Samantha Murphy Ballarat * Patrick Orren Stephenson Charged With Murder

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The Murder of Rebecca Young - Ballarat

The Murder of Hannah McGuire - Ballarat * Lachie Young

17

Lachie Young

Age

25

Ht

189cm

Wt

81kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.5

3star

K

6.4

3star

HB

4.1

3star

M

3.3

3star

T

1.8

4star

MG

220.3

3star

D

9.0

2star

K

5.5

2star

HB

3.5

2star

M

1.0

1star

T

2.0

3star

MG

210.0

3star

D

11.2

3star

K

6.2

3star

HB

5.0

4star

M

3.8

4star

T

1.8

4star

MG

219.6

4star

charged



Allegedly

 

[spike101]

Where has it said he's posted bail?

He's been remanded in custody until his next court appearance in August.

Ask Chris Dawson?

 

[ElliottsMaggies]

Ask Chris Dawson?

What?

 

[Malibuandcoke]

The level of desperation for this disgusting text reminds me of the poster who wanted a link to the live stream of the Christchurch massacre. Have to wonder about their motives tbh.

I’ve been away from this for a few days, what is the text everyone’s referring to please

 

[mrskafoops]

I’ve been away from this for a few days, what is the text everyone’s referring to please

Nothing, don’t worry about it. Just some rubbish circulating.

 

[croweater 41]

I’ve been away from this for a few days, what is the text everyone’s referring to please

Small town rumour crap that really has nothing to do with anything.

We’ve discussed and discussed the text and multiple theories that can be forgotten about and that don’t necessarily need to be brought back up.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

You're assuming the police want to pin the crime on anybody they can, regardless of who is guilty. Not saying that never, ever happens but it's certainly not my experience or that of anybody I know.

It's tedious to undertake detailed investigative work and maintain an open mind on culpability. Yes I absolutely believe police regularly take short cuts including trying to pin crimes without the detailed analysis that should be required each time. The resources on a more severe crime such as murder should mandate changed approach but once poor habits are founded they are difficult to break and tend to creep in still.

 

[Terrafirma]

I gleaned that jason_recliner was simply trying to make the point that it is less common in Australia for cops to falsely pin crimes on innocent people than other countries.

Happy to wait for clarification if that's correct or not

I find it interestin

Without knowing all the details, it's hard to know for sure, but from the outside, I believe Ron Iddles would have taken a different approach with the suspect. Ron's mantra was to treat everyone with respect, including the suspect. That is the best way to establish trust and then elicit information. There seems to be zero respect or trust between the police and the accused. Therefore no information is being exchanged.
There may be things going on behind the scenes we don't know about, but jumping to a murder charge without a body or obvious motive wasn't the way Ron operated.

Yeah Ron certainly had a way with people albeit crims or suspects. In the end most of them would turn around eventually and say quote "Ron, I'll tell you why I did it.!"

If you watch any of Ron's interviews/talks he believes people don't communicate directly anymore. They use emails and text etc and this has created mental illness problems which in turn leads to murder in so many scenarios. It's a really interesting take on society today and the impact it's had. Throw Covid on top of that and it's no wonder we are where we are today. You have to wonder how many detectives there are today that can compare to Ron. Today they rely so much on "Digital Data and DNA" so perhaps relationships with POI aren't like the Ron Iddle days. For example could Ron have made this case different i.e. location of body etc

 

[jason_recliner]

I find it interestin

Yeah Ron certainly had a way with people albeit crims or suspects. In the end most of them would turn around eventually and say quote "Ron, I'll tell you why I did it.!"

If you watch any of Ron's interviews/talks he believes people don't communicate directly anymore. They use emails and text etc and this has created mental illness problems which in turn leads to murder in so many scenarios. It's a really interesting take on society today and the impact it's had. Throw Covid on top of that and it's no wonder we are where we are today. You have to wonder how many detectives there are today that can compare to Ron. Today they rely so much on "Digital Data and DNA" so perhaps relationships with POI aren't like the Ron Iddle days. For example could Ron have made this case different i.e. location of body etc

On the other hand, police are solving cases today that had no hope even 20 years ago. Both approaches are needed (and utilised, I imagine).

 

[thumbs_up]

If you watch any of Ron's interviews/talks he believes people don't communicate directly anymore. They use emails and text etc and this has created mental illness problems which in turn leads to murder in so many scenarios.

Hmmmm

 

[31550]

They use emails and text etc and this has created mental illness problems which in turn leads to murder in so many scenarios.

Agree that we have a wider and more prevalent set of mental illnesses to deal with these days. But has that actually resulted in an increase in violent crime or murder? There was certainly a statistical increase (~90%) in such crimes committed by young people (15-19) between 2014 and 2019 (pre COVID). These crimes decreased during COVID I think - probably because of lockdowns / social distancing.

I'm not sure that you can prove the connection between social media and mental illness, or social media and violent crime by these statistics, but it's an interesting study.

The digital age provides additional ways in which a criminal can leave a footprint, and therefore additional methods at the disposal of police to solve crimes. But the digital age also provides more ways for predators to identify and stalk victims, and if they are tech-savvy enough, it also provides the means for criminals to escape detection by creating false or misleading digital footprints.

 

[Terrafirma]

Agree that we have a wider and more prevalent set of mental illnesses to deal with these days. But has that actually resulted in an increase in violent crime or murder? There was certainly a statistical increase (~90%) in such crimes committed by young people (15-19) between 2014 and 2019 (pre COVID). These crimes decreased during COVID I think - probably because of lockdowns / social distancing.

I'm not sure that you can prove the connection between social media and mental illness, or social media and violent crime by these statistics, but it's an interesting study.

The digital age provides additional ways in which a criminal can leave a footprint, and therefore additional methods at the disposal of police to solve crimes. But the digital age also provides more ways for predators to identify and stalk victims, and if they are tech-savvy enough, it also provides the means for criminals to escape detection by creating false or misleading digital footprints.

This was the opinion of Ron Iddles and I think it has some merit.

 

[thumbs_up]

This was the opinion of Ron Iddles and I think it has some merit.

Thanks for posting this - looks like an interesting talk

 

[probablyliampicken]

No. They have alleged:

• she died that day
• it was an attack causing her death not a H & R
• it was intentional.
• they have used data and detailed investigative work

So.......in piecing it together there is either a witness or high use of data collection including CCTV to make conclusions to prove she died that day and at his hands. if your phone is pinged close proximity in remote location next to hers and then her heart rate stops per iCloud smart phone then she died in his presence. Can't be H &R because of location. They possibly also have propensity evidence of similar attacks.

It's called deductive reasoning.....where certain conclusions can be made based upon what has been said and what's needed to make charges

He could also have confessed to a friend or family who has come forward and corroborated events that match all watch, phones, cctv, GPS, witness sightings, shop receipts, petrol purchases, Bunnings dash, dashcam data. Also possible that he had an willing/unwiiling accomplice in disposing of Sam's body on the day or later if he needed to relocate her. He may have spun a story re accidental hit in car, was DUI, drugs in his system, can't afford to lose license for work etc Called in a favour from someone who owed him. Or they may not have known about Sam or his involvement with disappearance or murder, the accused might've asked to use a shed or garage or special equipment for a few days, and they put 2 and 2 together later after all the media calls for assistance. Cops wouldn't have to tell us any of that, its just info gathering from public. And cops are still asking for more info in desperate effort to find Sam for her loved one's sake and to make the conviction stick if its all accurate. The police choppers were up by early Sunday afternoon so its plausible they knew she was in a bad way or dead from her apple watch data alert shared from family cloud account by noon. I have a friend with an apple watch that sends a 000 call by default due to life threatening med condition. Who knows what her settings were, could be factory settings or similar when data is dire, pings connected watches such as husband's immediately?

 

[31550]

This was the opinion of Ron Iddles and I think it has some merit.

Great to watch if you have the time.

Ron makes a couple of points relevant to this case:

• police need a motive and a cause of death to prove murder (they have identified the victim, which is the 3rd thing)
• police should remain open to other possibilities beyond the most obvious theory
• in 98% of cases the killer is known to the victim
• according to Ron, something is always left at the crime scene

 

[probablyliampicken]

Wasn't there also mention of a few seconds of video?

There are several cctv cameras at the telstra substation on Boak road at Mt Clear where first intensive forensic search conducted. The search that had official media and a presser beforehand. Specialised units, fine tooth comb.

 

[Lady O]

There are several cctv cameras at the telstra substation on Boak road at Mt Clear where first intensive forensic search conducted. The search that had official media and a presser beforehand. Specialised units, fine tooth comb.

I've re-listened to the Police Commissioner's statement after the suspect was arrested and it's not mentioned there. I just don't recall where I heard it.

 

[FTY1]

On the other hand, police are solving cases today that had no hope even 20 years ago. Both approaches are needed (and utilised, I imagine).

I think the main thing there are different tools to use now. DNA helps a lot in getting a conviction and is probably one of the main things for getting a cold case conviction. It is a different way of policing but a combination of old school techniques and new techniques are used. Having someone in the area doesn't prove they did it.

Because of the tools, there is also a higher expectation of proof that is required now to prove murder. Someone confessing with maybe another witness in the area may have been enough before DNA evidence. It isn't now.

It can also mean a longer investigation.

Hopefully this leads to less people wrongfully convicted.

 

[Malibuandcoke]

I’m going with this. The police were very very strong on what they believed (know) happened after his arrest. Likely they have irrefutable evidence such as video and are only need to find her body.

Although, I do keep getting a feeling that there is more to this story than meets the eye. Interesting that the police haven’t been keeping the family members updated on developments - for what reason I wonder?

Yes, I wondered this too. You would hope the family would be notified of any specific searches and developments

 

[Mister Carlton]

For those who think “If I’m innocent I’ll talk”, no. You take the lawyer’s advice and do what is best in the circumstances.

If the police think you did it, they will try to trip you up. At that stage they actually don’t care how much you protest.

Unless you have a positive alibi like other people who were with you at the time of the crime, there is no good talking.

I say this as someone who has been in the vicinity of an armed robbery, alone, who the police tried to question, tried to trip up, and were ready to arrest.

What did you make off with?

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

For those who think “If I’m innocent I’ll talk”, no. You take the lawyer’s advice and do what is best in the circumstances.

If the police think you did it, they will try to trip you up. At that stage they actually don’t care how much you protest.

Unless you have a positive alibi like other people who were with you at the time of the crime, there is no good talking.

I say this as someone who has been in the vicinity of an armed robbery, alone, who the police tried to question, tried to trip up, and were ready to arrest.

Being the lookout takes a lot of nerve, kudos.

 

[Zidane98]

He could also have confessed to a friend or family who has come forward and corroborated events that match all watch, phones, cctv, GPS, witness sightings, shop receipts, petrol purchases, Bunnings dash, dashcam data. Also possible that he had an willing/unwiiling accomplice in disposing of Sam's body on the day or later if he needed to relocate her. He may have spun a story re accidental hit in car, was DUI, drugs in his system, can't afford to lose license for work etc Called in a favour from someone who owed him. Or they may not have known about Sam or his involvement with disappearance or murder, the accused might've asked to use a shed or garage or special equipment for a few days, and they put 2 and 2 together later after all the media calls for assistance. Cops wouldn't have to tell us any of that, its just info gathering from public. And cops are still asking for more info in desperate effort to find Sam for her loved one's sake and to make the conviction stick if its all accurate. The police choppers were up by early Sunday afternoon so its plausible they knew she was in a bad way or dead from her apple watch data alert shared from family cloud account by noon. I have a friend with an apple watch that sends a 000 call by default due to life threatening med condition. Who knows what her settings were, could be factory settings or similar when data is dire, pings connected watches such as husband's immediately?

I believe they have proof of him being in the area at the time matching with SM's metadata. Returning to the area in his car and leaving again. Might even be DNA traces from his car. He's obviously refusing to answer any questions about the evidence against him. With the search suspended the only likely way of recovering her body now is to gather new information through questioning and/or possibly metadata which places a car suspected of transporting her body into a possible location.

 

[31550]

I believe they have proof of him being in the area at the time matching with SM's metadata. Returning to the area in his car and leaving again. Might even be DNA traces from his car. He's obviously refusing to answer any questions about the evidence against him. With the search suspended the only likely way of recovering her body now is to gather new information through questioning and/or possibly metadata which places a car suspected of transporting her body into a possible location.

I think most of us here believe that the police have mobile phone/GPS data which places the accused and SM in the same location at the same time.
What is missing, however is any apparent evidence that this was a deliberate or intentional act (ie murder), as police have alleged.
Police will need something like a body (and thereby cause of death) or murder weapon, or proven motive (maybe all of the above) to prove murder, unless they get a confession.

 

[Zidane98]

I think most of us here believe that the police have mobile phone/GPS data which places the accused and SM in the same location at the same time.
What is missing, however is any apparent evidence that this was a deliberate or intentional act (ie murder), as police have alleged.
Police will need something like a body (and thereby cause of death) or murder weapon, or proven motive (maybe all of the above) to prove murder, unless they get a confession.

I'd be surprised if it's just metadata they have. All that proves is POS' device was in the area at the same time as SM. To arrest him and have him under remand until his next hearing means they must surely have additional evidence of a deliberate crime. I'm not sure that alone would even be enough to make an arrest.

Logical possibilities for me are:

DNA evidence of SM in alleged suspect's vehicle (this would be difficult to explain)
Witness to POS in the area leaving on the Sun morning and returning with a shovel (that would be difficult to explain)
Friend / family / colleague claim he made a confession (that would be more problematic, alleged supsect could claim it wass't a serious confession, context etc).
SM's device discovered in alleged suspect's possession (difficult to explain but could be claimed it was simply discovered in the bush)


This is quite similar to the Bayley/Meagher case except for the police not being able to pressure alleged suspect into revealing the location of the victim's body.

What is key here is tracking POS' movements on the Sunday. How far could he have got etc, where was his car snapped on CCTV. If he didn't leave the area in general on the Sunday then the likelihood of SM's body being in the general area is high unless he was brazen enough to return to the area while the searches were on, retrieve SM's body and possibly conceal her somewhere absolutely miles away.

 

[31550]

I'd be surprised if it's just metadata they have. All that proves is POS' device was in the area at the same time as SM. To arrest him and have him under remand until his next hearing means they must surely have additional evidence of a deliberate crime. I'm not sure that alone would even be enough to make an arrest.

Logical possibilities for me are:

DNA evidence of SM in alleged suspect's vehicle (this would be difficult to explain)
Witness to POS in the area leaving on the Sun morning and returning with a shovel (that would be difficult to explain)
Friend / family / colleague claim he made a confession (that would be more problematic, alleged supsect could claim it wass't a serious confession, context etc).
SM's device discovered in alleged suspect's possession (difficult to explain but could be claimed it was simply discovered in the bush)


This is quite similar to the Bayley/Meagher case except for the police not being able to pressure alleged suspect into revealing the location of the victim's body.

What is key here is tracking POS' movements on the Sunday. How far could he have got etc, where was his car snapped on CCTV. If he didn't leave the area in general on the Sunday then the likelihood of SM's body being in the general area is high unless he was brazen enough to return to the area while the searches were on, retrieve SM's body and possibly conceal her somewhere absolutely miles away.

All good, but none of that suggests a deliberate or intentional act.

 

[Zidane98]

All good, but none of that suggests a deliberate or intentional act.

True. Not sure how they could possibly know if the death was a deliberate act or not. The coverup though is a crime in itself regardless of how the death occurred.