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The diving thread

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Topkent said:
I hate this more as a Melbourne supporter because instead of people acknowledging he is one of the brightest young talents in the game.
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Prior to this week, he (and maybe SPP) would probably be the most talked about 1st and second year players from what I've read on big footy this year and rightly so.

Oliver went pick 3 for a reason and WITHOUT using the word "unprecedented", the way he started the year was right up there with anyone's good form. Considering his frame, he plays a tough game when it counts.(wouldn't say he's wirey at all but a lot comes with years and years in the system and he plays tougher than his frame and age generally do)

I personally think he handballs a touch more than he needs to but as long as he's racking up possessions when the ball is bounced and the clock is ticking then his footy will do FAR more talking than his silly twitter posts, and dees fans, you reap the benefits of his talents.
 
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In soccer, players pretend to be injured, in AFL players pretend they are not. This is the core cultural quality of our great sport. If you like to pretend then play soccer.
 

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Firestarter said:
Because people are smart enough to keep their hate boners tucked when he's not playing AFL footy. :rolleyes:

Never change.
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Well, I didn't see the rule that said we can't talk about past players, or players who aren't currently playing for whatever reason.
Edit: Hmmm, the tone of the OP does imply at least current players and specifies events week to week this season so....
It's a fair cop.
 
Glenhope said:
In soccer, players pretend to be injured, in AFL players pretend they are not. This is the core cultural quality of our great sport. If you like to pretend then play soccer.
Click to expand...
This is a really interesting point when you think about it.

Soccer players rarely play if they are not completely fit. In AFL it happens all the time. Plus we have have the phenomenon of Joel Selwood trying to run off the ground one minute after suffered what could well be a severe concussion, while Soccer fans endure the charade of carting out the stretcher after non-existent tackles, and the indignity of 'magic spray'. I have a theory as to why this is, but it's only a theory (also, please let it be noted that I love soccer, it's the game I played most as a junior):

Some of the explanation is about toughness through conditioning. Another part is the mindset of the game, and how much stands to be gained by simulating an injury. In Soccer, scores are so close that one penalty shot or a red card will usually swing the balance of an entire game. This is not the case in AFL. Clayton Oliver may have simulated in that incident with Will Schofield, but in the end, Will played out the game and the incident had no concrete effect on the match. If you take an outright dive in the goal square, you may get your team one goal up but it is statistically unlikely to be the difference in the match. When you factor in the possibility of being suspended for the simulation, then it becomes a very unwise act in the scheme of things.

As for players playing through injury, I think it's actually about opportunity. Most top flight European teams play multiple matches throughout the week, in their leagues, national cups and European tournaments. Star players are given a lot more licence to choose when they play, and even if they are not feeling right mid-game there is no pressure of rotations, they just get subbed out. Most players who are good enough to play for a top team would also have a raft of other offers from other clubs if they chose to leave, which they can usually do quite easily at regular intervals if they find themselves out of favour. So why would they risk life and limb to prove themselves fit for selection every week.

It's my feeling that AFL players still buy into their clubs a lot more - generally speaking. They know that they are playing in the only elite competition that exists for their sport - and if they don't make the most of their opportunities then they'll end up with another day job. I think this attitude filters up even to the leaders - like Selwood - whose spots are always safe at selection, but the pressure is still on them to lead by example.

I'd be interested to hear what others think.
 
Hawk_francais said:
This is a really interesting point when you think about it.

Soccer players rarely play if they are not completely fit. In AFL it happens all the time. Plus we have have the phenomenon of Joel Selwood trying to run off the ground one minute after suffered what could well be a severe concussion, while Soccer fans endure the charade of carting out the stretcher after non-existent tackles, and the indignity of 'magic spray'. I have a theory as to why this is, but it's only a theory (also, please let it be noted that I love soccer, it's the game I played most as a junior):

Some of the explanation is about toughness through conditioning. Another part is the mindset of the game, and how much stands to be gained by simulating an injury. In Soccer, scores are so close that one penalty shot or a red card will usually swing the balance of an entire game. This is not the case in AFL. Clayton Oliver may have simulated in that incident with Will Schofield, but in the end, Will played out the game and the incident had no concrete effect on the match. If you take an outright dive in the goal square, you may get your team one goal up but it is statistically unlikely to be the difference in the match. When you factor in the possibility of being suspended for the simulation, then it becomes a very unwise act in the scheme of things.

As for players playing through injury, I think it's actually about opportunity. Most top flight European teams play multiple matches throughout the week, in their leagues, national cups and European tournaments. Star players are given a lot more licence to choose when they play, and even if they are not feeling right mid-game there is no pressure of rotations, they just get subbed out. Most players who are good enough to play for a top team would also have a raft of other offers from other clubs if they chose to leave, which they can usually do quite easily at regular intervals if they find themselves out of favour. So why would they risk life and limb to prove themselves fit for selection every week.

It's my feeling that AFL players still buy into their clubs a lot more - generally speaking. They know that they are playing in the only elite competition that exists for their sport - and if they don't make the most of their opportunities then they'll end up with another day job. I think this attitude filters up even to the leaders - like Selwood - whose spots are always safe at selection, but the pressure is still on them to lead by example.

I'd be interested to hear what others think.
Click to expand...
Sound analysis all round (except for the bit where you said Oliver may have simulated in that incident with Will Schofield)
 
Glenhope said:
In soccer, players pretend to be injured, in AFL players pretend they are not. This is the core cultural quality of our great sport. If you like to pretend then play soccer.
Click to expand...
Serious?

I don't agree with diving, but in soccer the majority of body contact is in tackling an opponent's legs at speed, or kicking.
Guess what? It hurts. If you haven't tried it, you should do so (genuine comment, I'm surprised how many people haven't played soccer competitively yet love to pass comment about how soft it is).

And if you get tripped and you don't fall over showing you've been kicked, you generally don't get a free kick. So that's what you get. Plus the rewards are far greater in terms of potential scores, especially penalties. When the average game has between 2 and 3 goals, one goal is a lot. Imagine if a free kick in footy meant that you got 6 goals from the resultant free, what do you think would happen?

In footy, there's holding and tackling and pushing and lots of things that are free kicks that aren't innately "hurtful" (as well as plenty of things that are). And footy players "dive" and "pretend" for those just as much.
 
Hawk_francais said:
This is a really interesting point when you think about it.

Soccer players rarely play if they are not completely fit. In AFL it happens all the time. Plus we have have the phenomenon of Joel Selwood trying to run off the ground one minute after suffered what could well be a severe concussion, while Soccer fans endure the charade of carting out the stretcher after non-existent tackles, and the indignity of 'magic spray'. I have a theory as to why this is, but it's only a theory (also, please let it be noted that I love soccer, it's the game I played most as a junior):

Some of the explanation is about toughness through conditioning. Another part is the mindset of the game, and how much stands to be gained by simulating an injury. In Soccer, scores are so close that one penalty shot or a red card will usually swing the balance of an entire game. This is not the case in AFL. Clayton Oliver may have simulated in that incident with Will Schofield, but in the end, Will played out the game and the incident had no concrete effect on the match. If you take an outright dive in the goal square, you may get your team one goal up but it is statistically unlikely to be the difference in the match. When you factor in the possibility of being suspended for the simulation, then it becomes a very unwise act in the scheme of things.

As for players playing through injury, I think it's actually about opportunity. Most top flight European teams play multiple matches throughout the week, in their leagues, national cups and European tournaments. Star players are given a lot more licence to choose when they play, and even if they are not feeling right mid-game there is no pressure of rotations, they just get subbed out. Most players who are good enough to play for a top team would also have a raft of other offers from other clubs if they chose to leave, which they can usually do quite easily at regular intervals if they find themselves out of favour. So why would they risk life and limb to prove themselves fit for selection every week.

It's my feeling that AFL players still buy into their clubs a lot more - generally speaking. They know that they are playing in the only elite competition that exists for their sport - and if they don't make the most of their opportunities then they'll end up with another day job. I think this attitude filters up even to the leaders - like Selwood - whose spots are always safe at selection, but the pressure is still on them to lead by example.

I'd be interested to hear what others think.
Click to expand...
I'd disagree with a fair bit of what you've written, but only as conversation and opinion rather than "I'm right and your wrong" - there are shades of truth and myth in everything I've read on this. Soccer players do dive more than footy players for no doubt, hence why if Oliver was in an EPL match or a Champions League match he would have received a retrospective suspension of 1 to 3 games for what he did.

Very good point you make about the low scoring means the vastly greater benefit of winning a penalty (even pretending to be fouled).

However, the point about not playing when not completely fit is a pretty big myth. You've taken European teams as an example. Some players play up to 70 matches in an 11 month season including league, domestic cup competitions, European club tournaments, European Championship qualifying for country or World Cup qualifying for their country, and the Euro/WC tournaments themselves. (Ryan Giggs as an example, over a 23 year career at the top level played 672 EPL / 74 FA Cup / 41 League Cup / 157 European club / 68 National team = 1,012 games!). At a bare minimum, first team players are playing 40-45 matches in a year. Additionally there is no interchange during a game (8 of the 11 players will play a full game). The vast majority of those players are carrying injuries of a different sort than Aussie Rules, less of the impact injuries and more of the soft tissue (groin, hamstring, knee strains, ankle strains, back).

I agree with you that soccer players buy into their careers a lot more than their clubs, for the reasons you've highlighted. However the pressure on them to perform is quite severe, simply because the pay scale is far greater and the fan bases are far larger and less forgiving.
 
wing it said:
Sound analysis all round (except for the bit where you said Oliver may have simulated in that incident with Will Schofield)
Click to expand...

Here's footage of the incident I took on my Nokia 3310

dims
 

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PowerForGood said:
I'd disagree with a fair bit of what you've written, but only as conversation and opinion rather than "I'm right and your wrong" - there are shades of truth and myth in everything I've read on this. Soccer players do dive more than footy players for no doubt, hence why if Oliver was in an EPL match or a Champions League match he would have received a retrospective suspension of 1 to 3 games for what he did.
Click to expand...
Fair enough, you made some good points. I still believe that Soccer players have more of a culture of managing their own injuries. Not a lot of stories about champions league finals with broken ribs, concussion or stress fractures. Historically the expectation has been that AFL players will play through pain. When clubs gain a reputation for being 'unbreakable', it's actually a mental edge. We expect that players will bounce up when they get crunched, and coaches do too. Gary Lyon criticised that poor young Essendon bloke for not laying a tackle just after he dislocated his finger.

So understand, I'm not saying that Soccer players are precious, I'm saying that they don't experience the same pressure from fans, coaches and team mates to play injured. I believe AFL should take one firm step in that direction, or at least stop fetishising actions like players fooling medical staff to get back into the game. Selwood might have been courageous to jog from the ground, but I severely doubt that he remembers it.
 
koshari said:
i like the way Oliver goes about for the most part, but his diving antics are not a one off instance, check the 3 sec mark of this vid-

http://wwos.nine.com.au/2017/05/21/18/28/kangaroos-beat-demons-in-spiteful-clash

higgo barely touched him, if that was forcefull enough contact to drop Oliver to the ground he really should be playing netball rather than footy.

We have seen it with LT, if you keep going there you will get a rep you ultimately wont be able to shake.

carey commented on TF the other night that Oliver was a tough player and that in a contest no way any of these contacts would sent him to the ground.
Click to expand...

Yep another poor incident. I hate it. I hate everything about it because there's no second year player who puts their head over the footy like Oliver but now he has a soft tag when he is the exact opposite.
 
JADED said:
Prior to this week, he (and maybe SPP) would probably be the most talked about 1st and second year players from what I've read on big footy this year and rightly so.

Oliver went pick 3 for a reason and WITHOUT using the word "unprecedented", the way he started the year was right up there with anyone's good form. Considering his frame, he plays a tough game when it counts.(wouldn't say he's wirey at all but a lot comes with years and years in the system and he plays tougher than his frame and age generally do)

I personally think he handballs a touch more than he needs to but as long as he's racking up possessions when the ball is bounced and the clock is ticking then his footy will do FAR more talking than his silly twitter posts, and dees fans, you reap the benefits of his talents.
Click to expand...

He does a little but he has already started spreading and kicking a little more as the season has progressed. He is a tough kid. I'm sure he will show everyone this week.
 
PowerForGood said:
Serious?

I don't agree with diving, but in soccer the majority of body contact is in tackling an opponent's legs at speed, or kicking.
Guess what? It hurts. If you haven't tried it, you should do so (genuine comment, I'm surprised how many people haven't played soccer competitively yet love to pass comment about how soft it is).

And if you get tripped and you don't fall over showing you've been kicked, you generally don't get a free kick. So that's what you get. Plus the rewards are far greater in terms of potential scores, especially penalties. When the average game has between 2 and 3 goals, one goal is a lot. Imagine if a free kick in footy meant that you got 6 goals from the resultant free, what do you think would happen?

In footy, there's holding and tackling and pushing and lots of things that are free kicks that aren't innately "hurtful" (as well as plenty of things that are). And footy players "dive" and "pretend" for those just as much.
Click to expand...
Well, since I grew up in Germany soccer here is pretty much the most common sport. Whatever sports you played at school you could easily tell who was playing soccer outside of school in some club. Those went to ground whenever the copped body contact and kept lying on the floor so play stopped, teacher or others rushed to the scene just to find out nothing happened. So I'd say it is really a culture thing going with the sport.
 

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Cold Sober said:
For next season I'm going to buy one of those West Australian televisions because the one I have you still need two eyes to watch it.
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You need the same set of eyes the tribunal used ..... your TV is OK, the mechanism above the shoulders should be taken in for a reality check.
 
Topkent said:
Yep another poor incident. I hate it. I hate everything about it because there's no second year player who puts their head over the footy like Oliver but now he has a soft tag when he is the exact opposite.
Click to expand...

Only Oliver can rid himself of the soft tag .... deserves everything he will get, is he up to digging himself out of the hole he has dug for himself?
 

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