne built BigFooty with chronically over rating their players year on year.

Daniel Harris, Liam Anthony, Shaun Atley, Leigh Harding, Jesse Smith, Daniel Wells (let’s face it, he did * all with all that talent.), Aaron Black and so forth.

Tim Kelly.