The peculiar case of anthony stevens seat in the afl hall of fame

[PhatBoy]

Selwood has the modern CV stats pad not received by the same sort of players in the 90's.

AA gurnseys are different kettle of fish now days to then.


In reality Stevens was every bit the equal of him as a footballer.

That would be true - if it was true.

but it’s not.
So it isn’t.

 

[PhatBoy]

I think there's a broad case of dementia.


Would anyone have a problem with Josh Gibson as an example in 20 years being admitted from the recent Hawks side? I doubt it after winning 2 x B&F's in premiership years in those sides.


People raising AA gurnseys of all things (especially considering with no statistical anlysis this was broadly a crap shoot in the 90's) and B&F's won when he played with Wayne ******* Carey is hilarious.


The fact he won 2 x best and fairests ahead of the Duck in his prime should of meant auto inclusion as soon as he was eligible as far as I'm concerned.

mark blicavs has won 2 best and fairests over Joel Selwood in his prime or close to it and one over dangerfield in his prime

 

[Pykie]

That would be true - if it was true.

but it’s not.
So it isn’t.

Selwood ~ 3 x B&F's, none in premiership years and only 1 whilst Ablett was at the club.


Stevens managed to take two off one of the greatest ever, Selwood did it once.

Selwood top 10 in disposals in the league? Once.

Stevens top 10 in the disposals in the league? Five times.

Stevens was equally as hard as Selwood as well.

Am I doing it right?

 

[Pykie]

mark blicavs has won 2 best and fairests over Joel Selwood in his prime or close to it and one over dangerfield in his prime

None of whom could carry Carey's bag into the ground.

None of whom did it against Ablett Jnr in his pomp.



I mean Ablett Snr only won a single B&F and it was in his first year at Geelong. Dud?

 

[Altum Volantes]

Mark Bickley was very, very good.

He was a good player - I liked him as a player and have a lot of time for the Crows of that era - many fantastic players. By my reckoning, he’s the 10th best player of that group, behind (in no real order) McLeod, Riccuito, Modra, Rehn, Hart, Smart, Jarman, Edwards, Goodwin.

That’s why he’s a pretty surprising inclusion.

 

[Fat Nyfe]

It’s a boys club, I suspect there’s a lot of vouching for past teammates and mates going on

 

[master bate]

On Bartel, when a player is one of only two to ever play 300+games, win a flag, a Brownlow and a Norm Smith in the VFL/AFL history you'd think he'd be able to get a place in the HoF (Simon Black being the other)

One thing that needs to be less emphasised in HOF discussions is team achievements and longevity. Both have little to do with the HOF.

Almost every player in it played a lot of games. If it's 220 or 350 it hardly matters. Same with the premiership. Bartel winning 3, good for him, doesn't mean he's better than someone like Buckley or Gaz Snr.

Bartel gets in though because he satisfies the true test of 'is this a player you'd tell your kids about'.

For 3 reasons:
1. The best wet weather footballer in recent history
2. Norm Smith
3. Brownlow

 

[Altum Volantes]

I think there's a broad case of dementia.


Would anyone have a problem with Josh Gibson as an example in 20 years being admitted from the recent Hawks side? I doubt it after winning 2 x B&F's in premiership years in those sides.


People raising AA gurnseys of all things (especially considering with no statistical anlysis this was broadly a crap shoot in the 90's) and B&F's won when he played with Wayne ******* Carey is hilarious.


The fact he won 2 x best and fairests ahead of the Duck in his prime should of meant auto inclusion as soon as he was eligible as far as I'm concerned.

Seriously mate?

I’m not ‘counting AAs and B&Fs’ etc.

I watched him play - he simply wasn’t an outstanding player - he was never a champion and plenty agree with that.

He was a very good player but never one of the very best midfielders in the league.

If you remember differently then good on you.

 

[PhatBoy]

Selwood ~ 3 x B&F's, none in premiership years and only 1 whilst Ablett was at the club.


Stevens managed to take two off one of the greatest ever, Selwood did it once.

Selwood top 10 in disposals in the league? Once.

Stevens top 10 in the disposals in the league? Five times.

Stevens was equally as hard as Selwood as well.

Am I doing it right?

So what. Max Rooke was equally as hard. Doesn’t make him better.

ooh he got the ball a lot.

well I’m sold.

he’s better than both Ablett’s.

 

[PhatBoy]

None of whom could carry Carey's bag into the ground.

None of whom did it against Ablett Jnr in his pomp.



I mean Ablett Snr only won a single B&F and it was in his first year at Geelong. Dud?

Your last sentence would be that of someone who is arguing against you, wouldn’t it?

 

[Bulldog1954]

Should've been dropped to the VFL in his last season.

He got hit by a golf / drinks cart at training that flaired up an Achilles injury. 5 poor games at the end due to his body letting him down after a freak incident after 359 great games doesn’t make him any less of a player.

 

[Pykie]

Seriously mate?

I’m not ‘counting AAs and B&Fs’ etc.

I watched him play - he simply wasn’t an outstanding player - he was never a champion and plenty agree with that.

He was a very good player but never one of the very best midfielders in the league.

If you remember differently then good on you.

Yet the people that watched him every match deemed him in the best 2-3 midfielders in 150 years of a club littered with gun midfielders.

It's revisionist crap. He regularly annihilated most of the names you think are far superior to him, simply because of their CV's 'on paper' from the 90's, of all era's for that stuff.

I've seen the likes of Couch and Winmar raised from the same era's of players who should be in well ahead of him (absolutely laughable), who else then?

Geelong themselves named Hocking, Goggin, Greeves, Micky and Leo Turner ahead of Couch in their TOTC.

This was prior to their great side of the 00's.

He probably wouldn't even make their updated TOTC.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Not compared to all the other players discussed in this thread. Except anthony stevens ...

And clive waterhouse.

I personally think that once people stop playing footy themselves, it takes them a few years before they forget what a truly good footballer actually is.

Once people stop playing themselves, they start to get sucked in by what they see on TV, and forget what you valued in a teammate or opponent.

Granted that rubbish 'honours' and awards like the Hall of Fame and stuff are voted on by people that have the latter perspective, and also granted that I never played with or against Bickley - the way he played and the things he did were exactly what I rated the highest as a teammate and opponent.

I don't think he ever fumbled once in his entire career, including in both GFs when everyone else on the ground was shutting themselves.

Legit champion.

 

[Altum Volantes]

Yet the people that watched him every match deemed him in the best 2-3 midfielders in 150 years of a club littered with gun midfielders.

It's revisionist crap. He regularly annihilated most of the names you think are far superior to him, simply because of their CV's 'on paper' from the 90's, of all era's for that stuff.

I've seen the likes of Couch and Winmar raised from the same era's of players who should be in well ahead of him (absolutely laughable), who else then?

Ok - I’ll say again - I don’t care about CVS re. All Australians, B&F etc.

I don’t think Stevens should be in, I’m basing that on how good a player I consider him to be. Good on him for being in North Melbourne’s TOTC - he is definitely a champion of your club.

2 contemporaries of a similar style I would compare him to are Paul Kelly and Dean Kemp (both are in already).

Kelly I think is the best of those 3, then Kemp, then Stevens.
I think the majority would agree with that order.

All 3 are fine players.

I think Kemp’s inclusion is also pretty debatable also, based on how good a player he was, how much of an impact he had on the game etc.

So with that in mind, I would say the ‘Indisputable’ line for HOF, for a midfielder of that type, in that era is Paul Kelly.

Anyone below Paul Kelly would be questionable - like Stevens - and Kemp if you like, again, both are fine players and champions OF THEIR CLUBS.

 

[Pykie]

Ok - I’ll say again - I don’t care about CVS re. All Australians, B&F etc.

I don’t think Stevens should be in, I’m basing that on how good a player I consider him to be. Good on him for being in North Melbourne’s TOTC - he is definitely a champion of your club.

2 contemporaries of a similar style I would compare him to are Paul Kelly and Dean Kemp (both are in already).

Kelly I think is the best of those 3, then Kemp, then Stevens.
I think the majority would agree with that order.

All 3 are fine players.

I think Kemp’s inclusion is also pretty debatable also, based on how good a player he was, how much of an impact he had on the game etc.

So with that in mind, I would say the ‘Indisputable’ line for HOF, for a midfielder of that type, in that era is Paul Kelly.

Anyone below Paul Kelly would be questionable - like Stevens - and Kemp if you like, again, both are fine players and champions OF THEIR CLUBS.

Would they? In your opinion maybe.


Kemps Norm Smith secured his HOF status imo.

 

[Altum Volantes]

Would they? In your opinion maybe.


Kemps Norm Smith secured his HOF status imo.

I would say that’d be a pretty common 3-2-1 personally but you are right, my opinion.

and I love Dean Kemp - he is an all time favourite, but so is someone like Daniel Kerr and I don’t think he should be in there either.

 

[Pykie]

I would say that’d be a pretty common 3-2-1 personally but you are right, my opinion.

and I love Dean Kemp - he is an all time favourite, but so is someone like Daniel Kerr and I don’t think he should be in there either.

Well, Wayne Schwass was a dual B&F winner during the same time, probably at Carey's peak.

Regularly polled top 5-10 in the brownlow from 92-96 and was in the best handful of midfielders in the league, particularly in 94 & 95.

Didn't make the North TOTC as a mid and still isn't in the HOF.

That should tell you plenty about how good Stevens was if you watched him week in and week out.



Also, lets be honest, you couldn't watch him week in and week out back then either with the TV coverage the way it was.

 

[Altum Volantes]

Also, lets be honest, you couldn't watch him week in and week out back then either with the TV coverage the way it was.

Plenty of Friday Night Footy ft. the Kangas to know how good he was though.

 

[STFU Donnie]

HOF honours should be given to Robert Klomp!!

What, the telly wasn't enough?

 

[Pykie]

Plenty of Friday Night Footy ft. the Kangas to know how good he was though.

Let me throw these names at you, I'd like to see who you deem worthy, I reckon I can make counter arguments against all of them.


Doug Hawkins
Michael Long
Gavin Brown
Mark Bickley
Shane Crawford
Peter Bell
Brad Hardie
Simon Goodwin
Lenny Hayes

 

[Altum Volantes]

Let me throw these names at you, I'd like to see who you deem worthy, I reckon I can make counter arguments against all of them.


Doug Hawkins
Michael Long
Gavin Brown
Mark Bickley
Shane Crawford
Peter Bell
Brad Hardie
Simon Goodwin
Lenny Hayes

Just Crawford as a certainty for me.

The best of Hawkins was probably just a little before my time so hard to gauge - same for Brad Hardie.

I always felt Gavin Brown was over rated but he was a good player no doubt.

Lenny Hayes....borderline.

No to the rest.

 

[Pykie]

Just Crawford as a certainty for me.

The best of Hawkins was probably just a little before my time so hard to gauge - same for Brad Hardie.

I always felt Gavin Brown was over rated but he was a good player no doubt.

Lenny Hayes....borderline.

No to the rest.

Funnily enough, I have major issues with Crawford.


He was good in 96 and 99, he was with the rest of that pack and even inferior to most for the best part of his career.

Shane Crawford never springs to mind when I associate the best midfielders, let alone the best players of the 90's/00's.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

This thread should really be about Mark Bickley. Was a toiler, not a HOF player.

272 games
0x AA
0x BnF

 

[The Passenger]

Club awards shouldn't count toward AFL Hall of Fame inclusion. Being the best of 6% of players isn't that remarkable.

I think B&F's should count for something, but only once the strength of the team is accounted for. Gary Ablett's 2 Geelong B&F's are vastly more significant than his 4 at the Suns.

 

[TBellicious]

It is NOT the AFL Hall of Fame

it is the Australian Football Hall of Fame.