Play Nice The 'all things Carlton' mega-thread

[BigVic]

Hiring Malthouse was a big mistake.

 

[dumb]

bigfooty forum forgets that they all piled on ratten after carlton lost an unlosable game to gold coast and fell out of contention for finals.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Steele had a career game by following cripps around. Says all you need to know about cripps' ability to find the footy.

Nah, I'd say Steele's career-game was against West Coast last year, when he had the job on Shuey and kept him to his lowest number of disposals in two years, while having 26 disposals (20 contested), 2 goals, 12 tackles, 10 clearances, a contested mark and received the 3 Brownlow votes and 10 coaches votes himself.

Yesterday his best since then though. He's really returned to top form this last few weeks, after we were stuffing around with him on the wing and so-on earlier in the year.

 

[JackFlash]

The only thing that will save Carlton is a return to Princes Park playing a minimum of 6 home games. All their problems stem from this dumb move. ( I know it wasn't their doing)
If they lose to the Gold Coast Suns in two weeks time the Scheissenhausen hits the fan and stand well back....

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

The only thing that will save Carlton is a return to Princes Park playing a minimum of 6 home games. All their problems stem from this dumb move. ( I know it wasn't their doing)
If they lose to the Gold Coast Suns in two weeks time the Scheissenhausen hits the fan and stand well back....

The AFL won't allow us to play at Princes Park again.

 

[Malifice]

Well nothing has changed in fact things are only getting worse at my club

Of course it's getting worse. We've traded out a lot of senior players over the past few years and brought in a lot of kids. It was always going to get worse.

Listen carefully. We ****ed up the drafts from 2007-2014. Failed 1st round picks (no longer in the AFL) from that time include Watson, Bootsma, Lucas, Menzel, Yarran, Boekhoest - plus we traded out two more out for Mclean and Jacksch (also no longer in the AFL). Second, third and higher picks (plus Rookie picks etc) fared no better.

This is the predicament we were facing in 2015. We had blown 8 years of recruiting, only nailing one pick (Cripps in 2013) in that time. Of the other half dozen players on the list from those 8 years of recruiting are players like Rowe, the perennially injured Irishman Byrne, and Graham. Hardly world beaters.

Nearly 50 players selected over 8 years for a net return of 1 x A grader and 4-5 x B graders.

Over those same 8 years we leaked players out the back door. Betts, Waite, Robinson and Garlett left, Judd and Walker retired to name a few.

As a consequence we had a playing list with 3-4 A grade players, and some good best 22 types in the upper age bracket, and no good players in the 18- 26 age bracket (barring Cripps).

We had monstered the list to the point that we were in the position that once Gibbs, Murphy, Simpson and Kruezer left (and they were all approaching or hitting 30 at this time), we were going to be left with nothing but Cripps as our only A grader, and the rest all B graders (or worse). And you could bet your bottom dollar Cripps wouldnt be sticking around to play in a VFL quality side.

Due to ****ing up a decades worth of drafts we were in a huge hole, and there was an even bigger hole rapidly approaching.

Ergo, the decision was made for a 66 game (3 year) 'total list reset'. The old list was trashed and had a use by date attached. Senior players were to be traded out to enable us to hit the draft hard to get in talent, and would only to be retained to enable us to play the kids and provide some senior experience while we turned the place upside down.

The plan was to go the draft heavily. Tip as much talent in at the bottom bracket of youth (18-21) over the years 2015-2018 and assemble a list that would be ready to go early next decade, based around Cripps and Docherty. Once we had a good core of youth, we first needed to get 100 games into them to get them where we needed them, and over that time we would look to supplement that with Free Agents and Trades.

What you're seeing this year is a list forced to play a lot of kids before they're ready, with no senior experience around them (largely due to injury this year, but also due to the aforementioned poor drafting from 2007-2014, and having to trade out what good senior players we did have for more early draft picks in Henderson, Tuohy etc). A list that has had 43 changes in 3 years.

5 of our starting 8 midfielders last night were aged 18-21, and they were playing with no ruckman for most of the game. No side in the AFL can prop up a midfield of 5 first or second year kids with an average of 20 or so games between them. They're going to get smashed.

Dont expect much to change until those kids have gotten to the magic 50-100+ games mark, and have had around 5 preseasons in the legs.

This year we switch to a more balanced approach (more good kids + players in the 23-28 year old age bracket that we are light on in). Next year we hit trades and Free Agency hard (Kelly, Shiel, Neale being prime targets).

Sadly, you cant seem to see the forest for all the trees. You need to look at where we have come from, why we are doing what we are doing, and where we are going next.

 

[Blueyboy74]

Except that by 2010 Richmond already had guys like Cotchin, Martin, Riewoldt, Rance on their list.

True but they were aged 19, 18, 21 & 20 respectively at the start of the season. No real difference to the ages of C.Curnow, Weitering, Cripps & Marchbank at the beginning of 2016.

I understand it's apples & oranges but the point is the graph was heading north. Carlton & Bolton were clear with their message that it would take time but didn't really expect or say that we're not even close to bottoming out and the rebuild won't really start until the 4th year ..

 

[SickQwon]

Agree, 2008-2014 drafts is where we ****ed it up. All those players would be in their prime by now. An entire generation of footballers built into the system are completely missing. Every club has about 10-12 players in their core group drafted by their in this period . Carlton have 4.

Ratten was our best chance for a flag at the time. But there is no way I’d take him as coach now.

 

[Kram]

Listen carefully. We ****** up the drafts from 2007-2014. Failed 1st round picks (no longer in the AFL) from that time include Watson, Bootsma, Lucas, Menzel, Yarran, Boekhoest - plus we traded out two more out for Mclean and Jacksch (also no longer in the AFL). Second, third and higher picks (plus Rookie picks etc) fared no better.

Probably had enough talent to play AFL if he wasn't a bonehead but pick 22 for Bootsma was just bizarre, talk about reaching.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Of course it's getting worse. We've traded out a lot of senior players over the past few years and brought in a lot of kids. It was always going to get worse.

Listen carefully. We ****** up the drafts from 2007-2014. Failed 1st round picks (no longer in the AFL) from that time include Watson, Bootsma, Lucas, Menzel, Yarran, Boekhoest - plus we traded out two more out for Mclean and Jacksch (also no longer in the AFL). Second, third and higher picks (plus Rookie picks etc) fared no better.

This is the predicament we were facing in 2015. We had blown 8 years of recruiting, only nailing one pick (Cripps in 2013) in that time. Of the other half dozen players on the list from those 8 years of recruiting are players like Rowe, the perennially injured Irishman Byrne, and Graham. Hardly world beaters.

Nearly 50 players selected over 8 years for a net return of 1 x A grader and 4-5 x B graders.

Over those same 8 years we leaked players out the back door. Betts, Waite, Robinson and Garlett left, Judd and Walker retired to name a few.

As a consequence we had a playing list with 3-4 A grade players, and some good best 22 types in the upper age bracket, and no good players in the 18- 26 age bracket (barring Cripps).

We had monstered the list to the point that we were in the position that once Gibbs, Murphy, Simpson and Kruezer left (and they were all approaching or hitting 30 at this time), we were going to be left with nothing but Cripps as our only A grader, and the rest all B graders (or worse). And you could bet your bottom dollar Cripps wouldnt be sticking around to play in a VFL quality side.

Due to ******* up a decades worth of drafts we were in a huge hole, and there was an even bigger hole rapidly approaching.

Ergo, the decision was made for a 66 game (3 year) 'total list reset'. The old list was trashed and had a use by date attached. Senior players were to be traded out to enable us to hit the draft hard to get in talent, and would only to be retained to enable us to play the kids and provide some senior experience while we turned the place upside down.

The plan was to go the draft heavily. Tip as much talent in at the bottom bracket of youth (18-21) over the years 2015-2018 and assemble a list that would be ready to go early next decade, based around Cripps and Docherty. Once we had a good core of youth, we first needed to get 100 games into them to get them where we needed them, and over that time we would look to supplement that with Free Agents and Trades.

What you're seeing this year is a list forced to play a lot of kids before they're ready, with no senior experience around them (largely due to injury this year, but also due to the aforementioned poor drafting from 2007-2014, and having to trade out what good senior players we did have for more early draft picks in Henderson, Tuohy etc). A list that has had 43 changes in 3 years.

5 of our starting 8 midfielders last night were aged 18-21, and they were playing with no ruckman for most of the game. No side in the AFL can prop up a midfield of 5 first or second year kids with an average of 20 or so games between them. They're going to get smashed.

Dont expect much to change until those kids have gotten to the magic 50-100+ games mark, and have had around 5 preseasons in the legs.

This year we switch to a more balanced approach (more good kids + players in the 23-28 year old age bracket that we are light on in). Next year we hit trades and Free Agency hard (Kelly, Shiel, Neale being prime targets).

Sadly, you cant seem to see the forest for all the trees. You need to look at where we have come from, why we are doing what we are doing, and where we are going next.

What happens if the drafting over the “3 year list reset” is not much better than previously?

 

[Malifice]

True but they were aged 19, 18, 21 & 20 respectively at the start of the season. No real difference to the ages of C.Curnow, Weitering, Cripps & Marchbank at the beginning of 2016.

I understand it's apples & oranges but the point is the graph was heading north. Carlton & Bolton were clear with their message that it would take time but didn't really expect or say that we're not even close to bottoming out and the rebuild won't really start until the 4th year ..

Mate, you're basing this off a false premise - that we were going to rebuild for 66 games (3 years), and then once that was complete be back in finals.

That wasnt the plan. It was 66 games to totally start the list from scratch. We even called it a 'total club reset'. It was a ground zero root and branch list cull and restart. Those 66 games were to get the foundations right (i.e hit the draft hard) to get in the nucleus of the side that will take us forward.

Any player on our list over the age of 24 likely wont be a part of the list when we next return to finals. Docherty is 24; Cripps 23 (they were 21 and 20 when we started this reset). They're the players that we drafted the kids around.

Now its about getting those kids up to that 100 game/ 5 pre-season mark, while we take a more balanced approach to list management (hit the draft AND look to get in free agents and trades to supplement the list).

This wasnt '3 years to supplement the premiership list we already had' like how the Hawks went about it. This was '3 years just to get back to ground zero and undo 8 years of ****ing up the draft'.

 

[emuboy]

It's hard to say exactly what's gone wrong at Carlton after the promising start to the decade, which proved to be a false dawn.

After bottoming out in an abysmal 2015 season, the Blues seemed to be getting back on the right track in 2016 & 2017 with 7-15 and 6-16 seasons. Sure, the developing side did cop some heavy defeats as evidenced by the poor percentages and lowly ladder positions, but the Blues were definitely on the improve and not a team to be taken lightly, a lesson some opponents learned the hard way.

But 2018 has been a total disaster. Is it just a bad year, or has the rebuild failed to work and they have to go back to square one? Anyway, even as a Magpie fan I hope the Blues turn it around in 2019 as they have been down for years, and I would prefer to see a more competitive Carlton up and about.

 

[Blueyboy74]

Mate, you're basing this off a false premise - that we were going to rebuild for 66 games (3 years), and then once that was complete be back in finals.

That wasnt the plan. It was 66 games to totally start the list from scratch. We even called it a 'total club reset'. It was a ground zero root and branch list cull and restart. Those 66 games were to get the foundations right (i.e hit the draft hard) to get in the nucleus of the side that will take us forward.

Any player on our list over the age of 24 likely wont be a part of the list when we next return to finals. Docherty is 24; Cripps 23 (they were 21 and 20 when we started this reset). They're the players that we drafted the kids around.

Now its about getting those kids up to that 100 game/ 5 pre-season mark, while we take a more balanced approach to list management (hit the draft AND look to get in free agents and trades to supplement the list).

This wasnt '3 years to supplement the premiership list we already had' like how the Hawks went about it. This was '3 years just to get back to ground zero and undo 8 years of ******* up the draft'.

Actually I never suggested finals after 3 years but don't pretend either that the club or supporters believed it would mark true ground zero. Yeah there are some other factors at play such as injuries but that doesn't mean three years in there appears little progress in areas such as game style/strategy, player development, football admin, sports science etc nor if the rebuild strategy conceived back then was the right one. The standard line that "we're young & had injuries" doesn't really apply on those fronts.

 

[Malifice]

What happens if the drafting over the “3 year list reset” is not much better than previously?

Then we're somewhere between being totally ****ed and up for more years of pain.

Melbourne's rebuild took much longer in part because they messed up a fair few early draft picks early in the picture (Watts, Grimes, Trengrove etc). The Saints are facing a similar issue at the moment with question marks over McCartin and Billings.

If you get your picks wrong when youre in the phase of hitting the draft hard, it can delay or even totally screw you up later on down the track.

It can also make it more difficult to get in free agents (who want to see a talented list). Melbourne have turned that corner and have been able to lure a couple of big name recruits in Lever, and have done exceptionally well in recent drafts with Hogan, Oliver, Petracca, Gawn and a few others.

Most of those players (Hogan, Oliver etc) the club traded heavily to get access to. They had a plan and stuck to it.

They've now moved their list management from drafting talent (and a focus on the draft), to trading and free agency to supplement the kids they picked up. They had no problems with paying slight overs for Lever last year to get the player they wanted. They're looking like a decent destination club for FA and I wouldnt be surprised to see Gaff head there this off season. They're still a bit flakey, but they're about to drop that for good for mine.

The Saints have arguably not gotten the drafting bit as good as they would have liked, and made a few missteps along the way. They're having a harder time of attracting Star power/ A graders to them also (because they havent really drafted any).

Remains to be seen with the Saints how they proceed from here.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Then we're somewhere between being totally ****** and up for more years of pain.

Melbourne's rebuild took much longer in part because they messed up a fair few early draft picks early in the picture (Watts, Grimes, Trengrove etc). The Saints are facing a similar issue at the moment with question marks over McCartin and Billings.

If you get your picks wrong when youre in the phase of hitting the draft hard, it can delay or even totally screw you up later on down the track.

It can also make it more difficult to get in free agents (who want to see a talented list). Melbourne have turned that corner and have been able to lure a couple of big name recruits in Lever, and have done exceptionally well in recent drafts with Hogan, Oliver, Petracca, Gawn and a few others.

Most of those players (Hogan, Oliver etc) the club traded heavily to get access to. They had a plan and stuck to it.

They've now moved their list management from drafting talent (and a focus on the draft), to trading and free agency to supplement the kids they picked up. They had no problems with paying slight overs for Lever last year to get the player they wanted. They're looking like a decent destination club for FA and I wouldnt be surprised to see Gaff head there this off season. They're still a bit flakey, but they're about to drop that for good for mine.

The Saints have arguably not gotten the drafting bit as good as they would have liked, and made a few missteps along the way. They're having a harder time of attracting Star power/ A graders to them also (because they havent really drafted any).

Remains to be seen with the Saints how they proceed from here.

It’s an enormous risk if you so blatantly abandon all hope and put absolutely everything into the draft. Because you assure yourself years of shit, and people want to see a return for putting up with that.

And the draft is such an inexact “science”, it’s a tough task. If they **** this up, things could go very, very badly. Totally throwing out any hope of competitiveness for an extended period is a very risky manoeuvre.

 

[Malifice]

Actually I never suggested finals after 3 years but don't pretend either that the club or supporters believed it would mark true ground zero.

Some supporters certainly thought it was 3 years then back to finals.

Those supporters simply were not listening to the club (the club was very clear that this was a ground zero total list reset, and the reasons why it had to happen) and were ignorant of the hole we found ourselves in, and the reason why we had to do what we did.

Like any other club we have feral supporters, who (basically) arent very bright. They want instant gratification and cant see the bigger picture. When it comes to instant gratification and messiah complexes, Carlton are renowned for it.

That said, the club is pretty unified with the direction we are headed (players, admin, supporters etc). Most of us are savvy enough to know why we had to do what we did, and are in this for the long haul.

Not much will change next year. We'll be bottom 4 again. But I do expect us to start to rise rather quickly after that in 2020/21 once those kids we've picked up over the past four or so years start to reach that magical 100 game mark, and we get in some Free agents or trades.

 

[Fadge]

With all this taken into account, I would have thought Steven was BOG (as voted in the paper, etc), as he was dominant (33 disposals (@79% DE), 2 long goals, 13 score-involvements, 8 marks, 490m-gained, etc), but I don't think whoever he was playing on had anywhere near that much influence on the game, unlike in the case of Cripps.

Who did Jack Steven play on, out of interest?

 

[Malifice]

It’s an enormous risk if you so blatantly abandon all hope and put absolutely everything into the draft. Because you assure yourself years of shit, and people want to see a return for putting up with that.

And the draft is such an inexact “science”, it’s a tough task. If they **** this up, things could go very, very badly. Totally throwing out any hope of competitiveness for an extended period is a very risky manoeuvre.

The 'hope' was sold to supporters as 'green shoots'. Yes we're going to be shit, but look for those little glimpses of what the future will hold.

Its far from perfect, but what other option did we have? We were going nowhere with the Frankenstein monster of a list we had (Gibbs, Kruezer, Murphy and Simpson were propping up a bunch of B graders with nothing of any note underneath them). We were a top heavy side, that was headed for a massive cliff.

Bolton was also trying to be competitive by focusing on a miserly defense the past few years. The theory was to get our backline learning under extreme conditions (and it was something we actually did well last year).

This year a decision was made to transition to a more offensive game plan, and it hasnt worked. We simply dont have the bigger bodies for it. Adding to that is the injury problems we've had this year and it's been a shocker of a year, even considering the kids we've been playing.

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

Then we're somewhere between being totally ****** and up for more years of pain.

Melbourne's rebuild took much longer in part because they messed up a fair few early draft picks early in the picture (Watts, Grimes, Trengrove etc). The Saints are facing a similar issue at the moment with question marks over McCartin and Billings.

If you get your picks wrong when youre in the phase of hitting the draft hard, it can delay or even totally screw you up later on down the track.

It can also make it more difficult to get in free agents (who want to see a talented list). Melbourne have turned that corner and have been able to lure a couple of big name recruits in Lever, and have done exceptionally well in recent drafts with Hogan, Oliver, Petracca, Gawn and a few others.

Most of those players (Hogan, Oliver etc) the club traded heavily to get access to. They had a plan and stuck to it.

They've now moved their list management from drafting talent (and a focus on the draft), to trading and free agency to supplement the kids they picked up. They had no problems with paying slight overs for Lever last year to get the player they wanted. They're looking like a decent destination club for FA and I wouldnt be surprised to see Gaff head there this off season. They're still a bit flakey, but they're about to drop that for good for mine.

The Saints have arguably not gotten the drafting bit as good as they would have liked, and made a few missteps along the way. They're having a harder time of attracting Star power/ A graders to them also (because they havent really drafted any).

Remains to be seen with the Saints how they proceed from here.

I think the list problem is overrated. People tend to go to the concrete things you can easily understand.
With a group coming coming off the bottom trying to rise, it's a lot about belief in my view. The impact of injuries to critical players is amplified in those circumstances because of the effect it has on the players confidence. Continuity in the playing group is also a real issue for all clubs, but more so in those circumstances.
The Lions didn't suddenly become a more skilled team in the last few weeks, they got a taste of winning and found the belief I think.

 

[Malifice]

I think the list problem is overrated. People tend to go to the concrete things you can easily understand.
With a group coming coming off the bottom trying to rise, it's a lot about belief in my view. The impact of injuries to critical players is amplified in those circumstances because of the effect it has on the players confidence. Continuity in the playing group is also a real issue for all clubs, but more so in those circumstances.
The Lions didn't suddenly become a more skilled team in the last few weeks, they got a taste of winning and found the belief I think.

Mate, like with anything its largely above the shoulders. Certainly our players checked out pretty early yesterday.

At present though, we dont have the talent and hard bodies to compete though.

You need all three to be successful. Talent, experience and belief.

Ive seen Richmond go from total headcases for over 30 years to turning it around. Melbourne for mine are right at the corner as well (although still flakey, it'll click for them very soon).

 

[Ron The Bear]

It’s an enormous risk if you so blatantly abandon all hope and put absolutely everything into the draft. Because you assure yourself years of shit, and people want to see a return for putting up with that.

And the draft is such an inexact “science”, it’s a tough task. If they **** this up, things could go very, very badly. Totally throwing out any hope of competitiveness for an extended period is a very risky manoeuvre.

The draft offers hope that trades don't. You're much less likely to get over the odds through trades. Generally you're getting a known quantity, and one that the player's former club has been prepared to let go for whatever reason.

Carlton is only one bumper draft from getting back on track. If they trade the top pick for two others and land e.g. another Curnow (#12) and Cripps (#13), they'd have enough for a future core and be in a position to trade picks for good players who fill needs as soon as next year.

As you say, stuff it up and the misery is prolonged. But if I was a Carlton supporter, I'd be disappointed if they didn't continue building for the future by going to the draft.

 

[TheBlue]

The draft offers hope that trades don't. You're much less likely to get over the odds through trades. Generally you're getting a known quantity, and one that the player's former club has been prepared to let go for whatever reason.

Carlton is only one bumper draft from getting back on track. If they trade the top pick for two others and land e.g. another Curnow (#12) and Cripps (#13), they'd have enough for a future core and be in a position to trade picks for good players who fill needs as soon as next year.

As you say, stuff it up and the misery is prolonged. But if I was a Carlton supporter, I'd be disappointed if they didn't continue building for the future by going to the draft.

Agreed. Compound that with the fact that the free agency pool is dwindling this year and we'd therefore have to pay serious overs to get any talent to request a trade to us with a lot of clubs now out of the rebuild phase and into their 'premiership window'. And that's the major problem with trading and FA for us at the moment - sure we have a lot of money to throw at the 'right' player/s but we are probably the last club any big players want to move to. In short, trading simply isn't an option for us until we have a more viable list that is performing to an acceptable standard, and the only way to achieve that is to first draft effectively and then get results on the field.

 

[Malifice]

The draft offers hope that trades don't. You're much less likely to get over the odds through trades. Generally you're getting a known quantity, and one that the player's former club has been prepared to let go for whatever reason.

Carlton is only one bumper draft from getting back on track. If they trade the top pick for two others and land e.g. another Curnow (#12) and Cripps (#13), they'd have enough for a future core and be in a position to trade picks for good players who fill needs as soon as next year.

As you say, stuff it up and the misery is prolonged. But if I was a Carlton supporter, I'd be disappointed if they didn't continue building for the future by going to the draft.

Pretty much this.

Im very open to trading pick 1 for a top 5 pick and a later first rounder.

I see the top six as being elite this year (the two SA kids in Lukosious and Rankine, the two King brothers, and Walsh and Smith the two Victorian mids) with likely a few others hitting that level as well (Blakey and a few more).

Id want a pick in the top 5 or 6 to guarantee me one of those six players above (I'd be happy with any of those six), plus a mid first rounder to draft best available mid, and also getting an established player in the 23-26 year age bracket.

Effectively we could tip in two more good young kids (and have the best possible chance of two A graders), and add some experience in an age bracket we are short on.

From there, next year is more development and throwing everything we have at Free Agents and Trades.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Agreed. Compound that with the fact that the free agency pool is dwindling this year and we'd therefore have to pay serious overs to get any talent to request a trade to us with a lot of clubs now out of the rebuild phase and into their 'premiership window'. And that's the major problem with trading and FA for us at the moment - sure we have a lot of money to throw at the 'right' player/s but we are probably the last club any big players want to move to. In short, trading simply isn't an option for us until we have a more viable list that is performing to an acceptable standard, and the only way to achieve that is to first draft effectively and then get results on the field.

Probably a distant concern for Carlton at the moment, but the home-grown, one-club stars are the ones who inspire lasting loyalty in a supporter base. As much as Franklin and Dangerfield are loved by their clubs, the relationship with the fans can never be the same as with a player they've watched from day one. Sometimes, Cripps is nearly enough for me to not hate Carlton. He's a ripper.

 

[Black white]

Which one?

Son of jo