News The Hawthorn Allegations

[60 Yards Out]

The presumption of innocence is a tenet of many legal systems. I don't know of any where its universally applied: for example in our system the onus of proof is reversed in some regulated areas (eg some worksafe matters-relevant here, some professional licencing requirements).

One way "western law" or the Common Law as its known in this country is that a jury finds a Cardinal guilty of raping two boys and then, after very careful consideration, three judges find that the trial judge didn't encourage the jury to find him not guilty enough so he's not guilty.

Another example might be Normie Gallagher who took bribes from the Master builders back in the 1970s. Thee are two parties to a bribe, but the Master Builders faced the County court (flanked by an army of QCs) and took their slaps on the wrist involving 0 days gaol time, and Normie went to the Supreme Court and was gaoled.

Another example is John Elliot who among a host of horrendous business deals (eg sending 50 million bucks on a mystery tour of Belgium, Liberia and Singapore, all without the knowledge of his board, and where did it end up? Wanna guess?) did a deal with NZ that several blokes at that end went to gaol for, but not him...wonder how that went? I won't even repeat the story he allegedly offered a offered a Fed a bribe on tape, but the NCA lawyer mysteriously fumbled the slam dunk....

Another example might be Max Stuart who was fitted up for raping and killing a little girl in Ceduna in the 1950's. His alibi was ignored (he was at a brothel) and the cops bashed him and wrote a lovely confession the man (who spoke only pigdin) could not have made, and got him to "sign" it (he was illiterate). He was an Arrente man. (Incidentally his lawyer was a friend of my parents, bloke called O'Sullivan, he had to leave SA after defending Stuart because of frothing defenders of the law denying it was racist, and died in a car accident in Melbourne).

You can say "oh yes, ancient history" but his conviction stands. Can you imagine why an indigenous person might have doubts about the legal system?

Please don't imagine there is something sacred or special about our legal system or that there is some inalienable right to presumption of innocence. Kennett is a known racist and bully. Clarckson is a known bully. The law works a lot better for you if you are rich and if you are white.

Congratulations on a well-informed and compellingly-argued post. I have one point of difference, which is that I can't say whether your final comments about Kennett and Clarkson are fair.
The question for me is what inference/s we should take from the facts you've presented. Your post shows that the law is often not properly applied. While that seems true, is it relevant? To me, past injustices can never be used to cover for future injustices. If anything, they illustrate how hard society has to strive for fairness and justice going forward. There must be nothing less than a fair and just process for all the parties involved in the Hawthorn allegations.

 

[Wearmouth]

This is why the investigation is destined to fail. Western ideals will be the lens through which the allegations are viewed.

Where would you like it to be heard. Considering it is being plastered all over Western Social media. Being played out in front of Western society. And being disseminated by Western journalists. We could send it to Iceland if that make you feel better.


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[jmac70]

Where would you like it to be heard. Considering it is being plastered all over Western Social media. Being played out in front of Western society. And being disseminated by Western journalists. We could send it to Iceland if that make you feel better.


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A culturally safe space could be created that is independent of the AFL.

 

[Wearmouth]

We know, through media reports, that they want an independent investigation, free from AFL ‘influence.’

Do you reckon that will happen?

I can see how an AFL investigation wouldn’t quite be up to the task.

Is a court of law independent enough?

That way everyone will have to testify.


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[Cyclops]

I can see how an AFL investigation wouldn’t quite be up to the task.

Is a court of law independent enough?

That way everyone will have to testify.


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Its a tough situation. The stories were told in a confidential space and were leaked.

Kennett reaching for the legal court is natural, hes at an advantage there.

If i were accused in a leaked confidential document I'd be ropeable, how do you clear your name?

Probably theres not enough evidence to base an action. If there is then Kennett and Clarkson have been suckered into public denials that will trip them up either politically or legally.

Its hard to believe the story on Fagan, but remember that allegedly Buckley went to work on Treloar telling hom the other players wanted him gone.

 

[jmac70]

I can see how an AFL investigation wouldn’t quite be up to the task.

Is a court of law independent enough?

That way everyone will have to testify.


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Not culturally safe.

 

[Wearmouth]

Not culturally safe.

Well what do you suggest?


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[ZEV]

Not culturally safe.

Do you believe that Russell Jackson's article was culturally safe, or rather exploitive of all individual's and families in the matter?

 

[sr36]

Do you believe that Russell Jackson's article was culturally safe, or rather exploitive of all individual's and families in the matter?

Jackson was not trying to be culturally safe. He was reporting on a very big story about serious allegations of coercion with a racist element, in a high profile workplace, which is not exactly a safe topic.

Australia shouldn't take press freedoms for granted or undervalue they're importance. They've been historically rare and we're seeing more and more journo bashing - this wasn't a gossip column about Bailey Smith or JDG. This was genuine news - genuine journalism.

 

[jmac70]

Well what do you suggest?


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The process must be agreed upon by all participants. Involvement of Aboriginal community members is paramount. I believe this is one of the things Leon and Krak are doing at Collingwood. Creation of culturally safe process for truth telling.
Rolling in a bunch of lawyers is not going to work.

 

[MyManLynch]

This is why the investigation is destined to fail. Western ideals will be the lens through which the allegations are viewed.

I thought the allegations had taken place in the Eastern suburbs.

 

[jonbe54]

My view after reading this

So much posturing, especially from those with strong views on either side. So lttle discussion. So much point scoring.

Hope the 3 player are managing okay. Whatever has happened it seems being at the Hawks has had many negatives for them. Its hard to see a fair hearing here for any party with so many opinions formed without full knowledge. Hoping for a just outcome

I'd prefer to hope for an outcome that will force the AFL to act - not necessarily against Hawthorn alone but to make sure that kids from all ethnic backgrounds and their families are treated with consideration and respect.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

A culturally safe space could be created that is independent of the AFL.

Perhaps the accused whities will want a culturally safe environment too - or at least one that's not culturally hostile. Surely there is going to be cross questioning from the two parties as well? It can't simply be a set up where each party tells its truth without the other side being given a chance to question its veracity. The allegations are serious and will need to be put to the test.

 

[South of the Yarra]

I know some of the questions may be difficult. However, Plausible deniability…..Is not the answer.


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What are your questions?

 

[VinnieB]

You read way too much into everything. Sometimes things are just what they are. Burgoyne’s experience at the Dawks has everything to do with it. And so does any other Indigenous player who has remained on the list and has gone on to forge a successful career at the Dawks during that period.

Remember we are talking about players who were delisted after not cutting the mustard.

You are aware that there are almost 7-10 players delisted yearly from clubs. For all manner of reasons. That’s the nature of this industry. It’s sometimes brutal. It’s daunting and can come unexpectedly to many of the players. Not everyone makes it. Sometimes clubs also have to decide upon the amount of effort required to manage the e delivery of the potential that players may have. With list numbers declining. With support staff diminished. A club is forced to delist players that require too many inputs for the slim potential reward.

Maybe hearing from those guys is just as important and may shed some light on how they handled their times as AFL players. They to were drafted and had to deal with all sorts of issues. And managed to eek out stellar careers for themselves. Just like many other Indigenous players. We have two now dealing with our Indigenous boys and girls. Krak and Neon.


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Just on Burgoyne, given his seniority, I'm surprised none of the Indigenous kids would go and have a word to him about their experiences.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Just on Burgoyne, given his seniority, I'm surprised none of the Indigenous kids would go and have a word to him about their experiences.

There is very little chance any of them would have gone to him. It is not the way it works. In fact he would probably be one of the last people they would speak to.

 

[VinnieB]

There is very little chance any of them would have gone to him. It is not the way it works. In fact he would probably be one of the last people they would speak to.

apologies for my ignorance, but why would that be?

 

[jmac70]

Perhaps the accused whities will want a culturally safe environment too - or at least one that's not culturally hostile. Surely there is going to be cross questioning from the two parties as well? It can't simply be a set up where each party tells its truth without the other side being given a chance to question its veracity. The allegations are serious and will need to be put to the test.

Let’s be honest, we whities have had a culturally safe environment for quite some time.

 

[ZEV]

Let’s be honest, we whities have had a culturally safe environment for quite some time.

speak for yourself, they were shipping off family members of ours to the gas chambers just two generations ago....

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Let’s be honest, we whities have had a culturally safe environment for quite some time.

Whilst I agree with you, the allegations made here cannot be examined in the kind of culturally safe environment you are insinuating. There is safety in numbers for the indigenous guys and partners involved. If this is going further, they will need to air their concerns in an environment which does not meet your strict culturally sensitive criteria. With good representation, they should be fine.

 

[HFF]

Not the place for this but fancy a CEO resigning a day after taking the job lol

 

[gouki88]

speak for yourself, they were shipping off family members of ours to the gas chambers just two generations ago....

Which was on a different continent...?

 

[The Ghost of the KPF]

Not the place for this but fancy a CEO resigning a day after taking the job lol

Peak Essendon continues.

And it is marvellous in my eyes

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

speak for yourself, they were shipping off family members of ours to the gas chambers just two generations ago....

Perhaps jmac needs to broaden his parameters when considering the lives and fates of white people.

 

[jmac70]

speak for yourself, they were shipping off family members of ours to the gas chambers just two generations ago....

Not sure how this is relevant to my post.