The Official 2015 NBA Finals Thread...Bogut's Warriors vs Delly's Cavs

[Westy Bogan]

Congrats to all the Dubs contingent on here - djrossie Oliver King mitchzz and many more besides.

[B]Westy Bogan[/B] gets my nomination for Finals Posting MVP for providing the mirth amid a sea of reactionary drivel.

To wit...







Idjits.

Its a controversial win... Stewie put up the best numbers once again and I have not started all season....

Anyways... Carry on...

God is Great...

 

[AmericanCrow]

Mozgov, Shumpert and Smith were good signings - i agree... But they were signed out of neccesity become the team had no depth.

Marion, Miller, Jones and Perkins were not good signings... They were guys signed on reputation and not current ability.

And i didnt like the message sent by trading Wiggins and Bennett out for Love.

If I may interject a bit, a little context needs to be provided. First and foremost, Lebron coming back last summer (our summer) drastically altered the franchise's plan. Prior to Lebron coming back thru free agency, the plan was to draft Wiggins and use him and Kyrie (who had just re-upped for 5 years) as the focal point for a young team to be led by Coach Blatt. Lebron coming home (while greatly greatly appreciated and most certainly dreamed about) was never the primary plan due to the uncertainty of it all.

Once he came back home--everything changed. LeBron is 30 years old but an "old" 30 years old. Lot of mileage and wear and tear on him. Waiting on Wiggins was never, ever an option that could be done. Lebron identified Love as the third running mate he would like besides Kyrie. Wiggins was nothing more than a pick to be used in a trade--he never was in the plans nor could he be in the "win now" mode that the franchise accelerated into.

Mozgov was identified as a vital piece when Verajeo went out for the season. To get him they needed to work with New York to make all the pieces of a trade work (complex trade issues over salary cap numbers are the norm in basketball especially in the States) with Denver. We also wanted to grab Shumpert as a lock down defender but to do that New York forced us to eat JR Smith's contact because they didn't want him anymore. Jr Smith was to be only a piece of the bench and never expected to play heavy minutes.

Marion, Miller, Jones and Perkins were all brought on to be guys 10-15 on the roster. They were also all Lebron's friends (mates) most especially Miller and Jones. If you want Lebron you were always going to have to take on some of his mates. Unfortunately, for Lebron (and hopefully a lesson learned) when we lost Love and then Kyrie, it forced guys who were supposed to play roles off the bench (Delly, Jr Smith) up the chain. When that happens and you are now fielding a roster of 12 guys (which they did throughout the Finals) guys 8-12 on your bench USED to be 10-15. When they can't play at the level required in an NBA Finals (and no doubt they couldn't) you are stuck in the position Coach Blatt found himself. I have 7 guys I can legitimately play and the rest are next to worthless.

End result--lose series. (and it is a miracle that they somehow squeezed 2 wins out). Hopefully, Lebron now realizes that you can't stack the end of the bench with your mates if they can't still play in the playoffs because with injuries those guys may be needed.

 

[AmericanCrow]

As for Lebron and his shooting %, he is as well aware of it as you guys are. Lebron doesn't like it anymore than you do either. However, the team's offense was completely decimated when Love and Kyrie went down. Who else was going to score? Shumpert re-aggravated his shoulder injury which had sidelined him for three weeks in the season and while he couldn't sit out, he isn't given you offense. Jr. Smith always runs hot/cold you never know what you get from him. Delly played his ass off but he is not a scorer in the NBA. Mozgov can give you points, but he isn't naturally a primary option to score.

Lebron simply had to take a crapload of shots and try to avg 40 points a game. Even at that he didn't make up the difference of either Love or Kyrie.

So yes, his % looks fairly awful---but it was the ONLY way this team was going to be even remotely competitive. Bottom line they overachieved in the series and should really have been swept once Kyrie came off the board.

 

[stewie griffen]

While we focus on Lebrons shooting % as a reason he doesnt deserve MVP.

Iggy was 10/28 from the free throw line.... yet 14/35 from 3.

But you'd need to delve deeper into the stats, which i dont have offhand, but i'm guessing that 90% of those 3's were uncontested.

Game Score has Curry and Lebron ahead.

Then again... When they (Iggy and LBJ) shared the court James had a net rating of minus-15.5 and was held to a true shooting percentage of 46.4 percent, which skyrocketed to a net rating of plus-18.8 and 50.9 percent true shooting when they didn’t.

Which brings us to this - For the 2nd year in a row, a player won #NBAFinals MVP in part because his job was to defend LeBron James. Both years, LJ averaged > 28 pts

And just to show how much they were dependant on Bron....

Without LeBron James on the floor this series.
JR Smith 0/9 FG
Delly 0/7 FG
J. Jones 0/3 FG
Shumpert 0/2 FG
Total 0/21 FG

 

[6BTS]

While we focus on Lebrons shooting % as a reason he doesnt deserve MVP.

Iggy was 10/28 from the free throw line.... yet 14/35 from 3.

But you'd need to delve deeper into the stats, which i dont have offhand, but i'm guessing that 90% of those 3's were uncontested.

Game Score has Curry and Lebron ahead.

Then again... When they (Iggy and LBJ) shared the court James had a net rating of minus-15.5 and was held to a true shooting percentage of 46.4 percent, which skyrocketed to a net rating of plus-18.8 and 50.9 percent true shooting when they didn’t.

Which brings us to this - For the 2nd year in a row, a player won #NBAFinals MVP in part because his job was to defend LeBron James. Both years, LJ averaged > 28 pts

And just to show how much they were dependant on Bron....

Without LeBron James on the floor this series.
JR Smith 0/9 FG
Delly 0/7 FG
J. Jones 0/3 FG
Shumpert 0/2 FG
Total 0/21 FG

Good post. The concept that there is an argument that LeBron doesn't make his teammates better on the court because some people think he's a ball hog has to be some of the most amateurish criticism I've ever seen.

 

[Art Corvelay]

And although Lebron the player had an incredible series (theres no doubting that) Lebron the GM clearly didnt. (make no mistake he's the one making the decisions in Cleveland and it all started with his "return" letter that didnt include wiggins)

Did LeBron the GM injure Kyrie, Love and Varejo?

 

[didaksrightfoot]

If I may interject a bit, a little context needs to be provided. First and foremost, Lebron coming back last summer (our summer) drastically altered the franchise's plan. Prior to Lebron coming back thru free agency, the plan was to draft Wiggins and use him and Kyrie (who had just re-upped for 5 years) as the focal point for a young team to be led by Coach Blatt. Lebron coming home (while greatly greatly appreciated and most certainly dreamed about) was never the primary plan due to the uncertainty of it all.

Once he came back home--everything changed. LeBron is 30 years old but an "old" 30 years old. Lot of mileage and wear and tear on him. Waiting on Wiggins was never, ever an option that could be done. Lebron identified Love as the third running mate he would like besides Kyrie. Wiggins was nothing more than a pick to be used in a trade--he never was in the plans nor could he be in the "win now" mode that the franchise accelerated into.

Mozgov was identified as a vital piece when Verajeo went out for the season. To get him they needed to work with New York to make all the pieces of a trade work (complex trade issues over salary cap numbers are the norm in basketball especially in the States) with Denver. We also wanted to grab Shumpert as a lock down defender but to do that New York forced us to eat JR Smith's contact because they didn't want him anymore. Jr Smith was to be only a piece of the bench and never expected to play heavy minutes.

Marion, Miller, Jones and Perkins were all brought on to be guys 10-15 on the roster. They were also all Lebron's friends (mates) most especially Miller and Jones. If you want Lebron you were always going to have to take on some of his mates. Unfortunately, for Lebron (and hopefully a lesson learned) when we lost Love and then Kyrie, it forced guys who were supposed to play roles off the bench (Delly, Jr Smith) up the chain. When that happens and you are now fielding a roster of 12 guys (which they did throughout the Finals) guys 8-12 on your bench USED to be 10-15. When they can't play at the level required in an NBA Finals (and no doubt they couldn't) you are stuck in the position Coach Blatt found himself. I have 7 guys I can legitimately play and the rest are next to worthless.

End result--lose series. (and it is a miracle that they somehow squeezed 2 wins out). Hopefully, Lebron now realizes that you can't stack the end of the bench with your mates if they can't still play in the playoffs because with injuries those guys may be needed.

Very good post. And I can't disagree with anything you have said.

What I will say is this:
When Lebron signed with the Cavs I was commending him. I thought he was going to be in a great position to be a true leader to a talented group of youngsters that, although they might not have been quite as ready to win this year, but could've defined the next part of Lebrons career the same way that Magic and Worthy did for Kareem.
They gave up significant potential for what could just be a year of Kevin Love (though I am sure he will stay) but hurt their cap in the process. They also gave up a guy rated as an NBA ready defender out of College, who still had a lot to work on offensively, for a guy who is a great rebounder and offensive player but is notoriously bad and possibly lazy on defense... As you say it was a decision to win now. And I am sure it will still pay dividends and they will win a championship out of it - I just think that long term, the Cavs would've done much better by not making that trade... I don't like the message that the Cavs/Lebron were sending - that they/he didn't want to build a team and develop the players around him in the usual way, but instead wanted the instant gratification of bringing in the big names through free agency.

 

[didaksrightfoot]

Did LeBron the GM injure Kyrie, Love and Varejo?

Irving is unlucky.
But Varejao has played more than 31 games only once in the last 5 seasons.
Love had missed almost 100 games out of the last 4 seasons.

Injuries happen, but when guys are injury prone you need to be prepared for that (no matter how unlucky the actual injury). There is a reason you have 12 roster spots and not just 3 or 4.

 

[AmericanCrow]

Very good post. And I can't disagree with anything you have said.

What I will say is this:
When Lebron signed with the Cavs I was commending him. I thought he was going to be in a great position to be a true leader to a talented group of youngsters that, although they might not have been quite as ready to win this year, but could've defined the next part of Lebrons career the same way that Magic and Worthy did for Kareem.
They gave up significant potential for what could just be a year of Kevin Love (though I am sure he will stay) but hurt their cap in the process. They also gave up a guy rated as an NBA ready defender out of College, who still had a lot to work on offensively, for a guy who is a great rebounder and offensive player but is notoriously bad and possibly lazy on defense... As you say it was a decision to win now. And I am sure it will still pay dividends and they will win a championship out of it - I just think that long term, the Cavs would've done much better by not making that trade... I don't like the message that the Cavs/Lebron were sending - that they/he didn't want to build a team and develop the players around him in the usual way, but instead wanted the instant gratification of bringing in the big names through free agency.

I don't disagree with your premise either and if there was not other factors in play here your way would probably have been the way the organization went. (Aside from those mentioned above) One of those factors, is that Wiggins plays the same position as Lebron. I am not as sold as you that they would have worked cohesively together. Another very large (and also very local) issue is that Cleveland has not won a title in a major professional sport since 1964. It hurts me to even think of the close misses over my lifetime and I am not going to repeat them here. If you follow American sports at all, all you guys are probably well aware of the trials/tribulations. I can speak for many here in that we would rather just win one of something--then build for a future that may/may not happen down the road.

You are right in your assessment of Love's defense and you are right that it could be just a year. However, given the nuances of the NBA salary cap, if his agent and he have one once of sense they will opt out, re-sign with the Cavaliers for one year with a player option for a 2nd year. Long and short of it--that maximizes his payday next summer (our summer). He would be a fool leaving millions on the table to leave this summer for LA, etc...As for the team cap--they will get hit with "luxury taxes" without question for having a payroll in excess of 100 million next year--but our Owner has already said he will pay for it.

I believe baring injury they will have a real shot at winning next season---and although we may not stay on top very long, I can assure you everyone in this area doesn't care even a little bit---just win one. (before we all die! )

 

[stewie griffen]

Thks L2M4G

 

[kozi]

 

[kozi]

 

[peternorth]

While we focus on Lebrons shooting % as a reason he doesnt deserve MVP.

Iggy was 10/28 from the free throw line.... yet 14/35 from 3.

But you'd need to delve deeper into the stats, which i dont have offhand, but i'm guessing that 90% of those 3's were uncontested.

Game Score has Curry and Lebron ahead.

Then again... When they (Iggy and LBJ) shared the court James had a net rating of minus-15.5 and was held to a true shooting percentage of 46.4 percent, which skyrocketed to a net rating of plus-18.8 and 50.9 percent true shooting when they didn’t.

Which brings us to this - For the 2nd year in a row, a player won #NBAFinals MVP in part because his job was to defend LeBron James. Both years, LJ averaged > 28 pts

And just to show how much they were dependant on Bron....

Without LeBron James on the floor this series.
JR Smith 0/9 FG
Delly 0/7 FG
J. Jones 0/3 FG
Shumpert 0/2 FG
Total 0/21 FG

your post contains a lot of numbers and a nice graphic to describe i dont know what. but what im about to say maybe related.

listening to a podcast of espn guys talking about iggy winning mvp despite lebron having all time great numbers. on prima facie its like whoa wtf iggy won because of his D on lebron? like back off! thats on the face of things of course.

 

[Look2Me4Guidance]

Bogut in socks and sandals. Have some respect for Australia you fool

 

[peternorth]

Bogut in socks and sandals. Have some respect for Australia you fool

at least wear stubbies and thongs!

 

[kozi]

Bogut in socks and sandals. Have some respect for Australia you fool

haha he doesn't give a f*** what anyone thinks

 

[stewie griffen]

And the plot thickens....

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-b...-david-blatt-during-nba-finals-204950403.html

http://espn.go.com/blog/marc-stein/post/_/id/3896/lebrons-handling-of-blatt-unbecoming


I saw it from close range in my role as sideline reporter through the Finals for ESPN Radio. LeBron essentially calling timeouts and making substitutions. LeBron openly barking at Blatt after decisions he didn't like.
LeBron huddling frequently with [assistant coach Tyronn] Lue and so often looking at anyone other than Blatt.
There was LeBron, in one instance I witnessed from right behind the bench, shaking his head vociferously in protest after one play Blatt drew up in the third quarter of Game 5, amounting to the loudest nonverbal scolding you could imagine.Which forced Blatt, in front of his whole team, to wipe the board clean and draw up something else. [...]
How is any fellow Cavalier going to treat Blatt with something resembling reverence when LeBron treats him like a bench ornament in plain view?How can LeBron publicly laud his own leadership, as he so often does, when setting that sort of tone?

 

[Warsaw]

Essentially

This

Is This

 

[peternorth]

doesnt sound good for the cavs. blatt has to go. unless he accepts and likes being underminded

 

[AmericanCrow]

And the plot thickens....

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-b...-david-blatt-during-nba-finals-204950403.html

http://espn.go.com/blog/marc-stein/post/_/id/3896/lebrons-handling-of-blatt-unbecoming


I saw it from close range in my role as sideline reporter through the Finals for ESPN Radio. LeBron essentially calling timeouts and making substitutions. LeBron openly barking at Blatt after decisions he didn't like.
LeBron huddling frequently with [assistant coach Tyronn] Lue and so often looking at anyone other than Blatt.
There was LeBron, in one instance I witnessed from right behind the bench, shaking his head vociferously in protest after one play Blatt drew up in the third quarter of Game 5, amounting to the loudest nonverbal scolding you could imagine.Which forced Blatt, in front of his whole team, to wipe the board clean and draw up something else. [...]
How is any fellow Cavalier going to treat Blatt with something resembling reverence when LeBron treats him like a bench ornament in plain view?How can LeBron publicly laud his own leadership, as he so often does, when setting that sort of tone?

Lebron has done this for every single year he has been with the Cavaliers starting with Paul Silas and then Mike Brown. Only place he didn't exert that kind of attitude was in Miami because Riley (and Wade) wouldn't tolerate it. Part of the reason he came back (aside from the major one--his wife) was to be able to run roughshod over coaches again. He firmly believes his basketball knowledge is superior to that of any coach he has had at the professional level--he didn't think much of Spoelstra either, just couldn't get away with it.

 

[peternorth]