The MRA phenomenon - not so new.

[Procrastinator35]

And that is the issue I have with identity politics. If we're all being exploited, its fair for feminists to say "hey we get paid 70% of what you make!", but its missing the bigger picture entirely and its a serious ****up if they think the white male worker next to them is somehow responsible for a s**t economic system.

I have female co-workers & last I checked, they get paid the same rate as me.

And our current 'system' is the best we as a human society, have so far come up with.

Thus far, your points bespeak of ideological nonsense.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

I have female co-workers & last I checked, they get paid the same rate as me.

And our current 'system' is the best we as a human society, have so far come up with.

Thus far, your points bespeak of ideological nonsense.

Your personal situation is completely irrelevant to the point being made, you narcissist.

And you've completely misunderstood a very basic point at that.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Your personal situation is completely irrelevant to the point being made, you narcissist.

And you've completely misunderstood a very basic point at that.

No, it's not....Reality trumps ideology every-time.

Your generalizations & naive ideology won't cut it in this forum.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

No, it's not....Reality trumps ideology every-time.

Your generalizations & naive ideology won't cut it in this forum.

I really don't think you understand what I said.

I can't help you with this.

 

[Procrastinator35]

I really don't think you understand what I said.

I can't help you with this.

I understood full well what you said, & now you're beating a hasty retreat, because you can't defend your empty BS.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

I understood full well what you said, & now you're beating a hasty retreat, because you can't defend your empty BS.

No seriously you really didn't. And I'm embarrassed for you at this point.

 

[CM86]

Procrastinator once again giving a great demonstration that he knows of words, but is completely out of his depth when he can't just quote other people.

 

[Lester Burnham]

I always saw it as an extreme push back against increasingly extreme feminist views. Either way, I wouldn't want much to do with anyone that has hardcore views on either end of the spectrum.

it's not extreme to push back against extreme feminist views and you don't have to be an MRA to argue against the nonsense that the extreme feminist ideology is trying to make mainstream in our society.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Procrastinator once again giving a great demonstration that he knows of words, but is completely out of his depth when he can't just quote other people.

LOL....Surely there's a salve available in the chemist shops nowadays, to ease that chip on your shoulder.

 

[Chief]

Which roles? Who is doing the heaping?

You're unaware of the various roles society tends to expect of men and women?

 

[Chief]

I have female co-workers & last I checked, they get paid the same rate as me.

And our current 'system' is the best we as a human society, have so far come up with.

Thus far, your points bespeak of ideological nonsense.

We tend to mistake things as they are with things as they ought to be. Specially when we benefit from the status quo.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

You're unaware of the various roles society tends to expect of men and women?

Having browsed a few MRA forums over the years i think this is the saddest part. You can tell quite a few of then are sensitive blokes who havent had much luck with women.

As a result theyre trying to emulate their own ideal of what a man should be (macho, aggressive etc). A good woman is all most of them really want, they just feel left behind or wronged. And they look to the past when men had clear financial domination over women and think about how awesome that would be for themselves.

But really they are victims of their own unrealistic ideas about what a man should be. A bit afraid of being themselves because it hasnt gotten them results thus far.

 

[coerced]

You're unaware of the various roles society tends to expect of men and women?

I'm aware of the theory, however I doubt the theory even approaches the truth.

What is meant by society? And what are the roles?

Who acts contrary to how they truly want to because of society?

 

[Procrastinator35]

Having browsed a few MRA forums over the years i think this is the saddest part. You can tell quite a few of then are sensitive blokes who havent had much luck with women.

As a result theyre trying to emulate their own ideal of what a man should be (macho, aggressive etc). A good woman is all most of them really want, they just feel left behind or wronged. And they look to the past when men had clear financial domination over women and think about how awesome that would be for themselves.

But really they are victims of their own unrealistic ideas about what a man should be. A bit afraid of being themselves because it hasnt gotten them results thus far.

It's quite amusing how you speak in the pejorative & yet mimic the exact same characteristics you attempt to ''project' onto the poor, sad, misbegotten MRA as a species.

No doubting, your generalized assumptions hold every bit as true for the man-hating feminists....Lets be consistent shall we!

Negative emotions towards the opposite sex do not discriminate according to gender....Anyone who argues that they do is either being absurd; or pushing a gender-specific, power-trope agenda.

Your narrative is blindingly transparent & as paper-thin as they come.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

It's quite amusing how you speak in the pejorative & yet mimic the exact same characteristics you attempt to ''project' onto the poor, sad, misbegotten MRA as a species.

No doubting, your generalized assumptions hold every bit as true for the man-hating feminists....Lets be consistent shall we!

Negative emotions towards the opposite sex do not discriminate according to gender....Anyone who argues that they do is either being absurd; or pushing a gender-specific, power-trope agenda.

Your narrative is blindingly transparent & as paper-thin as they come.

Again i think its clear you have failed to understand my post.

 

[Procrastinator35]

We tend to mistake things as they are with things as they ought to be. Specially when we benefit from the status quo.

Things change slowly for the betterment of humanity....Marriage equality is a good current example.

But to attempt to put all MRA in the loser, rejected, ressentiment basket, is to ignore the factors that give rise to their grievances....Anyone who claims the family court is not oriented towards a gender-bias, when it comes to children, probably needs to do a little more research on the issue.

Similarly, Society has taken heed of feminist issues & addressed imbalances, where appropriate....Equal pay being one of them.

 

[Farm Boy]

There is no MRA phenomenon, it is a MGTOW phenomenon. MRA's want rights, MGTOW do not care for rights. MRA's and PUA's belong in the same basket, they belong together. All pandering for the golden ticket.

 

[Chief]

I'm aware of the theory, however I doubt the theory even approaches the truth.

What is meant by society? And what are the roles?

Who acts contrary to how they truly want to because of society?

1. I don't know what world you live in.

2. Society. The rules, culture, laws, economics, principles, interactions, systems, religions. Society. How can you have navigated life up until this point without encountering any of these?

3. Many people. Look at, for instance, gay men who marry and have kids. Men and women who act as they are told they "should" until they realise what they really want and need to thrive.

 

[Chief]

Things change slowly for the betterment of humanity....Marriage equality is a good current example.

But to attempt to put all MRA in the loser, rejected, ressentiment basket, is to ignore the factors that give rise to their grievances....Anyone who claims the family court is not oriented towards a gender-bias, when it comes to children, probably needs to do a little more research on the issue.

I think you're being harsh. The loser, reject labels sound pretty nasty. I think they are just misguided and misinformed for the most part. As the author of this article points out.

Yes there are clueless dickheads who will never budge on their empty ideology, but anyone short of a person with severe learning impairment can work through the MRA sidetrack.

The family court does a pretty good job. The interests of the child are paramount. Would you prefer the French approach?

 

[VineyIsLORD]

There is no MRA phenomenon, it is a MGTOW phenomenon. MRA's want rights, MGTOW do not care for rights. MRA's and PUA's belong in the same basket, they belong together. All pandering for the golden ticket.

MGTOW are just a slightly different cult from MRA's, but as long as the keep to themselves, and don't murder people out of rage like some MRA's have done - I think most people will be totally ok with thtat.

 

[CitizenU]

Im gonna draw on a personal anecdote at this point..heading somewhere with this, so bare with me.

I am a divorced father of one (daughter, aged 5, lives with her mother full time)....fairly acromonious split, but as I wished to try to keep things as civil as possible with a view to one day trying to forge a healthy positive co-parenting dynamic for the sake of our daughter, I rolled over and basically let my ex wife keep everything.

The house. The car. The papers too my boat. The lot.

I also chose to provide healthy additional fortnightly financial support to my ex wife over and above my required CSA payments to her for our daughter.

My rationale for all in addition to trying to foster good will for the future, was I am doing this for my daughter, I want her to grow up in her own stable home, be able to decorate her own bedroom etc etc etc.

This sort of good will on my part, eventually came back to bite me on the arse.

My ex was still verbally abusive, still used our daughter as a pawn to get at me, never appreciated a thing, and even after entering a new defacto relationship with a FIFO worker on substantially more money than I was, still threatened to block me having access to our daughter when I told her that the additional financial support I provided her would have to stop as I felt the weekly workload I had taken on via a 2nd job was effecting my health etc etc.

All through this, family and friends chastised me for being a doormat and that I needed to look after myself etc etc. I was also constantly drilled and scouted by an also divorced work colleague who was part of a 'justice for dads' type movement....as much as I could empathise with the guys in terms of the anquish of not being a part of your child's life etc, I personally found the scene to be entirely toxic, bitter, and cancerous....i don't want to hate women and view them all as 'greedy cxxxx', because quite frankly they aren't.

Having said that, my own personal experience has shown me that there truly is a need for some manner of men's support movement in terms of parental rights etc....I toughed it out on my own for a couple of years, until I finally reached out to Lifelines seperated fathers area for advice and my life began to move in better direction, but it would of been great to have some kind of support network of blokes such as myself who don't want to stand around feeding off each other's anger, warping each other's views and attitudes about women with bitterness and hatred.

I get where the anger comes from, but it's not something I see as healthy, or liable to assist my life.

So to me there are two clear groups....you have those guys, angry and bitter and keen to spew misogynist bile, but not nessecarily driven by an inate ideological hatred of women....and then you have the Julien Blanc, Return of Kings type flogs who are legitimately awful, repugnant pieces of s**t.

My view is we need to acknowledge there are legitimate issues facing non custodial fathers, that they need support and advocacy, but that must be delivered in a healthy, inclusive, positive manner.

My concern however, is that as with most things these ideology driven days, there is a real difficulty for people to grasp the idea of nuance.

I resent the idea that a father support group operating with the values I just described, would likely be automatically lumped into the MRA movement, and demonised as misogynist and sexist etc etc.

Bottom line, I passionately believe men and fathers can organise support networks and advocacy movements without it falling into the MRA stereotype, alas I'm not sure if those so opposed to the MRA type ideology would be willing to be open to tolerating that.

Would they grasp the nuance?

I would like to hope so, but I doubt it.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

Im gonna draw on a personal anecdote at this point..heading somewhere with this, so bare with me.

I am a divorced father of one (daughter, aged 5, lives with her mother full time)....fairly acromonious split, but as I wished to try to keep things as civil as possible with a view to one day trying to forge a healthy positive co-parenting dynamic for the sake of our daughter, I rolled over and basically let my ex wife keep everything.

The house. The car. The papers too my boat. The lot.

I also chose to provide healthy additional fortnightly financial support to my ex wife over and above my required CSA payments to her for our daughter.

My rationale for all in addition to trying to foster good will for the future, was I am doing this for my daughter, I want her to grow up in her own stable home, be able to decorate her own bedroom etc etc etc.

This sort of good will on my part, eventually came back to bite me on the arse.

My ex was still verbally abusive, still used our daughter as a pawn to get at me, never appreciated a thing, and even after entering a new defacto relationship with a FIFO worker on substantially more money than I was, still threatened to block me having access to our daughter when I told her that the additional financial support I provided her would have to stop as I felt the weekly workload I had taken on via a 2nd job was effecting my health etc etc.

All through this, family and friends chastised me for being a doormat and that I needed to look after myself etc etc. I was also constantly drilled and scouted by an also divorced work colleague who was part of a 'justice for dads' type movement....as much as I could empathise with the guys in terms of the anquish of not being a part of your child's life etc, I personally found the scene to be entirely toxic, bitter, and cancerous....i don't want to hate women and view them all as 'greedy cxxxx', because quite frankly they aren't.

Having said that, my own personal experience has shown me that there truly is a need for some manner of men's support movement in terms of parental rights etc....I toughed it out on my own for a couple of years, until I finally reached out to Lifelines seperated fathers area for advice and my life began to move in better direction, but it would of been great to have some kind of support network of blokes such as myself who don't want to stand around feeding off each other's anger, warping each other's views and attitudes about women with bitterness and hatred.

I get where the anger comes from, but it's not something I see as healthy, or liable to assist my life.

So to me there are two clear groups....you have those guys, angry and bitter and keen to spew misogynist bile, but not nessecarily driven by an inate ideological hatred of women....and then you have the Julien Blanc, Return of Kings type flogs who are legitimately awful, repugnant pieces of s**t.

My view is we need to acknowledge there are legitimate issues facing non custodial fathers, that they need support and advocacy, but that must be delivered in a healthy, inclusive, positive manner.

My concern however, is that as with most things these ideology driven days, there is a real difficulty for people to grasp the idea of nuance.

I resent the idea that a father support group operating with the values I just described, would likely be automatically lumped into the MRA movement, and demonised as misogynist and sexist etc etc.

Bottom line, I passionately believe men and fathers can organise support networks and advocacy movements without it falling into the MRA stereotype, alas I'm not sure if those so opposed to the MRA type ideology would be willing to be open to tolerating that.

Would they grasp the nuance?

I would like to hope so, but I doubt it.

I think most reasonable people are ok with men's support networks and there is nothing stopping those groups from existing.

People have a beef with MRA groups for precisely the reasons you stated: They're a cult driven by hatred, promoting an ideology that has led to at least one mass shooting in the US so far and probably been an influence in a number of domestic violence related murders.

If the family court system needs work and reform, there's nothing wrong with a group of people organising democratically to have it reviewed or changed. That's merely democracy at work. Its when they start getting into myth about the nature of all women and all men, and openly advocating for rape to be legalised etc. that most people view them, rightly, as complete nutters.

 

[CitizenU]

I think most reasonable people are ok with men's support networks and there is nothing stopping those groups from existing.

People have a beef with MRA groups for precisely the reasons you stated: They're a cult driven by hatred, promoting an ideology that has led to at least one mass shooting in the US so far and probably been an influence in a number of domestic violence related murders.

If the family court system needs work and reform, there's nothing wrong with a group of people organising democratically to have it reviewed or changed. That's merely democracy at work. Its when they start getting into myth about the nature of all women and all men, and openly advocating for rape to be legalised etc. that most people view them, rightly, as complete nutters.

See my real issue isn't with the crackpots on either end of the crank scale....yes they give me the shits - the MRA types for making blokes look like moronic cavemen, and the third wave feminist brigade for the way they can push overt anti male, anti father bullshit and have there views receive an intellectual and moral legitimacy which wouldn't be afforded if the gender roles were to be reversed...and the way they are able to deflect any criticism of them as sexism and misogyny etc....loathsome people also.

But the ones that s**t me the most to be honest are the ones (often male) that identify as progressive, and tolerant and culturally evolved, who will invariably respond to any man relating a personal issue/raising concerns about areas in which men are affected negatively within society etc, with some mocking, sarcastic, sneering, entirely dismissive retort suggesting they are just some 'awwww yeah middle class white men have it sooooo tough, do you want some cheese with that wine?' etc etc.

Those types of self identifying 'educated and compassionate' people are the ones that infuriate the hell out of me....because I did get screwed by the system, and it's not a self pitying middle class white man whinge or a wine to say it had a massively negative impact on my life.

I gave up everything to my ex wife and had to start completely over again in my mid 30s, because I saw being a doormat and choosing to avoid a court battle etc as being a positive thing for my daughter. I also chose to go the route of a non legally binding, informal co-parenting arrangement with my ex, as opposed to going to mediators and the court to draft a legal one, as I knew my ex's personality and knew she would see such a process as a battle to be won, rather than as an opportunity to compromise and work together in best interests of our child. As a result of that, my ex has been able to do what she wants and maintain complete control - blocking me seeing my child on a whim, dictating the time I see my child, the duration, the environment, the people present etc....and she does these things not because she is acting in interests of our child, but because she is utterly consumed by her need to control, and utter vindictiveness.

And for two years I put up with that, largely as a result of ignorance to my rights and a feeling of disempowerment to do anything about it, and eventually worked myself into clinical depression as a result of all of what she was doing, and the two jobs (85hr weeks) I was working in order to meet her financial demands for fear of her stopping me seeing my child.

And I share this story, not out of a desire for sympathy or pity, or to whine, but because I wanted to illustrate a clear, first hand example of how yes, a middle class white man in this country can have bad s**t happen to them.

So to all the white knights and social progressives out there, who mock and dismiss the idea that a white, middle class man can't possibly have anything to complain about within our society, and any statement to the contrary can simply be dismissed with a sneering roll of the eyes, and a sarcastic comment about 'awwww how hard the middle class white man has it awwww'....or an accusation that you are secretly really just sexist or misogynist or hate women etc...you don't have any idea what your talking about, and I would urge you to remember the old adage about walking a mile in another persons shoes etc.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

See my real issue isn't with the crackpots on either end of the crank scale....yes they give me the shits - the MRA types for making blokes look like moronic cavemen, and the third wave feminist brigade for the way they can push overt anti male, anti father bullshit and have there views receive an intellectual and moral legitimacy which wouldn't be afforded if the gender roles were to be reversed...and the way they are able to deflect any criticism of them as sexism and misogyny etc....loathsome people also.

But the ones that s**t me the most to be honest are the ones (often male) that identify as progressive, and tolerant and culturally evolved, who will invariably respond to any man relating a personal issue/raising concerns about areas in which men are affected negatively within society etc, with some mocking, sarcastic, sneering, entirely dismissive retort suggesting they are just some 'awwww yeah middle class white men have it sooooo tough, do you want some cheese with that wine?' etc etc.

Those types of self identifying 'educated and compassionate' people are the ones that infuriate the hell out of me....because I did get screwed by the system, and it's not a self pitying middle class white man whinge or a wine to say it had a massively negative impact on my life.

I gave up everything to my ex wife and had to start completely over again in my mid 30s, because I saw being a doormat and choosing to avoid a court battle etc as being a positive thing for my daughter. I also chose to go the route of a non legally binding, informal co-parenting arrangement with my ex, as opposed to going to mediators and the court to draft a legal one, as I knew my ex's personality and knew she would see such a process as a battle to be won, rather than as an opportunity to compromise and work together in best interests of our child. As a result of that, my ex has been able to do what she wants and maintain complete control - blocking me seeing my child on a whim, dictating the time I see my child, the duration, the environment, the people present etc....and she does these things not because she is acting in interests of our child, but because she is utterly consumed by her need to control, and utter vindictiveness.

And for two years I put up with that, largely as a result of ignorance to my rights and a feeling of disempowerment to do anything about it, and eventually worked myself into clinical depression as a result of all of what she was doing, and the two jobs (85hr weeks) I was working in order to meet her financial demands for fear of her stopping me seeing my child.

And I share this story, not out of a desire for sympathy or pity, or to whine, but because I wanted to illustrate a clear, first hand example of how yes, a middle class white man in this country can have bad s**t happen to them.

So to all the white knights and social progressives out there, who mock and dismiss the idea that a white, middle class man can't possibly have anything to complain about within our society, and any statement to the contrary can simply be dismissed with a sneering roll of the eyes, and a sarcastic comment about 'awwww how hard the middle class white man has it awwww'....or an accusation that you are secretly really just sexist or misogynist or hate women etc...you don't have any idea what your talking about, and I would urge you to remember the old adage about walking a mile in another persons shoes etc.

Agree. Its identity politics.

i.e. because white males are the least oppressed, they somehow can't be oppressed.

The reality is white males can be oppressed, and most are. They just aren't oppressed because they are white males. They're oppressed because the economic system we live under is oppressive by nature.

 

[CitizenU]

Agree. Its identity politics.

i.e. because white males are the least oppressed, they somehow can't be oppressed.

The reality is white males can be oppressed, and most are. They just aren't oppressed because they are white males. They're oppressed because the economic system we live under is oppressive by nature.

Exactly.

There is an argument my choices contributed to my own negative situation, but the reality is given the age of my child and living in a different city to my ex, I suspect no matter what I did, things likely would of ended up where they did for me regardless....except going the way I did, didn't pay to see lawyers profit from my own misery....inherently a good thing.

As I said, I try to ignore the lunatic fringes on either side, both are complete blights as far as I'm concerned....my issue lies with those members of the left, who seem unable to come to terms with the idea of a how a white, middle class male could possibly have a legitimate grievance within our society...and that however they express it, any man who dares to comment on issues surrounding the family court, CSA etc, must automatically be an rape fantasy consumed, misogynist MRA type....or a secret one, or one living in self denial, or failing that, they are just bitter and angry but they likely deserve to be because they obviously must of been a s**t husband, or a violent husband or a s**t father. Who is now just angry because he musnt be able to get a root. Etc etc.

I am none of those things.

Simply no excuse for people who self identify as being educated, progressive, tolerant, compassionate etc, to then be so incapable of rational even minded thought when it comes to an issue that effects tens of thousands of men across Australia.